Ugh. No jokes this time, just an appalling little exchange on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit. First, a Redditor called xbyiu offers some unsolicited, and pretty pig-ignorant, thoughts about SlutWalks. The basic thesis:
Personally, I think a lot of feminists just don’t care about rape victims. They’d much rather see women as a whole being a victim of the patriarchy and fight against that sort of abstract idea then deal with the reality of rape, which can be fought against with simple tips on how to protect yourself.
Hold on; it gets worse.
To this the r/mr regular EvilPundit replied (in a comment that, last I checked, had gotten three times more upvotes than downvotes):
I’d go even further, and say that many feminists love rape. For them, it’s a perfect way to demonise men in general.
If rape didn’t exist, feminism would invent it. In fact, feminism does invent a lot of rape, with its imaginary statistics such as “1 in 4”, and so on.
In other words, feminists don’t really want to prevent rape. But most rape is imaginary. So feminists are trying to not prevent something that doesn’t much happen anyway. Brilliant.
A note on the “1 in 4” thing: EvilPundit’s insinuation that it’s an “imaginary statistic” is a common MRA talking point. It’s not imaginary, but it’s not quite accurate either. The one-in-four number comes from a study conducted in the 80s by researcher Mary Koss: based on a detailed survey of college women, she found that roughly one in four of her respondent had been a victim of rape or attempted rape since the age of 14. This is often simplified – and distorted – into “one in four female college students are raped while in college.”
In fact, Koss’ survey found that one in eight college women answering her survey, not one in four, had been the victim of completed rape. Other studies have reported numbers not far off from this. The National Violence Against Women Survey, for example, found that roughly one in six of female respondents reported being the victim of rape in their lifetime.
The fact that some people have misrepresented Koss’ study doesn’t mean that her findings are “imaginary.”
I’m not even sure why I’m writing all this, given that as a feminist I presumably don’t care at all about rape.
Pic above taken from here.
EDITED TO ADD: EvilPundit’s comment has gotten some downvotes since I posted this, but it still has more upvotes than downvotes.
For the record, I experienced two attempted rapes when I was 15 years old. On both occaisions I was wearing what was then my walking-around uniform: ratty jeans that made my look blodgy and a ratty sweatshirt that made me look even blodgier. At that time in my life I didn’t do much more than shower and comb my hair. I don’t think I looked uncouth; all the same, the composite picture was not one calculated to incite yearning in the male breast. And my guess is that it didn’t incite any yearning in the male breast and that the two schoolboys who assaulted me were acting under a conviction that I was a safe bet to attack. They thought I’d never tell (I never have told about the first one until now) and they didn’t expect me to fight back. What could I have done to prevent these two incidents? Well, let’s see. I could have not gone to school. I could have not walked home from school. I could have been (maybe) even more unappetizing than I was. I could have been completely sexless, and I could have rigorously shunned the company of boys. (Although, when girls shun boys or when women shun men the boys’ and mens’ feelings are hurt and then they complain.)
I’m not trying to be mean, but it seems to me that there are some things about life which lots of guys just don’t understand.
…wait, what? You are xbyiu?
Duhn Duhn DUHN!
One of the problems with “Things You Can Do to Avoid Rape” lists is that women are given a shit-ton of mutually exclusive advice.
For example, a woman shouldn’t have long hair, because it is very feminine and arouses lust. She shouldn’t wear her long hair in a bun, because that accentuates her neck and shoulders and therefore arouses lust. She shouldn’t have short hair, either, because that makes her look like a lesbian and may provoke “corrective” rape. She shouldn’t have shoulder-length hair, because that makes her look like a corporate whore who likes being raped.
A woman shouldn’t wear short or medium-length skirts because that’s too sexy. She shouldn’t wear long skirts because that’s too sexy. She shouldn’t wear pants because that’s too sexy.
A woman shouldn’t fight back because the rapist may seriously injure or even kill her. At the same time, she should fight back, because if she doesn’t, then it’s consent and no longer rape.
Etc., etc. etc.
Nothing at all like the False Rape that MRM is so fond of whipping out at the slightest provocation. Because, well men might feel shame then.
