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bad boys beta males douchebaggery evil women men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny nice guys PUA thug-lovers violence against men/women

Lady Killers 2: Electric Boogaloo

Well, here’s a new twist on the whole “women love assholes” thing. According to the blogger known as Vox Day – a sort of right-wing/PUA hybrid – the best way for a fella to capture the attention of a comely lass is to rape and murder another comely lass. Yep. He seems to have confused “Game” — that is, pick-up artist trickery — with The Most Dangerous Game. Oh, Vox stops short of recommending that his readers actually go out and murder women, but he argues this women-love-killers argument in all seriousness:

I don’t believe I could recommend this as a strategy for most men, but it is surely educational to learn that raping and killing a woman is demonstrably more attractive to women than behaving like a gentleman. And women, before all the inevitable snowflaking commences, please note that there is absolutely nothing to argue about here. It is an established empirical fact.

His empirical “proof” of this assertion? The fact that some Japanese women have set up online fan clubs for Tatsuya Ichihashi, an accused murderer.

From this one data point, Vox seems to have made a somewhat hasty generalization based on the notion that all women are the same person – that is, if one woman thinks or does something, all women think or do that same thing.

Yes, there are  women — and men — who find themselves attracted to vile human beings. Some women idolize murderers. Some men think Ann Coulter is hot.  That doesn’t mean that all women idolize murderers or that all men want to get it on with Ms. Coulter. It just means that some people have really, really, really appalling taste.

But let’s just assume for a moment that Vox’s basic premise is true: all women love violent psycopaths,. If you’ want to get with the ladies, but aren’t so hard up for a date that you’re actually willing to resort to homicide, is there some other way you convey what a violent psychopath you are to the ladies of the world? Yep, says Vox:

[I]f you are being introduced to a woman you find attractive, she will be more attracted to you if you slap her in the face without warning and walk away without explanation than if you smile and tell her that you are very pleased to meet her. Now this, being a mere hypothesis, can be argued. And tested, if you’re feeling especially scientific this weekend.

I really hope none of his readers take him up on this.

Is Vox being altogether serious about this? Yes and no. About the idea that women love killers? Absolutely serious. About actually assaulting women? He’s a bit more cagey. On his blog Alpha Game, Vox elaborates:

Women find it sexier for you to rape and kill a woman than putting them on pedestals and being a nice guy. I’m not saying that you should rape and kill anyone, but I would recommend, at the very least, dropping the nice guy routine and pushing over the pedestals.

Women have plenty of positive attributes. But they’re not angels, and when it comes to what sexually attracts them, even the nice, well-bred ones are more insanely twisted, from the male perspective, than the average serial killer.

So apparently the only truly happy couples in the world are those in which both partners think like serial killers.

What a romantic!

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CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

@ kathleenb – your cat is a Mau? No wonder she’s so pretty.

I think someone is running a backyard breeding operation for Maine Coons in my area, because there are tons of them showing up at shelters. Which is a shame, because they’re lovely cats, but hard to adopt because not everyone wants a cat that will be at least 15 pounds.

KathleenB
KathleenB
9 years ago

Cassandra: We’re pretty sure Kami is mostly mau – she has the skin flap and the spots. And her eyes are starting to go from amber to that gooseberry green – kinda freaky looking, I must say.

KathleenB
KathleenB
9 years ago

And lots of the neighborhood cats are spotted with green eyes – some look like they’re mixed with tortie and a few look like maybe orange tiger? They all have the forehead scarab, too.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

OMG, we’re talking about cats! Do cat ladies make Hengist feel all castrated the same way women in academia apparently do?

My new kitty has yellow eyes and it’s weird, that freaked me out at first (I chose her because of personality, the fact that she’s gorgeous is just a bonus), but I’ve gotten used to it. Red eyes I think might bother me – I think that might be why I find Neopolitan Mastiffs a bit scary even though I’m not scared of Mastiffs in general.

Flib
Flib
9 years ago

Wait? How do cat ladies in academia fit into this? How can we measure their effect on Hengist?

Dracula
Dracula
9 years ago

I think the theory goes that if you’re a woman and you own any more than zero cats, it means you are desperately lonely and miserable and always will be. If you’re a man, it means you’re gay or secretly a woman. All evidence to the contrary is to be ignored.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

And if you’re David, it means that you have been forced into cat ownership by women’s refusal to be fluffy and compliant.

