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“Many feminists love rape” Another gem from Reddit

According to some MRAs, this guy doesn't care about rape

Ugh. No jokes this time, just an appalling little exchange on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit. First, a Redditor called xbyiu offers some unsolicited, and pretty pig-ignorant, thoughts about SlutWalks. The basic thesis:

Personally, I think a lot of feminists just don’t care about rape victims. They’d much rather see women as a whole being a victim of the patriarchy and fight against that sort of abstract idea then deal with the reality of rape, which can be fought against with simple tips on how to protect yourself.

Hold on; it gets worse.

To this the r/mr regular EvilPundit replied (in a comment that, last I checked, had gotten three times more upvotes than downvotes):

I’d go even further, and say that many feminists love rape. For them, it’s a perfect way to demonise men in general.

If rape didn’t exist, feminism would invent it. In fact, feminism does invent a lot of rape, with its imaginary statistics such as “1 in 4”, and so on.

In other words, feminists don’t really want to prevent rape. But most rape is imaginary. So feminists are trying to not prevent something that doesn’t much happen anyway. Brilliant.

A note on the “1 in 4” thing: EvilPundit’s insinuation that it’s an “imaginary statistic” is a common MRA talking point. It’s not imaginary, but it’s not quite accurate either.  The one-in-four number comes from a study conducted in the 80s by researcher Mary Koss: based on a detailed survey of college women, she found that roughly one in four of her respondent had been a victim of rape or attempted rape since the age of 14. This is often simplified – and distorted – into “one in four female college students are raped while in college.”

In fact, Koss’ survey found that one in eight college women answering her survey, not one in four, had been the victim of completed  rape.  Other studies have reported numbers not far off from this. The National Violence Against Women Survey, for example, found that roughly one in six of female respondents reported being the victim of rape in their lifetime.

The fact that some people have misrepresented Koss’ study doesn’t mean that her findings are “imaginary.”

I’m not even sure why I’m writing all this, given that as a feminist I presumably don’t care at all about rape.

Pic above taken from here.

EDITED TO ADD: EvilPundit’s comment has gotten some downvotes since I posted this, but it still has more upvotes than downvotes.

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Lauralot
10 years ago

Feminists don’t care about rape, so they made Slutwalks to stand against rape and slut-shaming. Do these people think before they type?

“[Rape] can be fought against with simple tips on how to protect yourself”? How is it that that MRAs can devalue and belittle women at most any opportunity, but suddenly rape is extremely easy for these useless women (who can’t even be trusted on the battlefield) to defend themselves against?

blitzgal
10 years ago

Here’s the thing, MRA assholes. I already do take common sense approaches to protecting myself from being assaulted. And I WAS STILL ASSAULTED. That’s the point feminists are trying to make!!! I’m careful to the point of paranoia, which hilariously ALSO makes you douches angry, because you accuse me of thinking every man is a rapist.

Eneya
10 years ago

I don’t understand the logic behind the quoted text, sorry, I meant “logic”, because this has as much brush with reality, as TMNT is a documentary.

So… rape does not exist as such or in very low numbers and feminists are just making it up so they can feel victims of the patriarchy but on the same note, feminists do not care about rape and in anyway, rape is easily resolved issue if women just follow the simple rules of… not existing, I believe, acording to the way discussion there has digressed?

What???
As Lauralot said, there are so many things feminism and feminists do about sexual assaults discussions and actions but somehow they also don’t care?

I don’t think Orwel had this in mind when he created the term “doublethink” but it applies perfectly in this situation.

Hengist
Hengist
10 years ago

Here’s the thing, MRA assholes. I already do take common sense approaches to protecting myself from being assaulted. And I WAS STILL ASSAULTED. That’s the point feminists are trying to make!!!

I’m sorry that happened to you, but is it really proof that there’s nothing to do to lower the risk? What you’re saying is a bit like “I wore a seatbelt and still got hurt in a car accident, therefore seat belts are useless!”

vacuumslayer
10 years ago

Tips on now to protect myself against something imaginary? That’s weird.

Here’s the only tip I need, and it’s for men: DON’T RAPE ME.

Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

Jesus, what fucking douche bags.

