MGTOWers, mostly straight and mostly narrow, don’t really spend a lot of time discussing lesbians. Lesbians, after all, are not only women, but women who like other women — you know, like like. But recently one of the regulars on MGTOWforums.com discovered the concept of “lesbian bed death” – the mythological notion that lesbians in long term relationships barely ever have sex – and, well, a very strange conversation ensued. Shade47 started off the discussion with these, er, observations:
Looks like the super hip lesbos forgot the small fact that in lesbian relations no one ends up paying for sex so it doesn’t happen…
The, “we don’t need men not even for sex.” club isn’t a banging scene these days.
I guess this outcome should have been obvious since you can’t put a hole inside of a hole. I keep trying to picture that and it sends me in a logic loop like a computer tasked with calculating infinity. I just can’t grasp how nothing going into nothing can create the best thing since sliced bread. …
Shade47 is so baffled by lesbians that he refuses to believe that they actually exist:
Do you guys think women are really lesbians or is it just another form of “look at me” attention whoring? I mean they don’t have sex, they don’t reproduce, they don’t achieve financial success like the gay male community does. In fact I’m not sure exactly what lesbians are doing in their relationships. I still don’t believe they are real. In order for two people to come together there must be a very specific purpose and attention whoring is shallow even for women. They usually only shack up for babies and money.
Drauger seconded the notion that lesbians are imaginary:
What do you think would happy [if] you put [two] hateful women in a home together? Bliss? Bitches go fucking shit nuts if some man isn’t giving them attention.
Repeat after me: there is no such thing as a Lesbian, only really confused women. Women are by nature whores that will change their whims depending on the whim, depending on what they perceive society rewarding them for, i.e. whores.
However there are such things as gay men, they are men who have made a defining choice.
Goldenfetus added some conspiracy theory to the mix:
Honestly, I think the entire homosexual scene is about attention – for both men and women. I’m not denying that there are men who are attracted to men and women who are attracted to women, but I do believe the entire ‘gay culture’ was intentionally manufactured to further destroy the birthrate, with the reward for participation being attention and the approval of their elite masters.
Avoidwomen, for his part, not only accepted the existence of lesbianism; he also predicted a big lesbian upswing in the future after more and more men Go Their Own Way:
I expect to see a big increase in lesbianism as more and more men avoid women. We know that women are far more social than men and they really hate being alone, even having cats is considered companionship. As for sex, it’s possible one lesbian couple is a dyke with high T(for a woman) so she pressures the more feminine lesbian for sex and the dyke may actually be paying for sex.
Then he returned to his favorite hobbyhorses: sexbots and “virtual reality” girls:
It will be very interesting to see how much sex men have vs. how much sex women have with their virtual reality computer generated men and women in the year 2020. I bet most men get laid everyday while women try it a few times and not bother with sex anymore when she realizes there’s no money in it. Women will use VR men for his virtual money while men will be with virtual women for virtual sex.
The Great One imagined a slightly different result:
I think that instead of a rise in lesbianism we will see a rise in bisexuality among females.
When females can’t find a man, they will settle for another female (or several pets). .. These female on female relationships will fall to the side when an available man offers a long term relationship.
Several pets? Hmm. If this guy is right, the future may bring severe cat shortages, sending the price of cats through the roof!
I’m putting all my money in cat futures right now.
Stay tuned for more on MGTOWers and lesbians. It gets even weirder.
@ithiliana:
I just have to respond to this once more… Look at the context in which this was written! I don’t care about winning internet debates, it was just that I am accused of being a pervert who jacks off to his sister! Can it get any worse? That was just too much!
@Aloren:
Sadly, I’m not asexual, I still have sexual desires sometimes, though I could easily live as a monk.
I don’t think there are sane ways to remove sexual desire. Really, what can you do about it? Take Depo-Provera? No, I’m quite happy with my body and I don’t want to loose muscles or get osteoporosis.
Simon, I have a question… entirely theoretical and honestly, I feel horrible asking about it, but what about male friends you have and them being around your sister? Because in our culture sexual abuse happens and mentally disabled women are regularly targeted because of being helpless.
How did you get stuck with bisexuality as a main concern in regards towards sexual abuse?
Also, there is a difference between feeling attracted towards someone and acting on it. There is a huge difference between liking someone and thinking sexual thoughts about them.
