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MRA reddit violence against men/women

MRAs cheer on the Seal Beach shooter: “Women are much more likely to pay attention when they’re being threatened.”

The suspect in custody

On Wednesday afternoon, according to reports, a man named Scott Dekraai walked into a salon in Seal Beach California and opened fire, killing eight people, including his ex-wife Michelle Fournier, his evident target.  The two, who shared custody of their son, had been entangled in an acrimonious custody dispute. (Dekraai wanted to reduce his ex’s access.) Fournier had told friends she feared her ex would try to kill her.

It’s not, unfortunately, uncommon for angry or jealous exes to harass, stalk and in many cases actually kill the objects of their obsession.  Usually the killer is a man, and the victim a woman, but women kill too, and same sex couples are hardly immune from this kind of violence.

I’ve been following this story – it’s a heartbreaking one — though I hadn’t planned to write about it. There’s no indication, at least based on what we know so far, that Dekraai’s shootings were ideologically driven, that he was anything other than a deeply troubled man, bitterly angry that he had to share custody of his son with a woman he hated. There seemed to be no clear connections between this story and the misogynist ideologues I write about on this site.

But then they started making the connections themselves, offering apologias for Dekraai’s violence and twisting the facts of the case to fit their ideological agendas. TRIGGER WARNING: Many of the comments I quote below are some of the most vile and vicious I have ever found in more than a year of writing this blog.

On In Mala Fide, Ferdinand Bardamu didn’t let the facts get in the way of his perverse ideological spin on the case, titling his post on the subject “Anti-Male, Anti-Father Divorce Laws Drive Man to Commit Heinous Rage Shooting Against Ex-Wife” and blaming feminism for “poisoning the relationship between men and women” in America.

Bardamu’s argument, such as it is, is utterly at odds with the basic facts of the case. Dekraai and Fournier had shared custody of the boy they’d had together; Dekraai was not fighting to see his child — he was trying to further limit his ex’s access.

As a local Fox News affiliate noted:

Dekraai’s former attorney, Don Eisenberg, told CNS that the two had a “typical” divorce, which was finalized on Dec. 28, 2007.

“This was not a remarkable case. It was a stipulated judgment and the parties agreed on these details,” Eisenberg said.

Under the shared custody agreement, Dekraai had the boy each week from Thursday through the weekend, and the mother had him Monday through Wednesday, the attorney said.

“It was almost an exactly equal split,” Eisenberg said.

There’s not much beyond the headline to Bardamu’s post; the real action is in the comments — many of which openly advocate violence and explicitly endorse Dekraai’s murderous rampage.

One anonymous visitor left this chilling comment:

[E]nough of this type of offensive action might just start making women and their supporters* think twice, especially if they also become targets. (* Divorce attorneys, child services workers and counselors, family court judges, and other enabling cogs in the feminist legal system)

Self-immolating Thomas Ball may have made a point, but the fact remains that he didn’t strike a blow, even as he advocated it.

Someone calling himself Remorhaz expresses a similar sentiment:

The only way this or any offensive action will make a difference is if it starts affecting the judges and lawyers. King John did not sign the magna carta because he was a kindly just ruler, he did it with a sword on the back of his neck while watching a grinning man holding an axe who was busy trying on black hoods. In Mexico entire police forces quit because a few officers go missing. If that started happening then the law becomes meaningless as there is no one to enforce it. …

Essentially men need to tell feminism to shut the fuck up, give it a vigorous slap across the face thus reminding it who is the biological superior, then order it back into the kitchen/bedroom.

In a followup comment he railed against those who expressed disapproval of the shootings:

What options other than overt acts of physical violence are there for a man to deal with a shrew ex and corrupt family court system? To those who are horrified and surprised at this one question…. why? Isn’t the real question – “How come this isn’t a lot MORE common?”. And please avoid the “Well… nothing justifies killing blah blah blah” as we’ve all voted, supported, and tolerated governments who kill over parking tickets much less loss of children. And if keeping your children isn’t worthy of killing what is exactly?

Raymond, meanwhile, directed his opprobrium at Dekraai’s ex-wife:

Hopefully one of the dead carcess was his wife. The son will be better off without any parents than to have been raised by a single mother who would have gotten her vindictive way. And to Scott, when you mess with a real man’s child, blood will be spilt. Most men will just lay down and be resigned to the state-enforced kidnapping and extortion plot, but some are made of tougher stuff and for you to whine about this dead ex-wife or that is inconsequential and no loss to humanity.

Presumably he will be pleased to learn that she was one of those killed.