Lauralot
10 years ago

[blockquote]I’m sorry that happened to you, but is it really proof that there’s nothing to do to lower the risk? What you’re saying is a bit like “I wore a seatbelt and still got hurt in a car accident, therefore seat belts are useless!”[/quote]

She’s not saying nothing can be done to lower the risks of assault. She’s saying assault can still happen despite taking steps to prevent it, and so feminists focus on rape and assault, rather than caring about rape so that we can “fight against that sort of abstract idea.”

Lauralot
10 years ago

Damn blockquotes.

Toysoldier
10 years ago

Futrelle, you are the first feminist I have seen ever acknowledge that the statistic is based on accounts starting from age 14. That is an important distinction that I wish more feminists would acknowledge rather than peddle the false statement that 1 in 4 women will be raped in college.

While I disagree with the hyperbolic language those two men’s activists used, they do have a point that feminists exploit sexual violence against women as a political tool. I cannot say whether feminists do not care about female victims, however, quite often their concern is less for actually solving problems than it is for pushing the “all men are potential rapists” and “all men are responsible for rape” memes. The vast majority of men never commit sexual violence, so it makes no logical sense to go in that direction. It seems fair for some people to assume the motivation for that tactic is only to vilify men.

On a related note, I would like know some of xbyiu’s tips for preventing rape. I have never heard tips that actually work, but perhaps xbyiu stumbled upon something no one else has.

Shora
10 years ago

Hengist, car accidents are just that; accidents. No one actually tried to get into a car accident, it just happened. Rape, however, does not happen by accident. A rapist consciously decides that they are going to use another’s body without consent.

On the other hand, if someone in a car decides to mow down a pedestrian on purpose, you’re not going to turn to the pedestrian and go “Well, were you jaywalking? Because if you were jaywalking, what choice did that driver have but to point his car at you and put his foot on the gas?” are you?

Mr. Kobold
Mr. Kobold
10 years ago

“I’m sorry that happened to you, but is it really proof that there’s nothing to do to lower the risk? What you’re saying is a bit like “I wore a seatbelt and still got hurt in a car accident, therefore seat belts are useless!”

No…that was not what she is saying at at all.
Lets stick to your car talk nonsense to show what she was actually saying:

‘So I wore a seatbelt and was driving in a completely street legal manner when someone hit me on purpose. Afterwards a number of assholes asked why the hell I didn’t drive with a roll cage and a custom bumper. Instead of going after the person who hit me on purpose.’

Ugh, car analogies in regards to assault, kind of tasteless Hengist.

Shora
10 years ago

Toysoilder, what feminists are saying, by and large, is that rapists are responsible for rape and NOT victims. This is very different from saying “all men are rapists”.

Now, many feminists also say that most rape is committed by men, and so men in general are the focus of the whole “Rapist stop raping!” campaign. If you want to argue against the position that more men than women commit rape, then by all means do so without dragging out the strawfeminist.

vacuumslayer
10 years ago

Call attention to because it’s extremely fucking important=exploit.

Misogynist math is funny.

Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

What you’re saying is a bit like “I wore a seatbelt and still got hurt in a car accident, therefore seat belts are useless!”

No Hegist, it’s not. There is plenty of evidence that wearing seat belts reduces traffic fatalities. Can you show me a study that links the way a woman dresses or acts to an increased chance of being raped?

Besides, traffic accidents are just that– “accidents.” Rape is a crime that one person perpetrates against another. “She was dressed like a slut” continues to be used to blame the victim for being raped; that’s the whole point of slut walks.

Blaming a woman for being raped is like blaming a victim of a drunk driver for being in a car. If she wasn’t in the car, she wouldn’t have gotten killed, but so fucking what? The blame for the death lies with the drunk driver. The blame for a murder lies with the murderer. The blame for a rape lies with the rapist. Period.

Hengist
Hengist
10 years ago

Hengist, car accidents are just that; accidents. No one actually tried to get into a car accident, it just happened. Rape, however, does not happen by accident. A rapist consciously decides that they are going to use another’s body without consent.

True, however my analogy was about risk. Just because something happened to you even though you took precaution x, does not automatically mean that precaution x is useless and does not, in fact, lower the risk. I don’t know how to make it any clearer than that.