Citation needed.
I think the best advice ever given about keeping safe from strangers comes from Gavin de Becker, author of The Gift of Fear. He says, in essence, “trust your judgement and your intuition.” If someone scares you, trust that instinct; don’t override your fear just to be “nice” or avoid hurting a person’s feelings. Predators take advantage of the uncertainty that comes when one is torn between minding their manners and listening to their fear.
Of course, MRAs hate this idea, because their feelings are paramount in any situation (witness the response to the Elevator Incident).
““Would we be having this discussion if I said “don’t take a walk through your neighborhood late at night with a gold chain around your neck and cash hanging out of your pants”?””
As the great Wanda Sykes said, I can’t leave my vagina at home in a jar where it will be safe. I can’t leave my status as a woman behind when I go out.
I am not someone WEARING a female body. I am the person who lives in that female body. That is ME. Equating me with belongings you can leave at home or replace if stolen is pretty offensive.
It didn’t help any of the women during the Son of Sam killings.
So I guess all those women were asking to be murdered.
First quote can be responded to best with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc Second transcends even that
@bekabot
I’m sorry that happened to you, and I think it’s very brave to you that you shared your story, to show once again that clothes don’t mater – if a rapist (or rapists) decides to rape, they will rape.
When it happened, I was wearing baggy pants that were several sizes too big, as well as an oversized t-shirt with the text “blood frenzy” on it. I was a shy and socially awkward tea-totaler, who tried to comfort (in a non-sexual way) a friend who was feeling down.
BTW, did anyone else notice that a lot of rape survivors still remember what they were wearing, even years after it happened?
If I remember correctly, most rapists don’t remember what their victims were wearing when they were asked during interrogation.
It’s…telling.
You still have to worry about bears…
Self-defense tips are kind of helpful, if only because planning how to react to an attack puts you in the frame of mind to respond aggressively. But real-world attacks are a world apart from self-defense training. Anyone who’s been mugged knows that.
Tips on “preventing” rape by taking various precautions tend to fall into two categories:
a) Useless. This includes all advice on how to dress. Contrary to popular belief, dressing modestly puts you at a somewhat greater risk of rape, because serial rapists know that shy, modest people are often easy targets. Of course, if you dress immodestly and get attacked, people will say it’s your fault for looking all sexy. There’s no way to win with this crap. In the future, whenever I’m tempted to give any credence to it, I’m just going to remember Hengist arguing seriously that women have a responsibility to dye their hair a color a rapist doesn’t like.
b) Absurdly restrictive. Don’t go to parties. Don’t go to bars. Don’t work late at the office. Don’t be out after dusk. (Before Slutwalks, we had Take Back the Night rallies, and critics mocked the idea of women thinking they had the right to be outdoors at night.) Don’t eat or drink anything in public; it might be spiked. Don’t invite people over to your home. Take a chaperone everywhere. Never be alone with a man for any reason. Act like you could be brutally attacked at any moment and all men you meet are potential rapists, but don’t be a paranoid man-hater.
After a certain point, it really would be simpler to just stop rapists from raping.
Exactly. Also, not long ago I saw another really good point that makes the whole analogy even more stupid.
A robber or mugger usually wants to steal something valuable from a person, so for them it would make sense to target someone who seems like they would be worth robbing or stealing from – for example, someone wearing a gold chain, having money dangling from their pocket, or wearing expensive clothes would look more profitable.
A woman showing more of her body does only demonstrate that she is, in fact, a woman with a body wearing clothes, instead of an empty clothes hanger walking around. Wearing more clothes doesn’t make her look like she has less of a body.
Here is the “Argument”.
1: Rape is really rare.
2: Rape is also easy to prevent.
3: If rape is so rare, and so easy to prevent, the Feminist Obessession has nothing to do with rape.
From there the argument, such as it is, is that all this hue and cry about rape is a way for Feminists to justify feminism (which is really about oppressing men; since women actually have it easy nowadays; they have the vote, they get to work, they are allowed to join the Army, hell some of them even get elected to office; or promoted to CEO; it’s a gravy train for women. Men have to fix milk machines and do the dangerous jobs in the army, and invent things and shit).
