MGTOWers, mostly straight and mostly narrow, don’t really spend a lot of time discussing lesbians. Lesbians, after all, are not only women, but women who like other women — you know, like like. But recently one of the regulars on MGTOWforums.com discovered the concept of “lesbian bed death” – the mythological notion that lesbians in long term relationships barely ever have sex – and, well, a very strange conversation ensued. Shade47 started off the discussion with these, er, observations:
Looks like the super hip lesbos forgot the small fact that in lesbian relations no one ends up paying for sex so it doesn’t happen…
The, “we don’t need men not even for sex.” club isn’t a banging scene these days.
I guess this outcome should have been obvious since you can’t put a hole inside of a hole. I keep trying to picture that and it sends me in a logic loop like a computer tasked with calculating infinity. I just can’t grasp how nothing going into nothing can create the best thing since sliced bread. …
Shade47 is so baffled by lesbians that he refuses to believe that they actually exist:
Do you guys think women are really lesbians or is it just another form of “look at me” attention whoring? I mean they don’t have sex, they don’t reproduce, they don’t achieve financial success like the gay male community does. In fact I’m not sure exactly what lesbians are doing in their relationships. I still don’t believe they are real. In order for two people to come together there must be a very specific purpose and attention whoring is shallow even for women. They usually only shack up for babies and money.
Drauger seconded the notion that lesbians are imaginary:
What do you think would happy [if] you put [two] hateful women in a home together? Bliss? Bitches go fucking shit nuts if some man isn’t giving them attention.
Repeat after me: there is no such thing as a Lesbian, only really confused women. Women are by nature whores that will change their whims depending on the whim, depending on what they perceive society rewarding them for, i.e. whores.
However there are such things as gay men, they are men who have made a defining choice.
Goldenfetus added some conspiracy theory to the mix:
Honestly, I think the entire homosexual scene is about attention – for both men and women. I’m not denying that there are men who are attracted to men and women who are attracted to women, but I do believe the entire ‘gay culture’ was intentionally manufactured to further destroy the birthrate, with the reward for participation being attention and the approval of their elite masters.
Avoidwomen, for his part, not only accepted the existence of lesbianism; he also predicted a big lesbian upswing in the future after more and more men Go Their Own Way:
I expect to see a big increase in lesbianism as more and more men avoid women. We know that women are far more social than men and they really hate being alone, even having cats is considered companionship. As for sex, it’s possible one lesbian couple is a dyke with high T(for a woman) so she pressures the more feminine lesbian for sex and the dyke may actually be paying for sex.
Then he returned to his favorite hobbyhorses: sexbots and “virtual reality” girls:
It will be very interesting to see how much sex men have vs. how much sex women have with their virtual reality computer generated men and women in the year 2020. I bet most men get laid everyday while women try it a few times and not bother with sex anymore when she realizes there’s no money in it. Women will use VR men for his virtual money while men will be with virtual women for virtual sex.
The Great One imagined a slightly different result:
I think that instead of a rise in lesbianism we will see a rise in bisexuality among females.
When females can’t find a man, they will settle for another female (or several pets). .. These female on female relationships will fall to the side when an available man offers a long term relationship.
Several pets? Hmm. If this guy is right, the future may bring severe cat shortages, sending the price of cats through the roof!
I’m putting all my money in cat futures right now.
Stay tuned for more on MGTOWers and lesbians. It gets even weirder.
Wait Simon, I have sisters and a brother, does that mean I can’t date anyone? XD
darskidecat… also, do you leave them in a room alone?
“Feminism will destroy itself eventually, because there won’t be any fat harpies left to promote it.”
What nugganu doesn’t realize is that women’s suffrage in the US started around the 1920s. Since that was 90 years ago, what’s actually happening is that all feminists alive today aren’t actually human, but undying vampires that pass the feminist doctrine to each new generation.
Simon: Yes, he is a whore, 100% whore, next one.
What do you think “whore” means.
What do you hope to convey by using the word whore?
Do you think that calling a man a whore has the same connotative overtones as saying of a woman?
Simon: So that’s the reason, why we have this longing for simplicity. Simplicity is comforting and makes you feel safe.
Speak for yourself. On that note, the key phrase is, “makes you feel”. It’s not true that the modern world is any more complex, at root, than the pre-modern world (or even the most recent generations removed). But a veneer of simplicity doesn’t make you safe, it just lets you believe you are.
The example you posit is no different now than it was in the past. Bisexuals have always existed.