‘So I wore a seatbelt and was driving in a completely street legal manner when someone hit me on purpose. Afterwards a number of assholes asked why the hell I didn’t drive with a roll cage and a custom bumper. Instead of going after the person who hit me on purpose.’

That doesn’t even make sense. And if it’s so tasteless, why are you continuing it?

Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

Shora and Mr. Kobold, great minds think alike. 🙂

Kollege Messerschmitt
10 years ago

I’m sorry that happened to you, but is it really proof that there’s nothing to do to lower the risk? What you’re saying is a bit like “I wore a seatbelt and still got hurt in a car accident, therefore seat belts are useless!”

What can be done to lower the risk of rape, short of locking yourself in a bunker and never have any contact with other people again? Is there anything that doesn’t decrease your quality of life, that doesn’t make others sneer at you for being a paranoid man-hater, and that has been proven to work?

Also, to stay with your (rather tasteless) analogy, how can one be accidentally raped? As has been pointed out to you, rape is a conscious decision that a rapist makes.
They don’t just slip and accidentally rape someone.

Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

True, however my analogy was about risk. Just because something happened to you even though you took precaution x, does not automatically mean that precaution x is useless and does not, in fact, lower the risk. I don’t know how to make it any clearer than that.

Except that you haven’t presented any evidence that these Helpful Rape Avoidance Tips actually work.

Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

Close tag fail.

Hengist
Hengist
10 years ago

No Hegist, it’s not. There is plenty of evidence that wearing seat belts reduces traffic fatalities. Can you show me a study that links the way a woman dresses or acts to an increased chance of being raped?

No, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I do have a sneaking suspicion that if such a study were to appear, it would be quickly discredited and shouted down by feminists.

Blaming a woman for being raped is like blaming a victim of a drunk driver for being in a car. If she wasn’t in the car, she wouldn’t have gotten killed, but so fucking what? The blame for the death lies with the drunk driver. The blame for a murder lies with the murderer. The blame for a rape lies with the rapist. Period.

Who’s blaming women for being raped? I was talking about things one can do to lower the risk. Would we be having this discussion if I said “don’t take a walk through your neighborhood late at night with a gold chain around your neck and cash hanging out of your pants”?

LaFéministeQuébécoise

This is so crazy. Do they even think about the fact that if it wasn’t for some feminist groups, some rape victims would never ever speak of what happened?

Saying they don’t care about the victims is just…stupid.

Kollege Messerschmitt
10 years ago

True, however my analogy was about risk. Just because something happened to you even though you took precaution x, does not automatically mean that precaution x is useless and does not, in fact, lower the risk. I don’t know how to make it any clearer than that.

What are those “risks”?
Most people are raped by someone they know, and in their own home. Ergo, to decrease the risk, they should never hang out with family, friends and acquaintances, and shouldn’t stay at their own home for too long.

Do you see why this is stupid?

Shora
10 years ago

True, however my analogy was about risk. Just because something happened to you even though you took precaution x, does not automatically mean that precaution x is useless and does not, in fact, lower the risk. I don’t know how to make it any clearer than that.

I don’t know how to make it clearer that we, as human beings, cannot control the actions of human beings. Thus, if some person rapes someone, it is the rapists fault. This isn’t about risk management! I can’t manage another person’s behavior!

Hengist
Hengist
10 years ago

Also, to stay with your (rather tasteless) analogy, how can one be accidentally raped? As has been pointed out to you, rape is a conscious decision that a rapist makes.
They don’t just slip and accidentally rape someone.

At this point I can’t decide whether you all fail at reading comprehension or are just garden-variety stupid. The analogy was about risk and precautions, not the voluntary/non-voluntary nature of the act. It doesn’t deal with that issue. Seriously, if you’re so desperate to disagree with me on something, at least address my actual points.

Shora
10 years ago

Who’s blaming women for being raped? I was talking about things one can do to lower the risk. Would we be having this discussion if I said “don’t take a walk through your neighborhood late at night with a gold chain around your neck and cash hanging out of your pants”?

