MGTOWers, mostly straight and mostly narrow, don’t really spend a lot of time discussing lesbians. Lesbians, after all, are not only women, but women who like other women — you know, like like. But recently one of the regulars on MGTOWforums.com discovered the concept of “lesbian bed death” – the mythological notion that lesbians in long term relationships barely ever have sex – and, well, a very strange conversation ensued. Shade47 started off the discussion with these, er, observations:
Looks like the super hip lesbos forgot the small fact that in lesbian relations no one ends up paying for sex so it doesn’t happen…
The, “we don’t need men not even for sex.” club isn’t a banging scene these days.
I guess this outcome should have been obvious since you can’t put a hole inside of a hole. I keep trying to picture that and it sends me in a logic loop like a computer tasked with calculating infinity. I just can’t grasp how nothing going into nothing can create the best thing since sliced bread. …
Shade47 is so baffled by lesbians that he refuses to believe that they actually exist:
Do you guys think women are really lesbians or is it just another form of “look at me” attention whoring? I mean they don’t have sex, they don’t reproduce, they don’t achieve financial success like the gay male community does. In fact I’m not sure exactly what lesbians are doing in their relationships. I still don’t believe they are real. In order for two people to come together there must be a very specific purpose and attention whoring is shallow even for women. They usually only shack up for babies and money.
Drauger seconded the notion that lesbians are imaginary:
What do you think would happy [if] you put [two] hateful women in a home together? Bliss? Bitches go fucking shit nuts if some man isn’t giving them attention.
Repeat after me: there is no such thing as a Lesbian, only really confused women. Women are by nature whores that will change their whims depending on the whim, depending on what they perceive society rewarding them for, i.e. whores.
However there are such things as gay men, they are men who have made a defining choice.
Goldenfetus added some conspiracy theory to the mix:
Honestly, I think the entire homosexual scene is about attention – for both men and women. I’m not denying that there are men who are attracted to men and women who are attracted to women, but I do believe the entire ‘gay culture’ was intentionally manufactured to further destroy the birthrate, with the reward for participation being attention and the approval of their elite masters.
Avoidwomen, for his part, not only accepted the existence of lesbianism; he also predicted a big lesbian upswing in the future after more and more men Go Their Own Way:
I expect to see a big increase in lesbianism as more and more men avoid women. We know that women are far more social than men and they really hate being alone, even having cats is considered companionship. As for sex, it’s possible one lesbian couple is a dyke with high T(for a woman) so she pressures the more feminine lesbian for sex and the dyke may actually be paying for sex.
Then he returned to his favorite hobbyhorses: sexbots and “virtual reality” girls:
It will be very interesting to see how much sex men have vs. how much sex women have with their virtual reality computer generated men and women in the year 2020. I bet most men get laid everyday while women try it a few times and not bother with sex anymore when she realizes there’s no money in it. Women will use VR men for his virtual money while men will be with virtual women for virtual sex.
The Great One imagined a slightly different result:
I think that instead of a rise in lesbianism we will see a rise in bisexuality among females.
When females can’t find a man, they will settle for another female (or several pets). .. These female on female relationships will fall to the side when an available man offers a long term relationship.
Several pets? Hmm. If this guy is right, the future may bring severe cat shortages, sending the price of cats through the roof!
I’m putting all my money in cat futures right now.
Stay tuned for more on MGTOWers and lesbians. It gets even weirder.
NWO: Gay sex is awesome. So is straight sex, and lesbian sex, and group sex. Sex, in general, is a great and fun activity – assuming that all involved are consenting and what protection is needed is used. Just because you don’t approve of certain acts (or the people performing them) doesn’t mean they’re wrong or bad or evil. It pretty much means you’re a fuckwit.
FYI, we’ve been globalized ever since the Neolithic, considering that we have evidence of people trading with one another literally since we have civilizations. I mean, the libraries of Sumer have tablets detailing their trade with the Mohenjo-Daro civilization, and that was like five thousand years ago.
Leaving aside that what you’re scared of has been going on literally ever since we have written records of history, why is your response to that MUST BECOME FRIGHTENED OF BISEXUALS? Why bi people in particular?
It’s misplaced vengeance against Alexander the Great as an agent of globalization, isn’t it?
We’re not talking about majority versus minority, Simon. We’re talking about your strange belief that your subjective feelings – for example, bisexual girlfriends are scary because they might molest my sister – are somehow important or relevant to anyone other than yourself, and your associated (and even more strange) belief that it’s OK for you to make statments about, for example, the idea that bisexuals might be kind of prone to that kind of thing without in any way taking into account that what you’re saying is, you know, kind of offensive to the group of people you’re talking about.