I would argue that, if we are to accept your idea, arguendo about the greater risk bisexuals pose, you are safer for them being known, and open, and accepted, than you would be if they had to hide it.
Because that not only means you can’t know where these threatening people are, but they can’t know who is likely to also be interested, and so the odds of them making an advance to someone goes up, because it’s the only way to find ou
See, lots of people feel this way, but healthy, well-adjusted people realize that it’s a weakness of theirs and will try to become more broad-minded and learn more about the world and how it works, rather than demanding that the world stop being complex for your own personal benefit.
@Bee:
You just haven’t yet felt the full impact of 21st century complexity, it makes it pretty impossible for a human to make informed decisions except in the fields where they got a specialized higher education.
Take this example: “Can we find a way to an environmentally sustainable society without crushing the economy?”
This is a typical 21st century question, many people have an opinion about it, it’s extremely important and cannot be dismissed but to answer it in a honest way, deep knowledge of multiple different fields is necessary.
The sad thing is, they don’t tell you that they are bi!
@darksidecat:
You shouldn’t generalize what I said, my situation is special, but I’m urged not to tell my personal stories here, and I’ll stick to that.
@Sniper:
I don’t hate lesbians and I don’t hate bi women, and I don’t think they’re predatory or whatever, I just don’t want to date them. I’m always amused that you think this is so odd, you wouldn’t believe how many “Eeeeew… my boyfriend told me he’s bisexual what should I do now?” threads you can find online.
Damn if you feel significant attraction to the opposite gender, which your partner belongs to, you should tell that. Would save us a lot of trouble!
“And of course most humans are ashamed of what they are and what they do”
No, most humans are not. Some humans are, and you personally may be, but this is not something that you can make a generalised statement about based on your own subjective feelings. In fact I think that this may be part of the problem with the arguments you’re making in general – you seem to have problems differentiating between your own subjective feelings and reality in a general sense, and also to overvalue your own feelings in relation to everyone else’s. (For example, the idea that bisexual women are evil whores and seducers of the innocent because you’re afraid that a theoretical bisexual girlfriend might flirt with your sister.)
OK, this whole comment illustrates exactly what’s wrong with Simon’s argumentative position.
“And so I’m just a victim of that too, I think everybody is just to a different degree.
I know that there are bad men out there and I know that they are much more likely to be the real danger.
But to leave you girlfriend with your sister was just one of the few happy and totally innocent situations left to us, where his sexual attraction thing was an absolute non-issue, I mean, it was not even a theoretical option. This is not the case with a bisexual girlfriend.
So to put it very dramatically: it’s one more less refuge from the complexity of the world.”
Other people are not, and should not be, required to alter their behavior in order to prevent you from feeling uncomfortable about the “complexity” of the modern world. You are thinking like a child. Grow up.
You’re going to have a hard time convincing us (or anyone else) that the fact that we’re not curled up in a corner sucking our thumbs is because we just don’t understand how the world works.
You’re confused, ignorant, scared, and unhappy. For the most part, we aren’t–certainly not all four. Ergo you’re the one who’s doing it wrong.
I haven’t?????? Tell me more! Because up until now, I felt that even in areas where I’m not especially knowledgeable (and there are a lot of them), I’m at least able to maneuver to the degree that I’m not paralyzed with fear every time they come up.
How do you know this about me?
I’m an environmental law student, Simon. Trust me when I tell you that I’m able to consider the idea of balancing the environment with the economy without running and hiding under the bed.
They don’t??? Have you tried asking? Who are these bisexuals you know that are so embarrassed of their sexuality that they keep it a secret? Do you think all people who are bisexual are like that? There are actually quite a few people who you could ask right on this very website what their experiences have been in this area. Go on. Ask them!
Also, Simon, I’m very disappointed that you implied yesterday that you were sockpuppeting and so far have failed to tell us who you are. At least give us another hint.
Simon: You just haven’t yet felt the full impact of 21st century complexity, it makes it pretty impossible for a human to make informed decisions except in the fields where they got a specialized higher education.
Bullshit. Really, this is bullshit. I’m 44. I’m as much older than men on the moon as my grandmother was older than the airplane. I remember when phones didn’t fit in your pocket. I remember when cars didn’t have seatbelts,and when e-mail was something people were proud of (there were parties at conventions, “@parties” where the price of admission was to have your e-mail address on your badge).
The world has been tooo complex for anyone to understand all of it for thousands of years.
The sad thing is, they don’t tell you that they are bi!
