MGTOWers, mostly straight and mostly narrow, don’t really spend a lot of time discussing lesbians. Lesbians, after all, are not only women, but women who like other women — you know, like like. But recently one of the regulars on MGTOWforums.com discovered the concept of “lesbian bed death” – the mythological notion that lesbians in long term relationships barely ever have sex – and, well, a very strange conversation ensued. Shade47 started off the discussion with these, er, observations:
Looks like the super hip lesbos forgot the small fact that in lesbian relations no one ends up paying for sex so it doesn’t happen…
The, “we don’t need men not even for sex.” club isn’t a banging scene these days.
I guess this outcome should have been obvious since you can’t put a hole inside of a hole. I keep trying to picture that and it sends me in a logic loop like a computer tasked with calculating infinity. I just can’t grasp how nothing going into nothing can create the best thing since sliced bread. …
Shade47 is so baffled by lesbians that he refuses to believe that they actually exist:
Do you guys think women are really lesbians or is it just another form of “look at me” attention whoring? I mean they don’t have sex, they don’t reproduce, they don’t achieve financial success like the gay male community does. In fact I’m not sure exactly what lesbians are doing in their relationships. I still don’t believe they are real. In order for two people to come together there must be a very specific purpose and attention whoring is shallow even for women. They usually only shack up for babies and money.
Drauger seconded the notion that lesbians are imaginary:
What do you think would happy [if] you put [two] hateful women in a home together? Bliss? Bitches go fucking shit nuts if some man isn’t giving them attention.
Repeat after me: there is no such thing as a Lesbian, only really confused women. Women are by nature whores that will change their whims depending on the whim, depending on what they perceive society rewarding them for, i.e. whores.
However there are such things as gay men, they are men who have made a defining choice.
Goldenfetus added some conspiracy theory to the mix:
Honestly, I think the entire homosexual scene is about attention – for both men and women. I’m not denying that there are men who are attracted to men and women who are attracted to women, but I do believe the entire ‘gay culture’ was intentionally manufactured to further destroy the birthrate, with the reward for participation being attention and the approval of their elite masters.
Avoidwomen, for his part, not only accepted the existence of lesbianism; he also predicted a big lesbian upswing in the future after more and more men Go Their Own Way:
I expect to see a big increase in lesbianism as more and more men avoid women. We know that women are far more social than men and they really hate being alone, even having cats is considered companionship. As for sex, it’s possible one lesbian couple is a dyke with high T(for a woman) so she pressures the more feminine lesbian for sex and the dyke may actually be paying for sex.
Then he returned to his favorite hobbyhorses: sexbots and “virtual reality” girls:
It will be very interesting to see how much sex men have vs. how much sex women have with their virtual reality computer generated men and women in the year 2020. I bet most men get laid everyday while women try it a few times and not bother with sex anymore when she realizes there’s no money in it. Women will use VR men for his virtual money while men will be with virtual women for virtual sex.
The Great One imagined a slightly different result:
I think that instead of a rise in lesbianism we will see a rise in bisexuality among females.
When females can’t find a man, they will settle for another female (or several pets). .. These female on female relationships will fall to the side when an available man offers a long term relationship.
Several pets? Hmm. If this guy is right, the future may bring severe cat shortages, sending the price of cats through the roof!
I’m putting all my money in cat futures right now.
Stay tuned for more on MGTOWers and lesbians. It gets even weirder.
Simon: Have you met the other trolls? DKM, NWO and AntZ at the very least I would not be surprised if they argued that.
No, that shows that society thinks that it’s different from everything else, not that it is. When I say “sex is not gross”, I’m looking past all of the sex-negative bullshit that seeps through our culture and trying to see sex for what it is; a morally neutral human behavior with the potential to have incredible positive impact (and negative).
When I ask you “What is inherently wrong with sex”, I’m looking for an answer besides “society says so.” I don’t care what society says. Sometimes society is wrong.
…So? What about this is a significant argument for “Sex is icky”?
“… I hate it to no end when somebody would look at her in a sexual way. I would be mortified if I knew that my own gf would feel attraction to her. Maybe irrational, because sexual attraction is a common phenomenon that most people can manage… but, BUT, I think this is only true if we talk about grown, independent adults…”
This is from a while back, but is Simon arguing that women aren’t grown, independent adults? Or is it just that he and his gf are young?
Is this another example of obvious joking or a demonstration of how badly we argue?
Seconded!
Simon… you realise you are in a blog which mocks different misogyny examples and some of them actually argue that so it is not impossible that you can argue that seriously and we have no real way to know if you think that or not.