Can we please stop equating my right to not have my body violated with having a couple bucks stolen? Thanks

Bostonian
Bostonian
10 years ago

Time for

Rape Prevention tips that Actually work!

Tired of the same old tips about wearing longer skirts and always keeping an eye on your drink? Wish there was something that actually worked? Wonder no more! Here are two lists of fool-proof ways sexual assault can be prevented.

Don’t put drugs in people’s drinks in order to control their behavior.

When you see someone walking by themselves, leave them alone!

If you pull over to help someone with car problems, remember not to assault them!

NEVER open an unlocked door or window uninvited.

If you are in an elevator and someone else gets in, DON’T ASSAULT THEM!

Remember, people go to laundry to do their laundry, do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.

USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM! If you are not able to stop yourself from assaulting people, ask a friend to stay with you while you are in public.

Always be honest with people! Don’t pretend to be a caring friend in order to gain the trust of someone you want to assault. Consider telling them you plan to assault them. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the other person may take that as a sign that you do not plan to rape them.

Don’t forget: you can’t have sex with someone unless they are awake!

Carry a whistle! If you are worried you might assault someone “on accident” you can hand it to the person you are with, so they can blow it if you do.

And, ALWAYS REMEMBER: if you didn’t ask permission and then respect the answer the first time, you are committing a crime- no matter how “into it” others appear to be.

Eneya
10 years ago

http://downlo.tumblr.com/post/10176644689/a-useful-rape-analogy

Talking about rape analogies, oldie but goodie.

Also… I want to hear what kind of precatuions can one take so no douchebags outhere would think that women’s bodies are public property and can be used and abused as they please without any consequences? Because I’d sure love to hear that.

Hengist
Hengist
10 years ago

I don’t know how to make it clearer that we, as human beings, cannot control the actions of human beings. Thus, if some person rapes someone, it is the rapists fault. This isn’t about risk management! I can’t manage another person’s behavior!

I don’t think anyone was arguing rape was not, in fact, the rapist’s fault. I was talking about things you can/cannot do to make yourself a target. Now if I understand you and the others correctly, there is nothing one can do, in fact, to lower the risk. I’m not sure I agree with this.

Bostonian
Bostonian
10 years ago

By the way that was not originally from me, I shamelessly copied it from here

http://www.godlessgirl.com/2009/09/sexual-assult-prevention-tips-that-really-work/

KathleenB
KathleenB
10 years ago

Would we be having this discussion if I said “don’t take a walk through your neighborhood late at night with a gold chain around your neck and cash hanging out of your pants”?

We probably wouldn’t, but we should. Why do we accept that certain things ‘just happen?’ Leaving your car out in the wrong place, wearing nice clothes, we just kind of accept, at some point, that the victim of some crimes must have done something wrong. Human beings have this amazing thing called self-control. Leaving your car out or wearing jewelry or dressing a certain way should NOT automatically make you responsible for someone else’s actions.

vacuumslayer
10 years ago

Luckily we don’t care if you agree or not.

Hengist
Hengist
10 years ago

Can we please stop equating my right to not have my body violated with having a couple bucks stolen? Thanks

How about “walk through a Crips neighborhood wearing Bloods colors, get the crap beaten out of you” – would that be a better analogy?

vacuumslayer
10 years ago

Not really since you can control things like dress and where you walk. Unforntately I can’t change my gender, WHICH IS ALL IT TAKES TO GET RAPED.

blitzgal
10 years ago

I cannot say whether feminists do not care about female victims, however, quite often their concern is less for actually solving problems than it is for pushing the “all men are potential rapists” and “all men are responsible for rape” memes.

Please give specific examples of how this is the case. The fact that feminists generally do not focus on “tips to avoid rape” is because those have already permeated our culture to such a degree that every woman can recite them by rote. These tips include common sense ones, like locking your doors and windows at night and not accepting an open drink from a stranger, to the more bizarre ones, like don’t wear your hair in a ponytail and don’t park next to a van. Carry your keys between your fingers to use as a weapon. Check under your car as you approach it to make sure no one is underneath. Don’t drink. Don’t go outside after dark. Don’t be alone with a strange man.