(Also weird and illogical, but that’s a separate argument.)
@NWO
If you think nobody killed themselves before feminism, you’re terribly mistaken. The average suicide rate’s been in decline in the US since at least the 1950s, for both men and women. Eat these numbers, please.
http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html#death-rates
The suicide rate for young people went up from about the 70s to the 90s but it has since been in decline. The reasons for this are complicated and have nothing whatsoever to do with feminism.
Women are more likely to suffer from depression but men who have it are less likely to be treated. Women also attempt suicide more often (at a rate of about 3 women for every man) but more men actually complete suicide (at about the rate of 4 men to every woman). This is because men tend to choose more lethal and irreversible methods (such as shooting oneself and not medication overdose).
An MRA that actually gave a shit about men would focus on depression screening and encouraging men to seek help, making sure there are available and accessible mental health clinics in all areas, making sure that there are male therapists and psychiatrists available in schools and communities, etc. But no, owly, I’m sure telling men to stop being so pussified will actually be more helpful.
Ah, NWO.
Fucking other consenting adults who happen to be of the same sex – wrong, totally wrong.
Fucking children without any particular regard as to whether they would consent even if they were legally able to – awesome, and something that we should try to legalize.
Hey, Pecunium, lay off the goats. They are much cuter than trolls, and they also produce rather tasty milk (and cheese).
In honor of Simon I have decided that I will not project all of my fears and vague existential angst onto people with high-bridged noses. I mean, I knew a guy with a nose like that once and he was kind of a jerk, and then there was that girl in high school who looked similar. Clearly these people are dangerous, with their noses that do not look like mine.
I will not allow them near my family, as they are obviously not to be trusted.
CassandraSays: And people make awesome songs about them, too!
http://youtu.be/yVIpXPNiK4Q
WTF?! Just copying the link from the address bar used to work for youtube videos, and I know the html they give doesn’t work here… I am disappoint.
Obviously I meant “now” above, rather than “not”.
(Well, clearly I’m not actually going to go around pulling my granny away from people with high-bridged noses and going OMG DON’T YOU LOOK AT HER YOU BEAST, but you know what I mean.)
@ kathleen – I grew up partly in the Middle East, so I’m rather fond of goats. There’s just something terribly cute about their faces.
CassandraSays: I’ve heard they’re generally excellent beasts to have around. If the city would let me, I’d have a couple of chickens, a goat or two, and a beehive. MrB would have to handle the beehive (bugs have too many legs), but I’d lurk in the background, making helpful comments about being covered in BEEEEES!
“I don’t experience my own sexual desire as something nice and benign, if I go for longer time without sex or so, it will just happen that I have sometimes strong (at least for me) sexual desire in the very simple form (sorry to be blunt) of feelings like “Oh you hottie, I just would like to f+ck you.”, and then I just can’t help but ascribe the negative traits I associate with my own sexual desire to other sexual people.”
That sounds very frightening. Simon, have you ever considered talking with your doctor about taking anti-depressants? A very common side effect of SSRI use is a dramatic decrease in sex drive. I’m not saying you should consider it *just* to provoke those side effects, but your sex drive seems to be causing you a lot of distress right now. Plus, based on your comments in this (very long) thread, you seem quite unhappy right now. Your fear of complexity and so forth. It’s possible you’re in a depressive episode that hasn’t been diagnosed yet.
Really really worth talking to your doctor. You’d get some relief from the sex drive problems which are distressing you so much, and maybe you would also find your mood improving. To the point where when your depressive episode ends and you stop taking the meds, you could be much happier and in a much better place to cope with your sex drive and your anxiety over the world we live in.
No, I am NOT a doctor, nor do I play one on TV, but I am a person who’s being treated for clinical depression, and a lot of your fears and preoccupations are VERY familiar to me. Admittedly, mine manifested in very different ways, but I really think you should consider looking into whether a doctor might be able to back up my “fellow unhappy person” intuition.
Personally, I find the murder of my sex drive a major frustration, but that’s just me. I’ve decided the lack of sexual desire is something I can live with for the duration of this depressive episode, because the meds have other great features like allowing me to hold down a job and pay my mortgage right now (plus, I was single when the depression hit, so I’m not leaving a partner sexually frustrated). So I guess I’m a temporary asexual.