Vile people unfortunately exist, even such who will do harm to others, despite being disabled or not but… that’s definitely not connected in any way with sexual orientation. You realise that. Right?
Wait, isn’t Simon the “Hitler wasn’t that bad” guy? Why are we still engaging him?
Is Simon Samuel? They seem so similar.
@kristinmh:
There it goes again. You accuse me of not being rational, using sloppy arguments… and what do you all the time?
I said in this thread more than once that I count Hitler to the top of the worst human beings ever lived.
I just said, that it is more difficult than you imagine to prove mass murdering dictators guilty. Otherwise functionalist interpretation of the Holocaust wouldn’t exist. There is no consensus about Hitler’s role in the Holocaust, that’s a fact, accept it.
And it’s even worse with Stalin. As I said we don’t know to this day if the hunger catastrophe in the Ukraine where millions died was an accident, a result of the dekulakisation, or planned by him.
So… Simon is Samuel? Because if he is not, why at all discussing Hitler since I can’t find any threads in which SIMON made any comments about Hitler or Stalin.
Or something is wrong with my searches. 🙂
Simon… are you Samuel?
Simon:
No comment.
Apparently I’m not going to get a very good answer from Simon about why sex is icky. It just is. And if you have it, or, heaven forfend, like having it, well then you’re icky too.
I am NOT Samuel.
For Christ’s sake, Snowy, this was meant as an example to show you, how a bunch of people argue here a l l t h e t i m e .
The denying evidence to the point of absurdity is the worst of it.
No, Simon writes a lot better than Samuel did. Samuel made about as much sense as I imagine my dog Gus would if he could write.
All I have to say, Simon, is that for a vegan you sure have a lot of hang-ups about being an animal. Personally I found it very freeing once I accepted that humans were part of the animal kingdom, that it was OK to have instincts and irrational urges as long as you don’t act harmfully towards others.
Snowy, that was the passage I was thinking of.
Hahhaahha oh ok Simon totally meant to do that! Come on you guys it was an example!
Speaking as an asexual, asexuality isn’t something to aspire to, any more than one should aspire to be straight or bi or gay, etc. It’s just there; it isn’t an achievement or a moral choice.
Granted, if someone wants to be celibate, that’s fine, but I don’t think it’s normal to be so viscerally opposed to sex as Simon.
Pterygotus: I swear to God, women like you only exist on the Internet, because I’ve sure as hell never met one in real life despite.
Then you need to go to different places. Because I known/have known more than I can count.
Oh, Mistress of Hounds! Don’t be so harsh on poor Gus!
Yeah, I got confused by the Samuel/Simon thing. Simon admits to being a nonnative English speaker; Samuel doesn’t. That’s the way I tell them apart.
Although Simon did imply that he was sockpuppeting in order to make things fun for us. Wasn’t that what you implied, Simon? It’s hard to tell what you “mean” to say with “words” and their endlessly flexible “definitions,” but that’s certainly what I took you to say. Come on, Simon! Rip off the mask and tell us who you really are!
Brandon: @Pecunium: Is there some objective reference sheet one can use to check if something is misogynistic? Cause to me it seems something is misogynistic when “feminists get angry at what you are saying”.
Yes, it would, because you are self-centered.
It’s the same basic rule one uses for racism, anti-semitism, ableism, etc. Descriptions of behavior which are based, not on effects, but on group membership.
White “salvaged” after Katrina but blacks were “looting”.
Women who have more than one partner are sluts, or whores, or shameless. Men are just responding to a biological imperative.
Men who wear tight shirts and jeans are fine, but women are, “flaunting their sexuality”, etc.
When someone says that ozy is a “whore” because she’s had something on the order of dozen parnters, that’s misogynistic.
If they say it about men, it’s misandric. If they use it equally they are misanthropic. Because they are using it as a value judgement, irrespective of it’s actual fact; some of those words are purely moralistic, meant to shame someone because of an act that has ethical concerns only in how it is, or isn’t, harmful to the other people involved.
Whore is both descriptive of a specific behavior (money for sex) and connotatively derogatory, in a way that call girl, escort or even prostitute isn’t.
To apply it to someone who isn’t taking money for sex is to attach that connotation to it, and bury the accusation of slut inside that insult.
Which is, structurally, misogynistic.