Hence, since rape isn’t a real problem, and the solution for the few “real”‘ rapes that do exist is just, “common sense” it’s not something Feminists care about, or they’d be telling women to avoid dark alleys and stop slutting it up by wearing make-up and sexy clothes.
What it’s really saying is, shocker, men are the oppressed group because, FEMINISM.
Hengist: In another thread you said As for Schrodinger’s rapist, I repeat… statistics show that in 85% of rape cases the victim knew the attacker, and was often in a relationhip with him”.
So… how does that square up to your seatblets/gold chains and lots of cash hanging out of my pockets analogy?
I suppose a woman could assume that any man might a potential rapist.
I don’t think anyone was arguing rape was not, in fact, the rapist’s fault.
No, you were just comparing to things which happen accidentally, like car crashes.
Doesn’t that mean that you were, at least indirectly, responsible if you get murdered, without absolving the murderer of his part?
Ah… so you do blame women, at least a little bit, for being raped.
How about “walk through a Crips neighborhood wearing Bloods colors, get the crap beaten out of you” – would that be a better analogy?
No. Because that’s in the realm of being provocative. That analogy is based on one groups being known to be lethally hostile to the other. It’s the, “she was asking for it model”, dressed up as, “avoid risky behavior.”
If you try to say, “well, what if you didn’t know it was a Crips neighborhood”, then what you are saying is “be a mind reader”, because you can’t know when you are going to encounter someone who has a fetish for someone in a parka, or wants to “get back” at Muslims by attacking a woman in hijab.
So you’re claiming that style of dress and behavior have absolutely no bearing on a woman’s risk to be assaulted, is this correct?
Yes.
Shora: All right, so if I said “If you dress like a slut, you’ll be more likely to be blamed and your character questioned in case you get assaulted” would it be valid advice then?
No. Because that’s blaming the victim. The thing to do is, shock of shocks, make it unacceptable to use, “slut-shaming” as a defense of rape. We could, I don’t know, start some sort of movement to do that.
Hengist:
If any of those recommendations/tips actually helped reduce rape risk, then maybe some of us would recommend them, despite the fact that they are even more frequently used for victim blaming. But when they aren’t even helpful — and how can they be, since the tips that aren’t condescending are at best ill-defined*, and often downright contradictory? — and serve only to limit women’s** freedom, it’s pretty hard to take them with a smile and gratitude. You’re right that the tips can be more charitably read as “here’s how you can be more likely to be believed when you get raped” than “here’s how to not get raped,” but 1) that is not how the list-perpetuators are framing it, and 2) the fact that victims often do not get believed is, in part, due to lists like this.
*how, exactly, should I be dressing? I’d like to see links to actual garments, appropriate to a mid-twenties professional woman, that’ll fit my 34DD chest and matching hips (but no bagginess around the 30″ waist, because that’s not professional, remember) and do not cost a fortune. Bonus points if you take into account 100°+humidity weather in the summer. Please also tell me exactly how long my hair and nails should be. For the next question, I’d like you to tell me how I can live my life without ever going outside when it’s dark out (which happens around 5:30 in the winter).
**and they are always about limiting women’s freedom, despite the obvious fact that men get raped too
Hengist: (by the way, shouting “Mansplaining” whenever a man says something is one of the reasons many people aren’t taking feminists seriously. Just saying)
And using, “shaming language” to discourage a legitimate use of it (because really, it’s not that common; confirmation bias, and all that), isn’t going to win anyone over. Tone arguments are, pretty much, a non-starter in terms of actual argument. Lots of folks who aren’t actually trying to discuss, but merely, “win”, however, are fond of starting them.
Also, ignoring a mansplainer, so as not to hurt his feelings… is counterproductive. If it pisses him off, and he leaves, that’s probably a win. If he takes the hint, and reduces/stops it, that’s a definite win.
If he never gets told, then he keeps on wasting everyone’s time, and what merit he might have elsewhen, tends to get lost in the weeds.
Hengist: Sure, if by “logical extension” you mean “slippery slope fallacy”.