Frank saw the dead as “collateral damage” in a just war; his only complaint was that Dakraai hadn’t gone after public officials.

This man went to war. He caused much collateral damage and casualties have piled. And the people whose first reaction is to cry “those poor, innocent people” are people who will never change anything. Death is the way of the world. Violence or the implicit threat of it is what causes change. Go ahead, make it clear that you don’t have it in you to destroy life. The enemy will breath a little easier, because you certainly aren’t going to make any changes.

That said, he should have gone after judges and legislators. There’s no justice like a dead “justice”.

Tweell hoped the shootings would frighten women out of challenging their husbands or ex-husbands in court:

Gandi [sic] and MLK got what they were after via non-violent means, but they were dealing with people of conscience, people who would think about the issues they espoused and not just kill them. Non-violence only works when your opponent has moral character. …

I submit that women …  are much more likely to pay attention when they’re being threatened. If it becomes obvious that claiming child abuse during divorce, withholding visitation and other such actions could result in their death, then they might think twice about such behavior.

Meanwhile, on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit, more moderate MRAs weighed in on the case. While no one explicitly defended the shooter’s actions, numerous posters said they understood the violence, and (completely ignoring the basic facts of the case) blamed it not on Dekraai but on a court system biased against men.

A poster calling himself TheRealPariah embraced Dekraai:

He is one of us. You cannot throw men struggling out simply because they do something you disagree with.

Bobsutan predicted (and came very close to endorsing) more violence,

violent outburst[s] like this will continue to happen so long as ‘kidnapping by court’ and ‘sold into slavery by court’ (via CS & alimony) keeps happening. … fix the family court system and these murders wouldn’t happen.

Moderator AnnArchist – we’ve met him before – agreed, arguing that

To prevent this in the future the solution is clear: Mandate 50/50 custody without any child support as the default

Another r/mr regular, carchamp1, took it a bit further:

I don’t condone what he did. No sane person would. But, I understand it. …  You steal someone’s kids with the help of our so-called “family” courts you’re a pig. You have it coming. Period.

I think it’s high time we put a spotlight on these kidnappers. They are NOT innocent people. They are the scum of the earth. I couldn’t care less about their “welfare”. I care about the millions of parents, mostly fathers, who’ve had their kids stolen from them AND their kids.

When I pointed out in the discussion there that Dekraai had hardly been denied access to his child,  AnnArchist changed the subject, suggesting that it was Fournier’s accusations against Dekraai in court that had pushed him over the edge. In fact, both had made numerous allegations about one another in court; Dekraai accused his ex-wife of phone harassment; she complained that he was abusive, mentally unstable and had threatened to kill her. Obviously she was right to have worried.

But according to AnnArchist, Fournier was wrong to bring up his instability in court. As he put it: “Poking the bear is dangerous.”

When I pressed him on this, he responded:

If you really think someone is nuts, you probably don’t want to be the one to call them out in open court because if they don’t go to prison they might kill you. Its tough to do with kids involved, but if she thought he was capable of something like this, using it in a custody dispute would be considered by many to be risky.

Astonished, I asked him if he was really saying what it looked like he was saying, that if you think your ex is dangerous, and literally insane, you shouldn’t challenge them in court when they try to get sole custody of your kid? His reply:

I didn’t know what to say to this bizarre argument, so I stopped responding.

I don’t know what to say to any of this. It is beyond appalling.

 

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Rutee Katreya
9 years ago

OOOK, someone definitely has some issues. Half that shit I never even talked about, the rest is just angry ad hominem rant. You should look into some kind of anger management.

Someone has issues? I’m going to bet on you and MRAL; MRAL’s are obvious and well-known, but you seem to enjoy being insulted on a blog of people smarter than you and pretending it’s not what you want. I recommend you pay a Queen, they’re much better at making sure you enjoy it and can devote their full attention for the allotted time.

My GPA is 3.7, jackass.

Because you’ve been so honest with us every other time you’ve talked about how great you are, that we’re just going to take you at face value still? XD

Pecunium
9 years ago

Broseidon: Why should you be telling anyone to calm down? It’s not your place, it’s Dave’s place.

But if you are so sensitive that you think

Broseidon: Woulda, shoulda. Are you a rational person? In other words, did you base that opinion on actual facts? If so, let’s have those facts — give me some examples of women being praised for butchering a man in response for a far lesser degree of aggression.

is over the top, and needs to have someone step away from the keyboard and take some deep breaths… perhaps public debate isn’t really for you.