The fact remains that a person who follows all of these rules can still be assaulted, so isn’t it obvious at that point that SOMETHING ELSE should be considered? And the irony of these rules is that a woman* who tries to follow every single one is usually called “paranoid” and accused of having a “victim mentality” and a “man hater.” Either way, the focus and blame is assigned to US.

It’s not my problem that some men react to any discussion of rape by assuming that all men are being vilified. To quote a previous post, stop snowflaking. If you don’t rape, then WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU when we discuss this issue. But I will say that if you are one of those people who are continually dismissive of this issue and presume that the majority of women are lying about their experiences, then you are still causing harm.

*Basic disclaimer to note that I am fully aware that a) men and boys can be raped and b) women can sexually assault people — the person who assaulted me is female.

Hengist
Hengist
10 years ago

We probably wouldn’t, but we should. Why do we accept that certain things ‘just happen?’ Leaving your car out in the wrong place, wearing nice clothes, we just kind of accept, at some point, that the victim of some crimes must have done something wrong. Human beings have this amazing thing called self-control. Leaving your car out or wearing jewelry or dressing a certain way should NOT automatically make you responsible for someone else’s actions.

In an ideal world, sure. But we don’t live in an ideal world, and things happen. This is why we need to take precautions. Personally, I’d rather not walk around at night with a wad of cash hanging out of my pocket because I count on my own preparedness more than other people’s self-control, and if I get robbed it won’t be much comfort to think it was the robber’s fault and I’m not responsible.

Kollege Messerschmitt
10 years ago

I don’t think anyone was arguing rape was not, in fact, the rapist’s fault. I was talking about things you can/cannot do to make yourself a target. Now if I understand you and the others correctly, there is nothing one can do, in fact, to lower the risk. I’m not sure I agree with this.

I’m still curious as to what those risks are.

Bostonian
Bostonian
10 years ago

What is the equivalent of Blood colors in a Crips neighborhood for rape victims?

In point of fact, I was wearing Garanaimals clothing when I was raped. What should I have been wearing?

(In my defense, I was five at the time)

Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

Who’s blaming women for being raped?

Quite a few people, actually. I’m glad to hear that you don’t count yourself among them. Nevertheless, judging by the stories here and elsewhere, it looks as though most women already take common-sense approaches to avoid being assaulted–and they still get assaulted. Maybe these approaches help, maybe they don’t, but they certainly aren’t the end-all and be-all that the “You Just Need To Do X To Avoid Being Raped” crowd makes them out to be.

Frankly, I can’t think of a better example of Mansplaining than telling women what they need to do to avoid being raped, especially in the absence of supporting evidence. Coming from a man, it comes off as condescending and offensive.

Shora
10 years ago

Hengist, there is a hop skip and a jump from “Do this to help prevent being raped” to “Oh, you didn’t do that? Then it’s your fault

When I go to parties, I watch my drinks, stick to my friends, and be careful what I wear. If I didn’t do these things, and still got raped, it would still be the fault of the rapist. But also, doing these things won’t prevent getting raped by my best friend, or boyfriend, or husband, which I think (though I am not sure) happens more than the typical frat party rape trope.

Also, if we’re too careful, we’re man-hating, hysterical, and paranoid.

Hengist
Hengist
10 years ago

Not really since you can control things like dress and where you walk. Unforntately I can’t change my gender, WHICH IS ALL IT TAKES TO GET RAPED.

So you’re claiming that style of dress and behavior have absolutely no bearing on a woman’s risk to be assaulted, is this correct?

Eneya
10 years ago

I always cringe about the money analogy… really, my body is actually a golden chaing/cash of money and I tightly hide it, nobody would assault me?
Quick! Someone tell that to the women who are raped though in burqas… obviously they can’t have been raped since they have been clothed enough.

What ammound of clothes, I wonder would be deemed sufficent?
Because clothes more and more prove insufficent and maybe we need to move to something like hamsterballs so nobody can forse their way into our close environment?