Formerly one of those scary bisexual women, although I promise I have always operated on a policy of full disclosure with potential romantic/sexual partners. Because like so many other women on here have told you, Dates #1 or #2 are the times to bring up stuff like that. I want to know as soon as possible if I’m hitting on a lesbian who thinks bi women don’t (or shouldn’t) exist, or if I’m hitting on a straight man who thinks my sexual orientation makes me likely to molest handicapped women. Because those right there are signs that there will not, indeed MUST not be a Date #3. Oddly enough, virtually all of my female would-be partners were extremely cool with it. Results with male would-be partners have been more…mixed. Coincidence? Small sample size? Patriarchy? Who knows.
Oh, and for the record, when you talk about “simplicity”, you’re simplifying me right out of existence. It’s kind of hurtful, so I wish you’d quit doing it. I can’t change my sexual orientation just for you to feel better about the complexity of the 21st century, because I too am living in the 21st century. And I’m very grateful that its complexity has allowed me better living through chemistry in the shape of anti-depressants helping me when I’m ill. In simpler times, I wouldn’t have had those options, and probably would have committed suicide long before now. Complicated is a GOOD thing. Now if I could just find my damn sex drive. I know I saw it around here somewhere.
@CassandraSays:
If I would believe that, this would be really strange. But I’m not insane, I don’t think there is a remote chance that this would happen.
First I hate it to feel sexual attraction.
Sadly I also find it uncomfortable when strangers are sexually attracted to me (and yes, I know how it feels, seriously a girl said to me once something like that one can see that I’m into cycling because my legs are hot…).
I also hate it when somebody feels attracted to my sister… and I would find it very creepy when my girlfriend would feel even a fleeting attraction towards my sister.
So even if that seems neurotic to you and it’s probably like playing thought police, there’s an internal logic to it. 😉
Okay Simon, so I just want to point out that where you started from was this:
Which I had originally interpreted as your thinking that bi women are likely to cheat on their partners with their female friends all the time. Maybe I’m misinterpreting what you were trying to say? In any case, now you’ve said this:
So, that’s okay. If you’re uncomfortable with dating bisexual women for this reason you have every right to not date bisexual women. But it seems to me like you’re basing your general distrust of bi women on those very specific feelings about your own life. Do you see how your personal feelings about your family (the second quote) don’t justify the much grander factual claim you’re making in the first quote?
As far as your feelings about your own sexual urges… I’m very sorry to see that you’ve had such a negative experience with them. But obviously neither I nor anybody else can tell you how to feel about your own body and thoughts. Just know that what you’re describing seems very typical, healthy, and harmless; and unless you’ve acted on some urge without the consent of your adult partner you haven’t done anything wrong.
I’m really sorry if this seems condescending; I’m incredibly sleepy and so I’m writing things that are clear and repetitive enough for foggy Viscariabrain to understand. Off to bed for me!
“First I hate it to feel sexual attraction.”
Ouch, man.
If that’s the case, you would be better off working that feeling out with a qualified therapist, instead of yelling at us about it.
Oh and also (because that comment wasn’t long enough, and me super new around here!) I personally consider it very rude and dehumanizing when strangers come up to me and tell me that they consider me sexually attractive for this or that reason. I suspect I’m not the only person commenting here who does (though I could be wrong :)). I just divorce the act of imposing their views of my body on me by telling me about it, something they can choose to do, from their being attracted to me in the first place, which they can’t help.
“I just divorce the act of imposing their views of my body on me by telling me about it, something they can choose to do, from their being attracted to me in the first place, which they can’t help.”
This! Clear as crystal!
…but I’m sure NWO and his ilk are going to SOMEHOW misinterpret this and go all, “STOP MAKING THIS WORLD A THOUGHTCRIME FEMINAZI STATE!”
Simon, seek help.
Owly, SLUT is a derogatory and hurtful term which is all about butting in someone else’s private life. According to your own words… that’s bad. So… how about stop doing it? Because you can’t both whine how other people butt in their opinions, where none are asked (and this holds true mostly about the sex lives of other people) and then do exactly the same just because you don’t like one’s lifestyle and thins those people owe something to you or your approval. Nobody owes you anything especially on the grounds how to live their lives, with how many partners so sleep/have connections/their sexual orientation. So that’s the reason why you don’t abuse people verbally.
Next, the word is NOT used only after people have ANY idea about the actual sexual life of the people they insult. It’s a word used towards any woman they dislike. It is very subjective thing about what people deem “slutty”. For some people having sex at all is slutty. Or wearing specific clothes (though it does not mean that the person actually has lots of sex, which shows how idiotic the whole word and it’s implications are) or looking a certain way (looking feminine, having big breasts, long legs or specific features).
It is used as an insult to devalue a human being on the notion that whatever kind of person she is, whatever her beliefs are, whatever her actions are… none of them matter because if the implied sex live she has.