Broseidon
Broseidon
9 years ago

Pecunium:
Woulda, shoulda. Are you a rational person? In other words, did you base that opinion on actual facts? If so, let’s have those facts

Fuck off, dickwad. Given how undeveloped your brain is, your preoccupation with the level of calm my tits are experiencing is a tad premature.

Nah, you’re right, I’m the one overreacting.

but you seem to enjoy being insulted on a blog of people smarter than you and pretending it’s not what you want.

Holy crap, people are hostile around here.

Amused
Amused
9 years ago

Broseidon: You lectured me on calming down and called me a piece of meat before I said “fuck off, dickwad”. So Pecunium is being absolutely accurate here when he questions your reaction to my comment about your lack of substantiation. So, we are in agreement here — you are the one overreacting, and public debate is not your thing. Plus, you demonstrate that you are cowardly and willing to misrepresent. Unlike you, I actually have objective facts as the basis for that opinion.

Broseidon
Broseidon
9 years ago

Amused: At this point it’s obvious you just want to provoke me into a fight, so I guess I’ll have to be the bigger man and walk away. By the way, calling someone “cowardly” on an internet forum just makes you look like an idiot who takes herself way too seriously. Calm your tits.

Amused
Amused
9 years ago

Broseidon: Telling someone to “calm your tits”, then claiming that it’s not an insult is cowardly. Gratuitously insulting someone is bad enough, but then backpedaling and claiming that it’s just a “popular expression” and you didn’t mean nothin’ by it demonstrates an additional lack of guts on your part. Go use that expression with your mother or your female boss.

However, since you seem to be so worried about my tits, I promise you I’ll calm then down as soon as you do me a small favor: produce evidence to back up your claim that feminist media overwhelmingly cheers women who respond to male aggression with disproportionate force. I’ll set the threshold low: 10 different entries (not republication) by 10 different feminist bloggers praising disproportionate violence by women. Since you are convinced that this happens, like, as a rule, it should only take you a few seconds to give me the links. If you do so, I promise that I will calm my tits, acknowledge you as the bigger man and apologize for calling you a dickwad. Cross my heart.

Anything less than that, however — including you “walking away” — I’ll take it as an admission on your part that you pulled your claim straight out of your cowardly ass, as a back-handed way to rationalize violence by men against women.

Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
Men's Rights Activist Lieutenant
9 years ago

Calm your vag, Amused.

Amused
Amused
9 years ago

MRAL: Or you are gonna do what? Boycott school work until I give in? Go ahead, hon, I think I can live with the consequences.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Broseidon: Nah, you’re right, I’m the one overreacting.

Yep, you are. Because the piece you were saying needed calming down, was a request for support to your claim. That you use a later comment, as if it was the reason you said something; when that comment was a reply to you pretending to have the right to tell someone to pipe down, is why you aren’t really suited to public debate.

You could use with leaving your pride and ego out of this, you know, giving your testosterone a rest.

Pecunium
9 years ago

MRAL, you need to loosen your sphincter some, because you are so tight that you could stuff coal up your ass and get diamonds.

Don’t you have some really intelligent things to say? Maybe you should work on some infinitely differentiable Rheimannian manifolds or something, and get the little grey cells working.

David K. Meller
David K. Meller
9 years ago

Just thought of something else regarding McDonalds mayhem. If those two dreadful women “customers” were each at home, preparing their meals inside their respective nests, possibly with their families, none of this would have happened!

Is this one more argument for ‘a woman’s place is in the home’? I don’t know, but, unless some other utterly unsocialized if not maniacal female(s) did that evening, it would have solved an awful lot of problems, wouldn’t it? On the other hand, 20/20 hindsight is rarely helpful.

One more way in which women, when properly feminine and socialized, help civilize a society, and if they are not…

PEACE AND FREEDOM!!
David K. Meller

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

If those two dreadful women “customers” were each at home, preparing their meals inside their respective nests, possibly with their families, none of this would have happened!

“Nests” huh… DKM, do you also want women to vomit partially-digested food into your mouth? Is that a “pettable” quality too? XD

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Wait, I thought he liked kitties and bunnies, not birds? You know, DKM, most birds aren’t actually very pettable.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Also, what do excited “tits” look like, exactly? Really nipply? If so, why is this supposed to be a bad thing?

Dracula
Dracula
9 years ago

They look like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_%28bird%29

There are several varieties.

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

Also, what do excited “tits” look like, exactly? Really nipply? If so, why is this supposed to be a bad thing?

that depends, how many nipples are we talking about?

Nova
Nova
9 years ago

Wow, MRA dudes. Calm your nutsacks and your balls may finally drop.

