Ugh. No jokes this time, just an appalling little exchange on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit. First, a Redditor called xbyiu offers some unsolicited, and pretty pig-ignorant, thoughts about SlutWalks. The basic thesis:
Personally, I think a lot of feminists just don’t care about rape victims. They’d much rather see women as a whole being a victim of the patriarchy and fight against that sort of abstract idea then deal with the reality of rape, which can be fought against with simple tips on how to protect yourself.
Hold on; it gets worse.
To this the r/mr regular EvilPundit replied (in a comment that, last I checked, had gotten three times more upvotes than downvotes):
I’d go even further, and say that many feminists love rape. For them, it’s a perfect way to demonise men in general.
If rape didn’t exist, feminism would invent it. In fact, feminism does invent a lot of rape, with its imaginary statistics such as “1 in 4”, and so on.
In other words, feminists don’t really want to prevent rape. But most rape is imaginary. So feminists are trying to not prevent something that doesn’t much happen anyway. Brilliant.
A note on the “1 in 4” thing: EvilPundit’s insinuation that it’s an “imaginary statistic” is a common MRA talking point. It’s not imaginary, but it’s not quite accurate either. The one-in-four number comes from a study conducted in the 80s by researcher Mary Koss: based on a detailed survey of college women, she found that roughly one in four of her respondent had been a victim of rape or attempted rape since the age of 14. This is often simplified – and distorted – into “one in four female college students are raped while in college.”
In fact, Koss’ survey found that one in eight college women answering her survey, not one in four, had been the victim of completed rape. Other studies have reported numbers not far off from this. The National Violence Against Women Survey, for example, found that roughly one in six of female respondents reported being the victim of rape in their lifetime.
The fact that some people have misrepresented Koss’ study doesn’t mean that her findings are “imaginary.”
I’m not even sure why I’m writing all this, given that as a feminist I presumably don’t care at all about rape.
Pic above taken from here.
EDITED TO ADD: EvilPundit’s comment has gotten some downvotes since I posted this, but it still has more upvotes than downvotes.
You guys love to rail against a system in which access to the female body is monetized and yet you refuse to admit that women are not the ones who’ve placed a monetary value on sex. That system is as old as dirt, and comes courtesy of the patriarchy. You’re just pissed that women are now able to participate in it rather than act merely as the chattel that is passed around.
Actually, I’m going to take the unpopular opinion and say that yes, it does. But not for the reason you think.
See, a lot of people think this is true because they believe that men are uncontrolable beasts that will froth at the mouth if they even see a woman in a short skirt, and that refraining from raping her will actually cause this man physical pain (i’m looking at you NWO)
In actuality, rapists often seek out victims who they know will be easy targets for victim blaming. This includes but is not limited to drunk women, women in short skirts, promiscuous women, kinky women, mentally ill women, ect.
So because society blames these types of victims, rapists target them, because they know they’ll get off scott free.
How do we stop this? STOP VICTIM BLAMING
Listen, this is all moot anyway, since apparently rape is incredibly, incredibly rare.
So you’re claiming that style of dress and behavior have absolutely no bearing on a woman’s risk to be assaulted, is this correct?
Do you have evidence that it does? If so, how significant a role does it play?
Frankly, I’m not convinced that dress makes that much of a difference, especially since most rapes are committed by someone known to the victim. As for behavior, well, what behavior would, in your mind, increase the liklihood of being raped? Only use of alcohol and drugs would seem to fit the bill here, as they can make a person an easier target for crimes of all sorts. But “don’t get falling down drunk or bad things may happen” is fairly common-sense advice for both men and women. Why single out women for this sort of advice?
Nor did I ever claim otherwise. But if they might help, why is it wrong to use them?
(by the way, shouting “Mansplaining” whenever a man says something is one of the reasons many people aren’t taking feminists seriously. Just saying)
No, but they might help aka lower the risk in other cases.
Why do people use gold-diggers/false rape accusers in their female versions of feminist arguments against rape? The female equivalent of a rapist is still a rapist.
So you’re claiming that style of dress and behavior have absolutely no bearing on a woman’s risk to be assaulted, is this correct?
All studies done on the subject have suggested that style of dress is not a statistically significant factor. Interviews with serial stranger-rapists have suggested that a large proportion of them look for a specific “type” which varies rapist to rapist (frequently “women who look like my mom” or “women who look like my ex-wife,” etc.), and another significant portion just look for “women I can most likely get away with raping without being caught or punished” (prostitutes, disabled women, the very young or very old, etc.). One rapist somewhat famously (and chillingly) told the sociologist interviewing him that if he saw two identical twins, one dressed up “sexily” and one wearing a potato sack, he’d go for the one in the potato sack, because he figured she’d be less confident and less likely to feel able to tell people she was raped.
Now as for “behavior,” of course it has an impact. Someone whose “behavior” is “lock herself in a small cell and never have human contact again” is definitely less likely to be raped than most people. Heck, someone who kills every person she ever encounters is virtually certain not to be raped. Somehow I don’t think those sorts of “behavior” are what you had in mind, though.
But it’s the right kind of people who don’t take us seriously, you know?
Hengist, what would you say to a woman who told you she had been raped, and didn’t take these precautions?
Shora: All right, so if I said “If you dress like a slut, you’ll be more likely to be blamed and your character questioned in case you get assaulted” would it be valid advice then?
