Every day, it seems, I learn a little bit more about the oppression of men. Recently, for example, I learned that men who are working customer service jobs are oppressed because they are prohibited from punching their customers, even when these customers are really, really annoying, and possibly even ladies. At least that’s the lesson I took from a recent Facebook posting by MRA and frequent Spearhead contributor Jack Donovan. Here’s Jack:
Men want to carry their own weight, but to do so, they may have to take a job which requires them to choose “flight” over “fight” as part of their regular duties. All customer service oriented jobs, for instance, require men to take abuse from … someone who is angrily issuing insults and challenge cues … and reply submissively.
Even worse is when some of these poor men, like Jack, are natural “alphas” forced to take these beta-ass jobs because for some reason the people in charge of hiring haven’t recognized their awesome alphaness:
It would be interesting to see someone do a study tracking the testosterone levels of “alpha” type men who would not choose a customer service job, but who were forced to take a position where they had to apologize and beg forgiveness from abusive women and “betas” all day.
It’s almost like you have to act as if the customer is always right!
As a man who had blood in his face for *several hours* after having to hold my tongue while I was screamed at by a neurotic old female customer this week, the physical effects were pretty noticeable in the short term. I was murderously furious for hours and then emotionally exhausted and kind of depressed through the next day.
Wouldn’t it have been better for everyone – with the possible exception of the old lady, of course, and the rest of the customers, and maybe the firm employing Mr. Donovan – if he could have chosen “fight” instead of “flight,” and just popped that old bat in the nose? Problem fucking solved!
Let’s just shut down the economy and the judicial system for a day or two while we work out a way that Mr. Donovan can just punch people without any consequences. Because he’s an alpha, damn it, and he really shouldn’t be hemmed in by petty “laws” and “social conventions” and “moral codes” clearly meant for betas and ladies and other losers.
EDITED TO ADD: Donovan has responded to this post in the comments here. He says he’s not an MRA, so I’ve edited out that part. (I did find his Facebook post through a link on the MR subreddit, FWIW.)
I should clarify that Donovan did not talk directly about punching people; he talked about the “fight or flight” instinct.
Wow, MRAL, I are impressed. *gholfclap*
Late to the party, but as a long time retail and public service employee, if you can’t handle angry people yelling at you for something you didn’t do and had no say in, then you need to toughen up, kiddo.
It sucks, but them’s the breaks. That’s the job.
This entire takedown was so sexy. Too bad he won’t learn a damned thing from it.
Historical accuracy is for pussies!
This is kind of funny. Yeah, you extrapolated a lot to make it sound like my whole post was about me whining about not being able to punch customers.
The original post–something I edited OUT of my upcoming book but liked enough to share with my readers–really had to do with the whole “End of Men” discussion that has been in the media, and the refrain that men are going to have to “man up” and learn to like kinds of work that (admittedly) suck for anyone, but which really run contrary to everything that men have evolved to be, and what men want to be. I said that women are better at customer service jobs, and the likes of Hanna Rosin et al. seem pretty proud of that. I said that it seems likely that, as has been proven in the context of sporting events, etc., that men get a testosterone drop after they are provoked and back down. I suggested that would make an interesting study.
None of that fit your running narrative, of course.
I used a personal anecdote, because it was a recent experience that was fresh in my mind. I never bragged about being an “alpha.” You inferred that I was saying I was an “alpha.” I generally like my job and do what I do by choice. I was talking about the bigger issue about how men fit into managerial and service economies–an obvious problem that many feminists have addressed.
I am not an MRA. A lot of MRAs hate my guts, actually. I think the concept of “men’s rights” is a non-starter, and at best can only gain men another place at the identity group grievance table. But I’m sure no matter what my actual viewpoint is, though, you’ll be able to turn it into a cartoon that folks here can titter about. And that’s OK.
It’s nice that you piss off MRAs, that’s always fun.
Is David right about you contributing to The Spearhead? When you associate yourself with that site, of course you’re going to get labelled a woman-hater.
So, men haven’t evolved to deal with people in general, and women are just naturally better at the most stressful and least rewarding jobs. Excuses, excuses.
You’re an idiot with a poor knowledge of prehistorical society and living conditions. We didn’t have the time for the idiotic dimorphism you think happened. *EVERYONE* gathered, and hunting, as rarely as it was done, was a gender neutral task handled by everyone best suited to it, male or female.
Because women want to, as you put it, grovel and beg to people who ‘fake game’ (BTW, Game is voodoo).
It is something that women’s socialization better prepares us for; that doesn’t mean it suddenly magically stops sucking, it means we’re on average more likely to be used to that kind of shitty social situation.
Oh bother. That should say.
“Good start” after the first blockquote.
And really, this is how you want to not be recognized as a misogynist? Play up Game, pretend men are better, pretend that grovelling is women’s place…? Do you know what misogyny means?
To be fair, you’re also an asshole to ‘Beta Men’, because that’s *totally* a thing. Seriously, get a better lens of looking at the world.