Maybe we need some Xanax to go along with the flouride in the water system.

NullPointer
NullPointer
9 years ago

Is this one more argument for ‘a woman’s place is in the home’? I don’t know, but, unless some other utterly unsocialized if not maniacal female(s) did that evening, it would have solved an awful lot of problems, wouldn’t it?

You know, it also wouldn’t have happened if the male cashier was at home, preparing meals in his nest. Is this one more argument for ‘a man’s place is in the home’? Scratch that, it also wouldn’t have happened if people learned to photosynthesize and got all their energy from sunlight. Photosynthesis: it’s the only way to prevent assault at McDonald’s!

Eneya
9 years ago

Keller, dude, repeating your own name repeatedly is redundant, why do you have the need to type it every time under every comment you make? Seriously, I want to know why you do that.

Also, the argument that it would have been better if people have stayed somehwere else/done some other stuff than whatever they actually did is complete and utter bullshit on the grounds that this could easily have been men… I wonder what you comment should have been in this case?

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

Photosynthesis: it’s the only way to prevent assault at McDonald’s!

Just as importantly, it’s a way to prevent McDonald’s too. 😀

Molly Ren
9 years ago

“’Nests’ huh… DKM, do you also want women to vomit partially-digested food into your mouth? Is that a ‘pettable’ quality too? XD”

I’ve never had the urge to laugh and shriek “EWWWW!” *at the same time* before…

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@DKM:

“Is this one more argument for ‘a woman’s place is in the home’?”

No.

“One more way in which women, when properly feminine and socialized, help civilize a society, and if they are not…”

They get the crap beaten out of them with a pipe.

Honestly DKM, stop waggling your eyebrows, winking, and nudging that maybe its possible that we might consider locking up women in the home. Men commit assault too. In fact, one did just now. Perhaps if he stayed home, he wouldn’t have gotten slapped and would have avoided beating the crap out of those women.

Is this one more argument for ‘a man’s place is in the home’?

David K. Meller
David K. Meller
9 years ago

“Nests” was, of course, writing metaphorically. I didn’t know that manboobz readers were either unable to see the humor, or lacked the wit to recognise tongue-in-cheek humor. Sorry for the confusion. I should have simply said “if these dreadful women “customers” had been in their homes…”and let it go at that.

As far as the male cashier, with his bad temper and prior prison record, having him interact with customers at the register was not–to say the least–the best job assignment for him, but being a man, he IS charged with doing work outside the home. The case for his working in and around the home, unlike the ladies, is therefore not as compelling; his emotional and social immaturity notwithstanding. I hope that this commonplace observation thus answers the objection to smartass that “a man’s place is in the home” scribbled above.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Meller: No, he s CHARGED with aggravated assault.

cynickal
cynickal
9 years ago

“Customers” needs to be in scare quotes now?

I hope that this commonplace observation thus answers the objection to smartass that “a man’s place is in the home” scribbled above.

Not in the least, but I’m sure that won’t keep your logorrhea from polluting the internests.

Amnesia
Amnesia
9 years ago

“Any woman who goes to McDonalds” is added to DKM’s list of improper women who should be killed off or reformed into submissive sex slaves. This list also includes women who work outside the home, women who don’t wear dresses, women who can’t cook, women who can’t get pregnant, and probably women who blink before DKM says they can.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Meller, our senses of humor are just fine; you aren’t funny.

David K. Meller
David K. Meller
9 years ago

No, simpletons, customers are in scare quotes because these women misbehaved in ways that are totally unacceptable in a civilized (or even a not-so-civilized) society. You DON’T threaten the cashier, you DON’T create a scene in a public place, you DON’T put your hands on another person, least of all, never a person charged with fulfulling your order under any circumstances, you DON’T trespass into work areas without permission of management, and you DON’T create hazardous conditions for other customers and employees of a place of business where you are–at most–a guest!!

This has nothing to do with women “who should be killed off or reformed into being submissive sex slaves”! Save that absurd nonsense for darksidecat and Pecunium! The scare quotes were applied to the women who behaved like maniacs, at least on the grounds cited above, and I probably left out a lot!

It does manboobz readers no credit that I, or anyone, should have to belabor the obvious above.

Next case!!

Amused
Amused
9 years ago

Meller: These women wouldn’t have done what they did if that cashier stayed at home and did chores as he was supposed to do. By being the cashier, he practically forced those women to misbehave. Obviously.

TEA AND CRUMPETS!!

KathleenB
KathleenB
9 years ago

Meller, calling us simpletons is like the goose complaining that the swan has a long neck.