Rape preventions starts from not allowing people to think that they can go and rape someone… at least this is how I see it. On the same note as “people would not think that killing other people is OK”

Lauralot
10 years ago

Using seat belts as a risk/precaution against car accidents doesn’t work as an analogy, now that I think of it. Seat belts aren’t intended to prevent car accidents, they’re meant to protect the driver and passengers in the event of an accident. Now if someone had been in a car crash, suffered injuries the seat belt was intended to prevent, and then declared seat belts to be useless, that would work as an analogy. It would still be a bad analogy, but it would actually work.

KathleenB
KathleenB
10 years ago

Hemgist: Well, the best way to prevent rape is to teach men not to do it. But that’s misandry. Teaching women that they bear part or most of the responsibility for sexual assault, though, that fine and shiny.

Kollege Messerschmitt
10 years ago

So you’re claiming that style of dress and behavior have absolutely no bearing on a woman’s risk to be assaulted, is this correct?

DING! DING! DING!
We have a winner! That is, indeed, correct!

blitzgal
10 years ago

During a discussion of Slutwalks (which I did NOT bring up; they were being discussed as a “stupid stunt”), I had the following argument with a guy. He claimed that it was obvious that wearing revealing clothing increases your risk of being raped. I pointed out that children as young as six months and women as old as 96 have been raped — his response is that those are merely “outliers.” He then went on pose the following premise: “If there is a serial rapist who is raping blonde women, and blonde women refuse to dye their hair, don’t they bear some responsibility if they are then raped?” My response: “Okay, every single woman in the city has now done the responsible thing and dyed her her blonde. Does this guy magically stop raping now?” I just got an eyeroll.

vacuumslayer
10 years ago

So you’re claiming that style of dress and behavior have absolutely no bearing on a woman’s risk to be assaulted, is this correct?

Can’t say for sure. What I CAN say for sure is that women get raped when they’re drunk; they get raped when they’re sober. They get raped when they’re dressed sexily; they get raped when they’re dressed modestly. They get raped in nice neighborhoods; they get raped in not-so-nice ones. They raped in the day; they get raped in the night. They get raped indoors and out. They get raped in cars and outside them. They get raped by dates and by strangers. What is the same in all these scenarios is the fact they remain the same gender.

And, yes, men get raped, too. Acknowledged.

Hengist
Hengist
10 years ago

It’s not my problem that some men react to any discussion of rape by assuming that all men are being vilified. To quote a previous post, stop snowflaking. If you don’t rape, then WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU when we discuss this issue. But I will say that if you are one of those people who are continually dismissive of this issue and presume that the majority of women are lying about their experiences, then you are still causing harm.

“It’s not my problem that some women react to any discussion of women being false, calculating gold-diggers by assuming that all women are being vilified. If you’re not a golddigger, then WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU. But I will say that if you are one of those people who are continually dismissive of this issue and presume that the majority of men are lying about their experiences, then you are still causing harm”.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
10 years ago

Hengist, here are some specific problems with telling women what they should or shouldn’t do to prevent rape. Why should women lose freedom that men enjoy just because they are more likely to be victims of rape? Women should feel free to walk alone, drink at bars, and do anything that is legal for them to do. A lot of the advice doesn’t apply to the reality of rape, anyway. Why tell women they should stay at home all the time when the home is the most likely place for rape to occur? Some of the advice is sexist against men. If you advise women to avoid dressing sexy because it makes men rape them, then you are saying that men have no self control. Most men would never rape, no matter how sexy women look around them.

vacuumslayer
10 years ago

“It’s not my problem that some women react to any discussion of women being false, calculating gold-diggers by assuming that all women are being vilified. If you’re not a golddigger, then WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU. But I will say that if you are one of those people who are continually dismissive of this issue and presume that the majority of men are lying about their experiences, then you are still causing harm”.

I would say it’s pretty easy to avoid dating and/or marrying gold diggers. Avoiding rapists is an entirely different animal.

That was a really cute try though! *pats head*

Kollege Messerschmitt
10 years ago

“If there is a serial rapist who is raping blonde women, and blonde women refuse to dye their hair, don’t they bear some responsibility if they are then raped?” My response: “Okay, every single woman in the city has now done the responsible thing and dyed her her blonde. Does this guy magically stop raping now?” I just got an eyeroll.

Does he really think that would make women who were raped responsible???
Holy shit, I’m sorry you had to deal with such an assclarinet.

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