Right?
@Shora:
For some reason Simon doesn’t like the fact that sexual urges can only be fulfilled in specific ways, that he is forced to do things a certain way to fulfill those urges. He feels like someone is “pulling the strings” on him. Which… is kinda silly, given that he also goes to sleep when he’s tired, eats when he’s hungry, and drinks when he’s thirsty. Those can be done in different ways (sleeping in different places, eating different foods), but sex can be done in the same way (masturbating in different ways, different positions, or just abstaining).
So yeah, no great argument here either.
Simon: I read your last post and all I can say that though sex may be more complex than I presented it, the basic sex drive is just an animal instinct and very often about the body. Or why do you think sex work is a very common phenomenon? Also the wrong body is a total disqualifier.
I have no idea what means. Really, it has no subject I can discern.
And of course most humans are ashamed of what they are and what they do, and this is the reason why they want privacy and secrecy. We don’t have sex in the park that alone shows that it’s very different from everything else.
This is cultural, not essential, and to some degree fairly recent. It wasn’t until the 18th century that the idea of regularly available private space was seen as normal. The reason for the “curtain” beds was to keep the occupants warm, in large rooms heated only by fireplaces. They did give a bit of pseudo-privacy, but even kings slept with other people in the room.
If one was poor, there was not even the fiction of privacy, and entire families (sometimes more than one) shared a single room. The sex wasn’t hidden.
I’ve seen people having sex in the park (I think the first time I knew it for what it was, was about 1978). Lots of people have sex in semi-public places (bathhouses, cars, alleys, sex clubs).
In other times/places (Rome, Greece, Babylon, to name a few) sex in public was no big deal (in Babylon it was actually a religious rite; and that was a big part of the OT prohibition on prostitution; because sex with temple prostitutes was a form of religious worship/obedience to a “strange God”).
Is sex different from “everything else”. No. Because there are other things which have collected taboo from place to place/time to time (there are cultures where one doesn’t eat in the company of others; or for which eating of certain foods is forbidden to some people, and only done in private by others).
Human’s make rules about behavior (in the culture of many hunt-gather societies any sort of praise is seen as rude, and to be avoided), that’s part of what makes us human. That your culture thinks “x” is bad, special, or normal doesn’t make it so for everyone; and can’t a universally applicable moral standard, just by virtue of that.
If you want to make that case it needs real argument (such as, “all people deserve to be treated as equals”, or “so long as no one is harmed by an action it isn’t intrinisically wrong”) and then support it.
Kirby, I think that he doesn’t want to do ANYTHING he didn’t consciously choose and he dislikes all of the above mentioned activities as well but unlike them, sex can be stopped, so that’s what he means.
I think…
I don’t think “can it be done in a park” is the best litmus test for whether or not something is wrong. I mean, I don’t watch television in the park.
Uh, I don’t know Simon, were you? It sure sounded like it, but now you say you actually were what, providing us with an example of… something? So I totally believe you and am not laughing at your ridiculous “I meant to do that!” spiel at all!
Also, Simon. This is the same site that DKM frequents. If you, who have displayed misogynistic views in the past, say something egregiously misogynistic, we’ll probably believe you, because it’s pretty common to here such ridiculous and hateful statements from misogynists around here.
@Eneya:
I agree 100%.
Well, we live in a complex world, which is getting more complex every day.
And what we can’t understand becomes menacing.
We’re swamped with information everyday.
And if we don’t know what to believe or not, we feel bewildered.
So that’s the reason, why we have this longing for simplicity. Simplicity is comforting and makes you feel safe.
Maybe the wish for simplicity is even behind Meller’s ideals like the ‘feminine’, submissive women who prepare nice meals for the children.
And so I’m just a victim of that too, I think everybody is just to a different degree.
I know that there are bad men out there and I know that they are much more likely to be the real danger.
But to leave you girlfriend with your sister was just one of the few happy and totally innocent situations left to us, where his sexual attraction thing was an absolute non-issue, I mean, it was not even a theoretical option. This is not the case with a bisexual girlfriend.
So to put it very dramatically: it’s one more less refuge from the complexity of the world.
@Simon: You cannot control what other people do.
You can only control what you do.
You dragged your sister into this forum. My advice to you in future: don’t do it.
Then that sort of thing won’t happen.
More advice: you say that English is not your first language — trying to make jokes in one’s native tongue can be hard enough (I’m lousy at it), but it’s nearly impossible to make effective jokes in a second or third language. So again, probably not a good idea.