David K. Meller
David K. Meller
9 years ago

Amused, I already explained that the cashier should NOT have stayed at home, he had his JOB there, and that he, even as a cashier, behaved himself there until those two she-maniacs attacked him.

KathleenB-Don’t you have some cupcakes to bake?

KathleenB
KathleenB
9 years ago

Meller: Don’t you have some reading comprehension to do? I mean, you’re an epic fuckwit, but I’m pretty sure even you can read what I posted last night. The words aren’t THAT big, and I’ll help with the long ones if you need it.

Pecunium
9 years ago

You DON’T tell other people how to live their lives.

You DON’T say women who aren’t sufficiently subservient ought to be killed.

You DON’T revel in the pain of others because they disagree with you.

Unless you are David K. Meller.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Meller, don’t you have a life to get, or barring that, some right-wing moonbatty woo-woo websites to spew your garbage at?

Amused
Amused
9 years ago

Meller: He should not have had a job. His place was at home, doing laundry, baking cookies and starching his wife’s dresses. If he was soft, fluffy, cuddly and obedient, those two women wouldn’t have been driven to lash out at him.

Dracula
Dracula
9 years ago

You also don’t beat people when they’re already down. Not that you give a fuck about that, Meller.

NullPointer
NullPointer
9 years ago

“being a man, he IS charged with doing work outside the home”

Charged by whom?

David K. Meller
David K. Meller
9 years ago

I’ve long been a critic of feminism, but the posts here are convincing me that the evil of feminism, and the gender-equality delusions which seem to underwrite it, has been understated, if not ignored!

I certainly shall inform fellow posters on other websites I observe and contribute to about the dangers that feminism poses, using this article, especially your responses to it, as a typical example here of feminuttery run amok!

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

You DON’T tell other people how to live their lives.

You DON’T say women who aren’t sufficiently subservient ought to be killed.

You DON’T revel in the pain of others because they disagree with you.

Unless you are David K. Meller.

Rejoicing when a pair of women are beaten half to death isn’t normal. But on Mens’ Rights Activism it is. MRA: NOT EVEN ONCE

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

I certainly shall inform fellow posters on other websites I observe and contribute to about the dangers that feminism poses, using this article, especially your responses to it, as a typical example here of feminuttery run amok!

If beating someone’s head in with a pipe is wrong, I don’t want to be right.

Simon
Simon
9 years ago

@Pecunium:
“Don’t you have some really intelligent things to say? Maybe you should work on some infinitely differentiable Rheimannian manifolds or something, and get the little grey cells working.”

At least spell it the right way: Riemannian manifolds.

Simon
Simon
9 years ago

Though I feel bad about what happened to these women it has still one positive effect, it’s one more stain in McDonald’s perfect world.

btw, what have I done to be on moderation (all the time)?

Moewicus
Moewicus
9 years ago

Apparently in Meller’s world, “feminuttery” = understanding the difference proportionate and disproportionate (illegal) use of force.

But then again he already thinks the legal system is ruled by Feminazi Reptilians or Nords or something, so no surprise I guess.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
9 years ago

@DKM:

As far as the male cashier, with his bad temper and prior prison record, having him interact with customers at the register was not–to say the least–the best job assignment for him, but being a man, he IS charged with doing work outside the home. The case for his working in and around the home, unlike the ladies, is therefore not as compelling; his emotional and social immaturity notwithstanding. I hope that this commonplace observation thus answers the objection to smartass that “a man’s place is in the home” scribbled above.

So… Women should be in the home because that’s their place, and men should be out at a job because that’s their place. The violence has nothing to do with it, you’re just further asserting what you already believe. Gotcha.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

I certainly shall inform fellow posters on other websites I observe and contribute to about the dangers that feminism poses, using this article, especially your responses to it, as a typical example here of feminuttery run amok!

I for one don’t give a tiny rat’s ass about what Nazi wifebeaters who see auras around the Illuminati think about me.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Yep, when people mock Meller that’s definitely a sign that feminism is running amock.

I’m just not sure why this is supposed to be a bad thing.

Amused
Amused
9 years ago

I certainly shall inform fellow posters on other websites I observe and contribute to about the dangers that feminism poses, using this article, especially your responses to it, as a typical example here of feminuttery run amok!

Do whatever you want, hon, as long as you don’t burn the roast. Remember your priorities!

Pecunium
9 years ago

Amused: If he burns the roast it’s intentionally pushing buttons, so he can get the love-filled beating that would justify.

It would be unmanly to ask for it directly; he has to intimate.

ithiliana
9 years ago

400!