So what? They don’t tell you if they are pedpophiles, or kleptomaniacs either. If they are moral people it doesn’t matter. If they are immoral people it doesn’t matter either. You could, I suppose, just assume that everyone you meet is a predatory bastard and act accordingly.
But it’s a miserable way to live, and the evidence says not needed.
I don’t hate lesbians and I don’t hate bi women, and I don’t think they’re predatory or whatever
Ok, you don’t hate them, but you fear them; because you believe things you admit you don’t know. As a result you what… wish they would all wear a badge so you could know where they are and take the appropriate measures to protect yourself from things you don’t know they do.
Again with the VR sex. I guess it could be useful for occasional masturbation but how could it ever compete with real sex with a real person? One of the best parts of sex is knowing the other person is having enjoying ziself (is that the gender neutral term?) and thinks you are a good partner. How can you enjoy sexual tension and chemistry with a computer program that only tells you what you program it to tell you? It’s like choosing between having a picture of a meal and eating a real meal.
If you’re afraid your girlfriend is going to molest your sister, you have bigger problems than “my girlfriend is bisexual.” That you would conflate the one with the other is both offensive and dumb, Simon.
Simon, your lament for those simpler times when women could be presumed to be asexual/only in it to please their man, therefore incapable of having sexual thoughts about your female relatives, has made my heart ache in sympathy. I am playing the world’s tiniest violin for you RIGHT NOW.
Also, if you’re referring to dogs with the “do it in the park” thing, dogs don’t normally do it in the park either, at least not in open areas. When you see one dog humping another in the park they aren’t having sex, it’s a dominance behaviour. And both dogs are usually male.
Bee, believe me, I’m not being too hard on Gus – he is a very sweet-natured dog, but intelligence is not his strong point. I wonder sometimes if he has mild brain damage from his early puppyhood. He is much nicer and probably less misogynist than Sammy was, though, so that’s something.
The “I don’t do it in public, therefore it’s bad” logic is strange on every level. Is Simon denying that there are appropriate places and times for different activities?
An edit to the dog-humping conversation: I believe that homosexuality has been observed in dogs as in many other non-human animals, so just because the humping involves two males doesn’t make it not sex. But there is a distinction between dog sex and dominance humping, and if you see it it’s usually the latter. Just wanted to clear that up.
I know, Katz! I don’t cut my toenails in public. Does that mean we should all grow them until they poke holes in our socks?
I don’t sleep in parks. Does that make sleeping bad?
Confusing.
Simon… let’s try this way… can you tell me WHY bisexual people don’t comment that they are bisexual?
I am cultural studies and journalism higher education student and some significant part of my education was about learning history, culture, ideas, stereotypes and the likes.
I can tell you a lot about stigmatisation of sex and sexuality, about gender roles and so forth.
However, I am interested… how much do you know about it that you see only the outcome that not all bisexuals tatoo their orientation on their foreheads and somehow deduce that they are sexual predators. I just want explanation and the connection.
I think if you knew the answer, you wouldn’t have been scared… but… can you answer me?
I took the Mensa quiz and found two questions with valid alternate answers. How many can you find?
So, technological change confuses and frightens you, and one day you realize that you have only two options left.
1. Learn more about stuff, maybe get a subscription to a popular science magazine or science blog.
2. Become terrified of bisexuals.
You have chosen…poorly.
@FelixBC: First off, I wasn’t demanding anything. I asked Pecunim if a “this is misogynistic” list existed. If I was being demanding, I would have said “Get me the list”.
Second, there are things that are and aren’t misogynistic. Some of them are pretty objective (e,g all women are sluts) while others are more subjective (the recent Dr,Pepper 10 ads).
I’m amused that Simon thinks getting to know about bisexuality is “deep”. It’s an orientation, not rocket science.
Then again, he seems to be fucking up on something as simple as the *definition* for bisexuality, which might make learning *anything* new daunting.
“Second, there are things that are and aren’t misogynistic.”
Brandon, if you need a *list* to figure out what is misogynistic, you’re doing it wrong. Oddly, the fact that you seem to have grasped that it’s not a thing or action itself that’s “misogyny”, but the attitude in which it is done that’s the problem. Can’t you apply certain criteria and figure out whether something’s misogynistic, rather than getting out an Approved List?
@Molly: And who gets to determine the attitude? Scores of feminists found the Dr Pepper 10 ads to be misogynistic, while many of my female friends thought it was funny, light-hearted and poked fun at both men and women.
So on one hand we have people here that would be “outraged” at the commercial. And the other who just thought it was a lighthearted commercial. So who is right in that scenario?