MGTOWers, mostly straight and mostly narrow, don’t really spend a lot of time discussing lesbians. Lesbians, after all, are not only women, but women who like other women — you know, like like. But recently one of the regulars on MGTOWforums.com discovered the concept of “lesbian bed death” – the mythological notion that lesbians in long term relationships barely ever have sex – and, well, a very strange conversation ensued. Shade47 started off the discussion with these, er, observations:
Looks like the super hip lesbos forgot the small fact that in lesbian relations no one ends up paying for sex so it doesn’t happen…
The, “we don’t need men not even for sex.” club isn’t a banging scene these days.
I guess this outcome should have been obvious since you can’t put a hole inside of a hole. I keep trying to picture that and it sends me in a logic loop like a computer tasked with calculating infinity. I just can’t grasp how nothing going into nothing can create the best thing since sliced bread. …
Shade47 is so baffled by lesbians that he refuses to believe that they actually exist:
Do you guys think women are really lesbians or is it just another form of “look at me” attention whoring? I mean they don’t have sex, they don’t reproduce, they don’t achieve financial success like the gay male community does. In fact I’m not sure exactly what lesbians are doing in their relationships. I still don’t believe they are real. In order for two people to come together there must be a very specific purpose and attention whoring is shallow even for women. They usually only shack up for babies and money.
Drauger seconded the notion that lesbians are imaginary:
What do you think would happy [if] you put [two] hateful women in a home together? Bliss? Bitches go fucking shit nuts if some man isn’t giving them attention.
Repeat after me: there is no such thing as a Lesbian, only really confused women. Women are by nature whores that will change their whims depending on the whim, depending on what they perceive society rewarding them for, i.e. whores.
However there are such things as gay men, they are men who have made a defining choice.
Goldenfetus added some conspiracy theory to the mix:
Honestly, I think the entire homosexual scene is about attention – for both men and women. I’m not denying that there are men who are attracted to men and women who are attracted to women, but I do believe the entire ‘gay culture’ was intentionally manufactured to further destroy the birthrate, with the reward for participation being attention and the approval of their elite masters.
Avoidwomen, for his part, not only accepted the existence of lesbianism; he also predicted a big lesbian upswing in the future after more and more men Go Their Own Way:
I expect to see a big increase in lesbianism as more and more men avoid women. We know that women are far more social than men and they really hate being alone, even having cats is considered companionship. As for sex, it’s possible one lesbian couple is a dyke with high T(for a woman) so she pressures the more feminine lesbian for sex and the dyke may actually be paying for sex.
Then he returned to his favorite hobbyhorses: sexbots and “virtual reality” girls:
It will be very interesting to see how much sex men have vs. how much sex women have with their virtual reality computer generated men and women in the year 2020. I bet most men get laid everyday while women try it a few times and not bother with sex anymore when she realizes there’s no money in it. Women will use VR men for his virtual money while men will be with virtual women for virtual sex.
The Great One imagined a slightly different result:
I think that instead of a rise in lesbianism we will see a rise in bisexuality among females.
When females can’t find a man, they will settle for another female (or several pets). .. These female on female relationships will fall to the side when an available man offers a long term relationship.
Several pets? Hmm. If this guy is right, the future may bring severe cat shortages, sending the price of cats through the roof!
I’m putting all my money in cat futures right now.
Stay tuned for more on MGTOWers and lesbians. It gets even weirder.
Quackers: I’m not sure if relationships can actually allow cheating… cheating, definitionally, seems to be breaking the rules of your relationship. So I can have kinky sex with one boy and make out with a second and cuddle with my girlfriend at night, and not be cheating on anyone, because everyone has agreed that we’re non-exclusive. If I lied to someone and said I didn’t have other partners, that would be cheating, because that is breaking the rules of my relationship (everyone has to know about each other and insofar as possible know each other, although geography can cause some limits there).
@Pecunium: Is there some objective reference sheet one can use to check if something is misogynistic? Cause to me it seems something is misogynistic when “feminists get angry at what you are saying”.
Yea cheating was probably not the right word to use. What I meant to say was be monogamous unless you’ve established with your partner that the relationship is not a monogamous one.
Never said you were, Simon, only said you sounded like you were. This is why it’s important to think about how your words are going to sound.
Show of hands: Who thinks it sounds like Simon is jacking off to his sister? Not even going to ask who thinks it sounds like he has a bizarre relationship with his sister because I know how that vote will go.
You know, the funny part is that MRAL is totally my type, except for the hateful raging misogyny and slut-shaming bit. Shy, geeky dude who likes George R. R. Martin? Yes plz.
I swear to God, women like you only exist on the Internet, because I’ve sure as hell never met one in real life despite.
So, uh, bisexual women are all sluts and sluts all cheat? Okay then. I’m a slut and I’ve never cheated and I can meaningfully pairbond all over the place. In fact, I have occasionally pairbonded meaningfully with multiple people at once! That is, like, super-pairbonding power.
You can’t pair bond with multiple people at once, that’s almost literally the antithesis of the concept.
What makes the need for sex different than the need for any social interaction, or intellectual or spiritual needs?