No, it’s the rhetorical device of, reductio ad absurdem.
I know exactly zero women who behave in a rational way given that every man is a rapist. It’s almost as though they don’t believe it’s the case (though if there is someone out there who avoids all interaction with men, I obviously wouldn’t know her).
I do know women who behave as though any man could be a rapist, but that’s not really the same thing.
Hengist:
I always love this method of argumentation. “I don’t have to back up what I’m saying, you wouldn’t believe it anyway.”
Also, isn’t that kind of like ostensibly arguing with someone, while supplying what you claim to be their side of the argument?
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Hengist:
This is why it fails as an analogy, however. Rape is sometrhing people decide to do, and that deciding is the problem. If everyone wore seat belts, people would still be hurt in accidents. If everyone decided not to rape, no one would be raped. Which is more effective?
As a straight man, I’d prefer a world in which rapists stopped raping to one in which women stopped wearing skirts, even if women not wearing skirts were 100% effective at stopping rape.
Hengist:
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Hengist, the hits just keep on coming:
Only because there’s no such thing as generosity-shaming of people who are perceived as giving money away too readily, even if they actually had it taken by force. I’m sure Randroids who get robbed tell themselves “it was entirely the robber’s fault” all the time.
vacuumslayer:
Sometimes both at the same time, depending on whom you ask.
Hengist (!):
No. We live in a world in which people still rape. Big difference.
The rape prevention tip lists remind me of a self defense class I had during high school PE. The teacher did mean well, but the techniques she taught didn’t seem that effective. She taught us a way to break free if someone grabs you from behind and a way to get away when someone grabs your arm. After school, I asked my boyfriend to grab me like that to see how they would work. When he grabbed me from behind, I did the break away move with all my strength but it didn’t work at all. My boyfriend said, “It’s not a flawed technique. It just didn’t work because I’m much bigger and stronger than you”. I laughed because the whole idea of it is it’s supposed to make it easy to get away from someone bigger and stronger than you.
I think that such classes, while being well intentioned, have major drawbacks. For one thing, in a class you aren’t actually afraid so it’s easy to remember what to do. If you’re really in danger, panic can prevent you from doing anything at all. Secondly, fighting back can make some rapists more violent. Finally, it could make a victim feel like she “lost” if her self defense moves don’t work, so she blames herself for the rape. I don’t think there is a correct way to react to a rape, because for a victim it really is a no win situation.
Outside of the debate, I would like to point out that the person holding the sign is actually male, not female. Just thought you would like to be informed.
No. We live in a world in which people still rape. Big difference.
Exactly. Why do people persist in talking about rape as though it just spontaneously happens? Rapists aren’t boogeymen that manifest out the shadows. They are living, breathing human beings, and they pay attention. They use the internet. The watch the news and read the papers (as much as anyone still reads the papers).
My point is, when we as a society are frequently bombarded with the “Don’t dress like a slut or have a social life.” message, they listen. They internalize it, and it informs their choice of victims. Rapists that target women who are “slutty” or “irresponsible” do so because they’re hearing, loudly and often, that those women won’t be believed.
Telling women “Don’t be a slut and you won’t get raped.” doesn’t do a thing to prevent rape, but it does a hell of a lot to prevent justice being done.
Telling women “Don’t be a slut and you won’t get raped.” doesn’t do a thing to prevent rape, but it does a hell of a lot to prevent justice being done.
Not to mention that it causes even women who have never been raped to restrict their activities and live in fear. Rape culture just sucks all around.
You gotta love how on the other thread Hengist is saying we’re too paranoid about rape, and then on this one we’re apparently not paranoid enough.
Amazing. Slutwalk. Talk about histrionic. It’s always the women least likely to get raped who make the most noise about it. You have your fatties, messed up goths, bulldykes, gross tattooed pierced manly women, who likely never get a second glance from a man, crying rape.
For real. What the hell are we supposed to do? “Sorry, I can’t go to that party/go on a date with you/go out at night/walk to my mailbox because I might get raped.” “OMG YOU HATE ALL MEN AND THINK THEY’RE RAPISTS!!!!!”