Plus, there’s a long tradition of people saying ignorant or ridiculous things on the internet (I.e. what is WRITTEN is ignorant or ridiculous), then trying to get out of it by saying “it’s a joke.” It never works. Don’t try it.
I meant “this sexual attraction” not “his”.
@Simon: At least humans have no rutting season.
Oh, you are so bad at this.
Neither do all (other) “animals.”
http://www.neatorama.com/2007/04/30/30-strangest-animal-mating-habits/
Simon… sex is not the reason people do vile stuff. Sexuality is not the reason why people abuse sexually other people. It’s done primary because people see other people as objects or because they think they have some sort of right over other people’s sexuality or that somehow their needs are more important than the needs of the rest. And a big part of it rests in patriarchy, gender and social roles. So… if you want to know that you/your sister/your girlfriend will be fine while they are alone with each other or with a man/men… the easiest way is to be sure that the world does not believe such simplicities like the one you quoted about “femininity”.
I think that that guys does not want a simple world, but a world in which he is special because he has a dick. So people like him are the type of folk you don’t want around your sister.
You are surrounded by feminists… ask and you will be answered and books will be recommended to you about sexuality, sex, gender and the like :).
Dear Simon: You know the brain is a sex organ, right?
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/374
Oh, heck, Simon, have the whole search:
http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8&ion=1&nord=1#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&nord=1&site=webhp&source=hp&q=sex%20organ%20is%20the%20brain&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&fp=2196ee66493014b2&ion=1&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2196ee66493014b2&biw=1040&bih=868&ion=1
Now you’re apparently deep into the mind/body idiocy that is such a mainstay of patriarchy — i.e. the body is inferior, the MIND of MAN (only men, because, um, women had no MINDS, not wombs travelling around causing hysteria). And I’m not gonna try to argue you out of it, but for the flying spagetti monster’s sake, please understand that there are lots and lots of people who don’t agree with that theory, and it’s JUST a theory, NOT a universally proven FACT.
So, things that Simon doesn’t understand (which must include just about everything) are frightening to him.
Rather than trying to understand these things, learn about them, think about them, do research into them, ask relevant questions about them, Simon shuts down.
And so I’m just a victim of that too, I think everybody is just to a different degree.
I think uncurious and intellectually lazy people are. But that is something that one can overcome, Simon.
I’m not even going to fucking touch the idea that finding bisexuality confusing to the point of not being able to leave your bisexual girlfriend with your sister destroys one of the remaining refuges the modern world has to offer. But I will suggest that people who don’t feel comfortable dating bisexual people shouldn’t. Problem solved! Now you can feel free to retreat to that safe sister-girlfriend retreat all you like!
@Simon: looking at your latest post above this one, all I can say is: “what do you mean WE, white man”? YOUR world is not everybody else’s, and you don’t get to assume that anybody else on this forum of elsewhere agrees with all the bullshit that is spewed in that post.
It’s a raging stew of presentism, historical ignorance, privilege, and naivete.
So don’t be surprised if nobody sympathizes with you.
And stop talking about your sister.
Crap … let’s try that again:
So, things that Simon doesn’t understand (which must include just about everything) are frightening to him.
Rather than trying to understand these things, learn about them, think about them, do research into them, ask relevant questions about them, Simon shuts down.
I think uncurious and intellectually lazy people are. But that is something that one can overcome, Simon.
I’m not even going to fucking touch the idea that finding bisexuality confusing to the point of not being able to leave your bisexual girlfriend with your sister destroys one of the remaining refuges the modern world has to offer. But I will suggest that people who don’t feel comfortable dating bisexual people shouldn’t. Problem solved! Now you can feel free to retreat to that safe sister-girlfriend retreat all you like!
The idea that lesbian or bi women are somehow more predatory than any other group is ridiculous and, frankly, offensive. Lots of teachers and daycare workers are lesbian or bi. I number several among my colleagues. They don’t prey on children or vulnerable adults because, get this, they are kind, responsible, sane people.
“At least humans have no rutting season.”
Nah, the females just get horny once a month–or even MORE OFTEN! We’re SO MUCH WORSE! 😉
Sniper… beware… in the count to 5 MRA or Owly will jump from under their rock and will shout how women abuse kids for fun so bisexual or not, daycare people abuse kids and so on.
@Eneya – I know, I know. I generally lurk because you guys move fast, but Simon’s idiocy reminded me of a colleague who was bullied by admins because of her lesbianism – great teacher, by the way.
Luckily, I don’t give a rat’s ass about what Mral or Owly have to say. Neither lives on my planet, thank goodness.