…you don’t mock people for not being allowed to fulfill those last three, for starters.
Pterygotus: what do you mean by “not being allowed” to have sex?
also, umm, could we lay off simon’s sister?
Brandon,
Here is how to tell if a statemeny is misognistic.
Take your statement, and put a blank in place of the group you are talking about. So for example, “Women who are not virgins are morally reprehensable, and deserve to die alone,” would be “___________ who are not virgins are morally reprehensable, and deserve to die alone.”
Now, fill in the blank with a few other groups. Make sure to incluse *at least* one group you yourself are a part of.
Would it be wrong to make that gross generalization about those groups? Would members of the group be offended? Would you be offended, if it was said about you?
If you answered yes to any of the above, then it’s probably misogyny.
@ Magpie – I think he means “fuck you, you evil bitches who won’t have sex with me, or fulfill my emotional needs”.
There’s a certain kind of guy who can boldly state that a woman not wanting to fuck him equals women denying him sex the concept in some sort of macro sense (rather than a specific sex act with that woman at that time) and actually mean it. I wonder if they realise that part of the reason that we mock them is that their words make it clear that they don’t see us as people at all. A lot of the time the mockery is a “you can either laugh or cry, pick one” kind of response.
We mock them because fighting back is better than curling up in the corner in fear. We get that you think we’re supposed to be walking life support systems for our vaginas that just open up when you punch in the correct code, guys. Really, we get it. And since I don’t particularly wish to live my life curled up in the fetal position being afraid of the horrifying lack of ability to see women as people that those guys unintentionally reveal every time they talk about sex, mockery it is.
“I swear to God, women like you only exist on the Internet, because I’ve sure as hell never met one in real life despite.”
I know one or two of them. I swear they exists outside the internet.
“…you don’t mock people for not being allowed to fulfill those last three, for starters.”
Actually you do. People are sometimes mocked for they lack of social interaction, as in “nobody likes you, you have no friend and will die alone (with your cats)”
But you’re right, people who don’t have enough sex or too much are often mocked, and both of these mockeries are very wrong.
Simon, good idea to practice your language skills in the real world. That’s one of the easiest and fastest ways to learn to think in the foreign language you are using. No, really.
However, I have some other comments I want to make.
1. You brought the comment about your sister and your girlfriend. Which shows that… you don’t trust your partner/s on general basis which is very, very sad. And it is unfair to project your insecurities on their gender orientation or on all people from a specific sexual orientation.
Then you kind of hinted that your sister is somehow ill/disabled mentally/something else like that which makes the picture a lot more different and horrible. You actually think that if your partner is bisexual and left alone with your sister they could force themselves onto her and the only thing stopping this from happening is that your partner is not bisexual in reality? That’s fucking scary and horrible. If you have such trust issues, I urge you, seek help (or… you know, change your partner with someone you trust, because that’s not healthy at all).
2. The usage of the word whore, you brought it up by saying that you and your friends think that a woman with more than 15 partners is a whore. Yes, you didn’t explicitly pointed your finger to a woman and said “you know, I think you are a whore” BUT you also said it out loud in a big group of people you know nothing about. It’s like you said “I think all people of colour are ________”. The word whore, as I already said, has a specific meaning and social context. It is a slur and is used to insult and devalue women. Don’t you see how regularly it is used by some people in discussions? It’s like the ultimate insults towards someone, because it is so full of negative implications. It doesn’t matter if one is actually a whore, the implication is enough, because it is targeted towards reputation and interpretation one’s personality. It is a vile and a bad thing to do, because using the word means that you actively devalue people you know nothing about just because you don’t agree with their ASSUMED lifestyle and you have the need to rub that in their faces.
It has even worse consequences. It shows that the kind of attitude like that… it’s ok to judge and shame people, that it’s justified and there is nothing wrong with it. You also make people feed bad or worry about stuff like “numbers” and not actually their relationships and lives. Which is… bad.
However, you said that you will stop using it and I hope you really do.
3. The MENSA fiasco. Dude… we don’t know you, we don’t know your attitude towards MENSA or that the fact that English is not your first language. How are we supposed to know that you were joking? Joke means something to be funny/unexpected/with a twist/commenting on a social topic in someway. Saying “I have high score on Mensa” is none of the above. I understand you felt insulted by the assumptions that you are stupid but that’s directly correlated with your words and arguments. And most of them are sloppy, to say the least. Generalising negative things about a specific group is usually some kind of hate/phobia. Direct hate and comments of verbal abuse are even worse. So when you speak things that are generalisations of a group of people with the common thing – their orientation and then using a slur towards women which is rooted in deep women hate spur’s accusation in misogyny, because misogyny is about hating on women based on their gender and deviation from their stereotypically assumed “proper” actions.
4. I am not really sure that the best thing you can do is engage in such discussions. If you make a mistake between prove and proof, chances are you don’t understand everything that the other people are saying as well. English is actually my forth language and I use it for the last 15 years, even my higher education was in English and still make typos and mistakes and I don’t engage in discussions which are not in my area of expertise. I will not engage in discussions about Formula 1 in French for instance, because I know little to nothing about it. If I have a strong feeling I want to say something about it, It’s OK to have an opinion on a topic… but it is good to have an educated opinion on that topic or else you risk insulting people or saying things that come out stupid, insensitive or absurd.
re Simon: Jeez, and I thought _I_ had sexual hang ups 🙁
Arielle Shander,
“lesbian-phobia (not sure if there’s a word for that)”
sapphobia? 🙂
@Pecunium
Yes, he is a whore, 100% whore, next one.