And you said you editted it out of your book because it was off topic, not because it wasn’t true, so I don’t know why you’re using that to your advantage.
>>hunting, as rarely as it was done, was a gender neutral task handled by everyone best suited to it, male or female.
Earth’s Children was feminist fantasy, not a history book.
There are still hunter-gatherer tribes on the planet, and the women do not EVER hunt with the men.
Shut the fuck up, Rutee. It’s entirely reasonable to conjecture that men may, on the whole, find customer service jobs more difficult to bear than women. Is it accurate? I don’t know, maybe, maybe not, but given, well, all of history, such speculation doesn’t make Donovan “an idiot”.
You’ve got a point, MRAL. If men have been taught that their proper place is In Charge, it may in fact be harder for them to deal with being taken down a peg.
Like I said much earlier, I think some customers are too abusive for anyone to deal with. But the attitude “I don’t deserve this because I’m a human being with feelings” is a different thing from “I don’t deserve this because I’m an important person and this is a job for little people.”
@Holly: Why are you arguing with MRAL? Don’t you know he has a high IQ? We women should clearly be doing all the customer service jobs — those little ladies sure can take a (metaphorical) punch! — and leaving the philosophy and science and history for the menfolk. Because testosterone.
It’s not that I think men feel the need to be In Charge, that’s a strawman. It’s that they probably have a greater instinct for confrontation (what Donovan calls “fight”), while women have a greater instinct for “flight”. Obviously in a job that basically demands deference and aheres to the philosophy “the customer is always right”, “flight” is better suited for an employee.
Yeah, I could see how socialization could better prepare women for dealing with the public. Girls are taught that being nice means being meek and compliant, and that being assertive is okay in small doses but you can’t be too assertive or people will call you the b word. These are actually good skills to have if you’re supposed to meet customer demands and keep them happy. However, it can be harmful when dealing with abusive customers.
The girl at Wal-Mart described how the customer screamed slurs at her and threatened violence towards her, all because he didn’t have a receipt to return an item. That was his fault, not hers. Honestly, he probably broke the law with his behavior, but she meekly endured it and then ran to the bathroom to cry. When I waited tables in high school, I remember customers asking such questions like “Are you legal? Tee hee” or tell me some obscene way to earn a bigger tip. I didn’t put up with it and would report such nonsense to my manager. I’m not sure if those same asshole customers would have behaved so badly towards men or not.
Yeah, I guess I buy this. Mr. Al is right: Men are such instinctual beings that they cannot at all control themselves and act appropriately to the situation if their hormones or their tempers flare (as they often do). It’s amazing that they’re allowed out into society at all!
I wonder why expensive restaurants tend to employ male waiters, then? Must be lotsa fist fights and tusslin at your upper-end steak joints.
Of course, as a restaurant owner, I might prefer a server who runs away, leaving the table waiting indefinitely for their check, to one who bloodies their noses, but only barely.
Although, now that I’m thinking about it, most of the rude employees I’ve encountered are women, and the men are generally more friendly, so you know what, I don’t know. I think perhaps evolutionary history taken on its own would indicate women are superior at customer service jobs, BUT, in recent years, women have been taught arrogance and extreme entitlement to the extent that the biological aspect of it has been cancelled out.
Aha, it’s another MRM contradiction. Usually, MRA’s keep talking about how all women are actually very violent, and all men are innocent victims who never resort to violence except as a last resort. Now MRA’s are here to tell us women are by nature more passive and men more aggressive. Which is it?
Ah yes. Apply women = suck to any situation and it all becomes clear …
I laughed pretty hard at this, and I have a high IQ.
WE POLITELY ANSWERED THE MAMMOTH’S CONCERNS ABOUT ITS ACCOUNT BALANCE FOR YOU
I just answered that question, BM.
Holly, I don’t see what’s so funny about that. It’s a logical extrapolation.In a lawless world similar to that of the early humans (or the apocalyptic scenario that MRAs often fantasize about) it’s true that women’s arrogance would disappear REAL FAST. I don’t want that to happen though, because I would miss the computer.
Early humans were lawless, but they weren’t monstrous. They lived in tribes (apes live in tribes), and if you fucked with the tribe, you were on your own–which is to say you’re pretty much lion food. Rape or beat women who have allies in your tribe? Lion food. Start lots of fights with other men? Lion food.
In a scenario where only group cooperation is keeping you fed and un-lion-eaten, men can’t afford arrogance either.
Rudeness is subjective, MRAL. My mom thinks it’s rude if hairdressers don’t chat with her while she gets her hair done. I don’t care about whether or not they make small talk with me. My dad thinks it’s rude when customer service people put him on hold during phone calls, but I don’t mind it. What kind of rudeness do you notice from female employees that you don’t from male employees? Do you perhaps have different expectations from men and women?
Regarding rudeness, it’s helpful to remember that Mr. Al wanted to do harm to a woman of his acquaintance for being so rude as to say hi to him in a way that he deemed not friendly enough.
So yeah. There’s that.