Pterygorous: It is true that my kind is less common than would generally be hoped, but I do know three or four people with similar tastes to mine in the real world. (Oddly, the majority of us are sluts.)
I was only using “pairbond” because Nugganu used it and saying I was really good at pairbonding because I’m poly was… a little bit snarkily intended. But nevertheless, telling someone who’s in love with two people they can’t fall in love is a bit much.
Eurosabra: …there are virgins I’ve had sex with when they gave me Skittles and I showed them movies. It was awesome. Skittles are the best! I definitely approve of Skittles/movie dates, at least for me, because they show that someone’s thoughtful and cares about me as a person (versus, say, dinner dates, where I generally can’t eat anything on the menu).
Simon sez:
Apparently Simon doesn’t know when someone is or isn’t making an argument.
Simon: If you don’t get the massive hint when I write “I have 28/30 in the mensa workout but I can’t prove it too you” then it’s not my problem. The massive hint was “I can’t prove it to you”… MASSIVE HINT, you must be extremely stupid if you think that was meant as a lie.
There is so much which is wrong to unpack in that.
I am 5’9″ tall. I can’t prove it to you.
I have very poor eyesight, and would have a great deal of difficulty functioning without modern optometry, but I can’t prove it to you.
I have a fiancée and a girlfriend, but I can’t prove it to you.
I was in the Army and sent to more than half a dozen countries to do my work, but I can’t prove it to you.
What is common to all of these that they are statements which could be true. I am asserting their truth when I say I can’t prove them.
And you said, (in your words) that you lied about the Mensa Workshop test.
So it seems I must be extremely stupid if I am going to take you at your word.
But wouldn’t it be scary if you could sense it every time someone has sexual thoughts about you? Gladly this is not possible… And it is much more creepy when its not the “young man desires young woman” type, for example, what if you knew that you regularly perform unspeakable acts in the imagination of your nice, well-mannered 73-year-old neighbor?
Scary? No. Creepy, perhaps. That it is someone who doesn’t appeal to me has not much to do with it. So long as they don’t try to force their desires on me, I don’t care what people fantasise about doing with me.
“If you don’t get the massive hint when I write “I have 28/30 in the mensa workout but I can’t prove it too you” then it’s not my problem. The massive hint was “I can’t prove it to you”… MASSIVE HINT, you must be extremely stupid if you think that was meant as a lie.”
I thought you said 26/30… Are you trying to one-up me?!? 😛 Anyway, the problem is that even if you did take the test, you still wouldn’t be able to prove it to us, or prove you didn’t look up the answers somehow, or whatever. So no, it’s not a “MASSIVE HINT,” it’s just a true statement (the “I can’t prove it to you” part).
…
“For Christ’s sake, Snowy, this was meant as an example to show you, how a bunch of people argue here a l l t h e t i m e .
The denying evidence to the point of absurdity is the worst of it.”
You… You are very bad at this. Perhaps you should stop writing things you don’t mean and start writing things you do mean, ok? Then we don’t have to start guessing whether you actually mean something horrible or you are joking, or whether you do mean something horrible but then say its a joke when it doesn’t go over well…
We can’t judge you on anything but your own words. Use them appropriately.
@Snowy:
Do you really think I’m arguing that women ARE NOT CONSCIOUS???
@kristinmh:
At least humans have no rutting season.
@Shora:
I read your last post and all I can say that though sex may be more complex than I presented it, the basic sex drive is just an animal instinct and very often about the body. Or why do you think sex work is a very common phenomenon? Also the wrong body is a total disqualifier.
And of course most humans are ashamed of what they are and what they do, and this is the reason why they want privacy and secrecy. We don’t have sex in the park that alone shows that it’s very different from everything else.
Brandon demanding a check list of “objective” standards of what is misogyny reminds me of Amanda Marcotte’s discussion of what she calls “margin-trolling”.
I think we can insert “misogyny” here for “raping” quite effectively.
The whole discussion, around “butt hurtness” and “dude rock” here: http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/the_center_and_the_margins_and_butt_hurtness
Simon: Do you really think I’m arguing that women ARE NOT CONSCIOUS???
Why shouldn’t we? When I say something, I mean it. If I am making an argument ad absurdem I say so; to avoid this sort of confusion.
But go ahead, explain what you meant when you said it was possible to extrapolate that men have feelings/emotions because you are a man, but that this wasn’t a reasonable thing to do when dealing with women.