Simon, I understand you’re answering Pecunium’s question, but calling someone a whore just after you promised not to use this slur doesn’t make much chance. Especially because of the emphasis you use: “whore, 100% whore”.
Yeah, about this comment,
“There’s a court document that a mother files to claim child support from the father. I, as the father, had to file that court document, only in reverse – I went after the mother in order to pay support.
That’s how upside down the family courts are.”
If you claimed child support, I guess that mean you had custody (or shared custody) So what are you angry at? What is so bad about the family courts? And what’s wrong about filing this form?
Simon, I know English isn’t your first language, but the word “whore” has a meaning. It’s a woman who accepts money for sex. If a woman is sleeping with multiple people, but not accepting money for it, I believe the word you’re looking for is “slut.”
Please note that both words are used to insult women, and occasionally men (though usually by appending man on the front, i.e. man-whore) based on their sex life, which is frankly no one’s business but their own. I would recommend that you drop both words from your vocabulary. You can try by stating that you dislike people who are promiscuous, but even that word carries judgement. Or you could try minding your own business.
Late to the party it seems. Man, the heading of this post alone made me spew milk from my nose.
This is just more proof that these guys are shit in bed.
” you can’t put a hole inside of a hole. I keep trying to picture that and it sends me in a logic loop like a computer tasked with calculating infinity.”
I lol’d so hard. Are these guys that stupid? There’s much more to sex than the penis in vagina bit. Yeesh!
Despite what? I see women like Ozy all the time. Most of my girl friends and I are women like ozy. We’re not as numerous as, say, the trendy sorority type, but we’re out there.
I think what she’s getting at with pair bond is “bond as a romantic pair” which you can definitely do with more than one person at a time.
So? Assuming that’s true (which, as someone pointed out above, is really not), what I’m really asking is, Why as a society, do we stigmatize sex, and also why are you buying into that stigma. Outside of arbitrary social norms, what is wrong with (consensual, safe, sane, pleasurable) sex?
Well, how is a situation of an aggregate of individual decisions not equivalent to a macro hivemind? People work by stereotype, that’s why sex for high-partner count men generally happens faster too. Alphas, more sex with more beautiful women, faster and with less social, emotional, and material investment. “Bring the movies and I’ll bring the Skittles.”
Also, in regards to the usage of the word “whore” or “slut”.
These words in our culture are mainly used as a slur towards women. Usually, but not always, women who are promiscuous. When someone calls you out on calling someone a whore, and you say “But it’s okay because I use it against men too!” It’s not okay, actually.
Putting aside for the moment the fact that you just should not shame someone for their sexuality (really, you shouldn’t, stop it), there’s also the fact that using such slurs against women is more damaging and more shaming than using such slurs against men, because we still live in a society in which it’s pretty much okay and even desired for men to sleep around, but if a women sleeps around she’s dirty and used up and worthless.
Calling a man a whore/slut and calling a women a whore/slut? Not actually the same thing.
Simon… didn’t you see the ass-long comment I have written? Seriously… fail on the 5 comments in a row consistency..
@amandajane5:
I didn’t want to use this word anymore, it was only because I answered this question.
@Magpie: Agreed 100000000000% — and while Simon has happily lied (“My Mensa score is), so it’s possible the sister is equally hypothetical, that’s not the point.
HOWEVER: @Simon: you shouldn’t be talking details about your sister on an internet forum, even under a fake name. You just shouldn’t. Especially in the context you provided–and especially when you start coming out with more info that nobody had at the start — the whole rhetorical use of your sister is skeevy, inappropriate, and ignorant. Don’t go handout out important personal information about people you love to try to ‘win’ some internet debate.
@ithliana:
If you don’t get the massive hint when I write “I have 28/30 in the mensa workout but I can’t prove it too you” then it’s not my problem. The massive hint was “I can’t prove it to you”… MASSIVE HINT, you must be extremely stupid if you think that was meant as a lie.
What ‘details’ please?
@Eneya:
Of course it would be very extreme or paranoid to think that, there are extremely few women who would do such a horrible thing.
But wouldn’t it be scary if you could sense it every time someone has sexual thoughts about you? Gladly this is not possible… And it is much more creepy when its not the “young man desires young woman” type, for example, what if you knew that you regularly perform unspeakable acts in the imagination of your nice, well-mannered 73-year-old neighbor?
I won’t use it anymore, I used it this one more time because I replied to someone.
I think you’re judging this mistake too harshly. It happened just accidentally, it would never have happened if I had written by hand, but on the keyboard if you write fast you just make these sort of mistakes from time to time. Proof is the noun, prove/proved/proven is the verb. I know that. 😉 Also it’s a pretty common mistake.
On whatever point I didn’t respond to you… that means “You’re right.”