So no… the word is not used only in regards to one’s actions, because being born is not a conscious choosing for anyone.
The word has huge negative and derogatory meaning. It says nothing about the person that implying she has sex (according than the person who says it, more than she/he approves, which means nothing, because different people have different ideas about lots of sex is, as I already explained).
And the problem? Nobody can prove that it’s not true. Hell, I have heard 10 year olds shouting “slut” and “whore” to each other and when I asked them do they know what it means, the knew. And when I asked do they really think that any of them have had sex all of them said no or looked repulsed. See… the word is used to pass judgment and to hurt. It has nothing useful or positive in it.
Owly, I have been called a slut when I politely declined an invitation for a fuckdate by a complete stranger while I was sitting in the library, working on an assignment on the grounds that 1. I am not interested 2. I have a partner.
Tell me how exactly this person assumed that I have had many sexual partners and used the word only AFTER I declined sleeping with him?
Well… you can’t, not until you think about why the word slut means something negative and how it is used against women and women only, because in our culture having sex (lots of sex) is something bad only if you are a woman.
Again, my opinion here, but being stupid as fuck hypocrite, who gets their kicks by insulting people and whining that it’s bad because he does not have full control over other people’s lives is something bad… iit would be awesome that a word explaining this existed and it was as severe and harsh as slut is in our society. But it doesn’t. Instead we have a word which can be used and IS used towards EVERY woman.
Hell, you buddies used it regularly towards people they don’t like and have the habit of saying all women are sluts.. So… dude, you fail on so many levels to create any defense for using it.
Next, explain to us, how men are killing themselves, because they are depressed and men don’t have as much emotions/are not as emotional work in your mind? It’s completely illogical.
Either men have feelings and emotions (which you and your buddies shun as something bad and “feminine”, because MASCULINITY STEREOTYPES) and that’s normal and your stereotypes fail and the society and the gender role for this bit fail as well and feminism actually is right in the fact that gender roles hurt more than do actual good and you are actually opposing something that could benefit men’s lives… or men actually are not killing themselves because they are depressed, but because… ????
I am always interested in the logic in these situations.
Because you argue that both it’s feminism’s fault that men are depressed and don’t seek help and then kill themselves (though I dind’t understand WHY it’s feminism’s fault they don’t seek help, since feminism argues people are people, not only their gender) but you also argue that men are not emotional and ridicule men who are emotional which makes many men less likely to do/say anything and thus… die.
See.. I don’t understand you. Your ideas… they are not about men’s rights per se, but only for a specific small group – not-poor, white dudes, who are masculine by the way you approve and their lives. That’s… not men’s rights… and that’s what YOU are showing and saying with your own words. I knew almost nothing about MRA an year ago and actually thought it’s something good and positive and started reading blogs/forums…. so… the impression you give is what I described.
Gay sex is wrong… because you say so? Riiiight….
Simon = Samuel?
You know what perfectly encapsulates what the word “slut” really means in our society and the way it’s actually used? The only times that I’ve ever been called a slut, the man in question has called me that immediately after, and as a response to, me telling him that I’m not going to have sex with him. Granted that I move in less than conservative cirles, but still, not a single person has ever said to me “you slept with that guy? you slut!”, but there have been multiple cases in which someone has hit on me, I’ve declined, and then they’ve said “fuck you, slut” or “who do you think you are, you slut?” or the ever lovely “yeah well you’re a whore!” variation yelled a high volume by various homeless gentleman after I have declined their offer to let me suck their cock, or to show them my boobs.
“Slut” doesn’t mean “woman who sleeps around”, it means “woman who pissed me off, who I am attempting to hurt or humiliate”. That’s pretty much what it means when women say it to each other too, actually.
Magpie, we discussed that yesterday and I think the opinion was – no, he isn’t, because Simon is a lot more coherent than Samuel. 🙂
Oh. There’s two of them!!??
It seems so, yes.
I personally consider it very rude and dehumanizing when strangers come up to me and tell me that they consider me sexually attractive for this or that reason. I suspect I’m not the only person commenting here who does (though I could be wrong 🙂 ).
Sorry if this is going a little off-topic, but I was wondering about this. Is there an acceptable way to approach a person who you think is attractive for the purpose of just having sex with them? Like saying “hey, I thought you were hot and I was wondering if you’d want to have sex just for fun, after which we part ways and don’t form a relationship” obviously won’t get you very far with most people, but maybe that’s because we were all socialized to look down upon this kind of encounter? As long as everyone is honest and consensual, there shouldn’t be a stigma to this, should it?