Hengist, no one ever said that taking precautions may not help you avoid assault or rape. They’ve simply said that these precautions don’t always work and that blaming a victim who didn’t take precautions is stupid.
Hengist, would you like a list of tips to prevent associating with false and calculating gold diggers? If given such a list do you think it would be useful? How many of the tips would you incorporate into your daily routine?
On what grounds do you even make this claim? Common Sense is the field of untested, generally untrue knowledge, so try to produce some facts and evidence to support it. Most rape is by people known to the victim, also.
So much this. Especially since men are at a higher risk of getting raped than of getting falsely accused of rape.
Hengist; Not really because a) I and most other women already know that and b) I can still here the and rightfully so tacked on to the end of that sentence.
The biggest reason I get pissed off at the “restrict your behavior to not get raped!” besides the “Or else it’s your fault!” implied is the fact that, you know what? Men can dress how they want and drink what they want and party as hard as they want, so why can’t I?
Does he really think that would make women who were raped responsible???
Holy shit, I’m sorry you had to deal with such an assclarinet.
I know you’re a valiant women’s-rights-crusader and all, but that’s an interesting point. Say there was a murderer who only targeted redheads. You could dye your hair and stop being a target, yet you refuse to do so. Doesn’t that mean that you were, at least indirectly, responsible if you get murdered, without absolving the murderer of his part?
No. Because it’s still the murderer’s choice to kill me.
Gender is not even ALL IT TAKES TO GET RAPED. Men are raped too, you know? The crux of the problem is the whole “having genitalia” thing, which seems a bit impossible to solve.
Hengist: I’ve never been assaulted, and the number of people who’ve seen me fully naked in person number in the hundreds (not to mention in a short skirt, in a midriff-bearing shirt, with my top off, etc.).
But that isn’t EVEN the point. The point is the following:
1) When you say “aren’t there measures for avoiding rape?” you are tacitly supporting rapists. Rapists deliberately target people whom they know are going to be doubted, which includes promiscuous women, drunk women and women in short skirts.
2) One of the methods that might actually work for preventing rape–complete paranoia around every person who might possibly rape you, cutting off anyone at any sign of a “red flag”, being ready at any moment to enforce your boundaries with violence– is not even remotely a fun way to live and is rather unfair to all the non-rapists around you. It’s also the super-intense form of Schrodinger’s Rapist. Seems to me if you want people to behave in such a way that they won’t be raped, you HAVE to support SR.
3) “Common sense rape guidelines” have a way of destroying a lot of women’s freedom. Can’t leave the house when it gets dark out, can’t get drunk, can’t dress in “sexy” ways, can’t go on vacation alone, can’t go to concerts alone, can’t go to much of anywhere alone, can’t have casual sex. Not wearing Bloods colors in Crips territory is a pretty minor limit on most people’s lives (and, you know, even then, “ending gangs” is a lot better goal than anti-Bloods-colors-wearing campaigns); not doing anything that someone might think was asking for it is not.
4) ‘Sexy’ is a moving target. Once everyone stops wearing miniskirts, will knee-length skirts be asking for it? Once everyone stops wearing skirts, will tight blue jeans be asking for it? Once everyone’s wearing shapeless garments that don’t show off their bodies, will not wearing a burqa be asking for it?
Actually, if I went to a gay bar in a fishnet tank top and assless leather pants, and got passed-out drunk, I would feel a little responsible if “something” happened…
<blockquote?I know you’re a valiant women’s-rights-crusader and all, but that’s an interesting point. Say there was a murderer who only targeted redheads. You could dye your hair and stop being a target, yet you refuse to do so. Doesn’t that mean that you were, at least indirectly, responsible if you get murdered, without absolving the murderer of his part?
…Wow…
No. Because it’s still the murderer’s choice to kill me.
And what good is knowing that when you’re dead? Wouldn’t it be better to not get killed in the first place?
No. You carry no responsibility for that asshole. If not you, it would be someone else. Only the murderer carries responsibility for his actions.
On a related note, I would like know some of xbyiu’s tips for preventing rape. I have never heard tips that actually work, but perhaps xbyiu stumbled upon something no one else has.
Here’s the complete list of his tips, from the Reddit post: “Encouraging people to have some mace handy, avoid sketchy situations, even just saying ‘no’ and yelling, etc. will help bring down the number of rapes.”
Wow, yelling! I bet all the victims of rape out there are slapping themselves on the forehead, wishing they’d thought of that!
I do kind of like “just saying ‘no'” as a tip, because he seems to have confused rape prevention with the War on Drugs.
In all seriousness… Way back when I was in college in the ’90s, feminist action against rape did tend to focus on self-defense. Nowadays it’s kind of assumed that people know about the existence of Mace, and the self-defense stuff started to edge into blaming the victims (there was this whole thing called “power feminism” where if you got raped or beaten it was your fault for being weak, thanks a lot, Katie Roiphe), so the conversation has moved on to holding rapists accountable for their actions.
“Would we be having this discussion if I said “don’t take a walk through your neighborhood late at night with a gold chain around your neck and cash hanging out of your pants”?”
Oh great, NWO’s standard analogy. Please get a new one.
Hengist, what do you NOT get about it being the rapist’s choice to rape and that all the precautions in the world won’t work? Are you just being contrary or dense?
You’re right, Hengist. It’s much better to live your life in fear, bowing to the whims of a homicidal maniac. At least that way, no one can stand around at your funeral and say you were asking for it.