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

And if you’re David, it means that you have been forced into cat ownership by women’s refusal to be fluffy and compliant.

HOLD ON:
What evidence do we have that DKM isn’t a housecat? It all fits! The fur, the hatred of most humans, the vindictiveness, the smugness…

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

The brain the size of a walnut, the manic energy…

KathleenB
KathleenB
9 years ago

I dunno, that sounds kind of insulting to cats… My cats don’t demand absolute submission of anyone. That counts as a point in their favor, in my eyes.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

My theory is that David is actually Mr Bigglesworth. They defrosted him, gave him a laptop, and never apologised about the whole sending into space thing, and now he’s pissed.

Rutee Katreya
9 years ago

And if you’re David, it means that you have been forced into cat ownership by women’s refusal to be fluffy and compliant.

Tell me you’re kidding. THere is no way anyone bought a *CAT* because *WOMEN* weren’t sufficiently compliant.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Hey, nobody ever said that his decision making skills were impressive.

ithiliana
9 years ago

HENGIST: You’re the middle-aged lesbian women’s studies teacher who avoids men, right?

HELLKELL: Not even close* but keeping trying. Your little insults are cute. Not tired memes at all, sir!

*waves hands and jumps up and down*

I’m the 55 year old QUEER (NOT lesbian) woman who is an academic (NOT women’s studies, my university doesn’t have it, so I’m doing all the queer stuff in a humanities department) whose partner is yes a woman and who does not have any major involvements with men in my personal life (too boring and all want mommies) although I have perfectly collegial relationships with other faculty! So suck on it, we’re both women, we’re in a life partnership, and neither one of us is a lesbian, neener neener neener (nothing wrong with lesbians of course, but we’re just not one–there is more to sexuality than hetero/homosexual, ya know! Or, well, Hengist doesn’t know of course).

So maybe he remembers MEEEEEEEEEEE!

And I don’t give dating advice.

Because I never really dated. It was the 70s, what can I say. We just went out in groups, drank, and had sex with each other. Especially on the tequila nights.

Then I gave up sex with men in the 1980s, because, well, BORING.

ithiliana
9 years ago

CATZ!

We have five at the moment (just lost my lovely 18 year old Tamar two days ago).

But at our height of animal rescue-dom, we had 13. All indoor.

And four outdoor dogs (we’re down to 2 now). (They’re in the office with me as I type).

We stopped rescuing a few years back so we could retire and move out of Texas without um double digit animals.

We r cat ladiez!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

That’s the other thing – even if everyone here did fit Hengist’s stereotypes, what’s wrong with academics, or cat ladies, or lesbians? I quite like many people in all 3 categories. These are only insults if you think that all women are fixated not only on getting a man, but specifically on getting a man like Hengist. Which, um, no thanks, I’ll pass.

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

(just lost my lovely 18 year old Tamar two days ago).

I’m sorry for your loss.

KathleenB
KathleenB
9 years ago

ithiliana: So sorry to hear about your kitty!

red_locker
9 years ago

On the subject of cats, I have been having stray cats come to my backyard for 6 years now. I do get the traps and everything, but some…I like to keep, and they’re nice companions.

That’s probably a bad thing I’m doing, though.

KathleenB
KathleenB
9 years ago

red_locker: Both of our cats are former street kitties. Stranger came to us front-declawed and fixed and maybe a year old. Kami we found next to the house after my sister’s dog scared her mother away. I wouldn’t trade either of them for the world, even if Kami is a little bit crazy. The main problems we had were fleas and worms. Fleas just took work and patience, the worms… the chemical dewormers give Stranger seizures. We finally had to get food-grade fossil shell flour and mix it into their food. Worked like a charm!

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Ithiliana: I’m sorry for your loss.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
9 years ago

I have read Kathryrn Joyce’s book Quiverfull and it did an excellent job describing the courtship rituals one would need to do to marry a woman from their movement. Quiverfull groups tend to be cautious about exposing their members to outside influences, so it is very difficult to get permission to begin courting a young woman unless you are yourself from another Quiverfull family. A potential suitor for a young woman is supposed to write a letter to the father expressing his dedication to Quiverfull goals, especially the requirement to not use birth control and be open to a large family. The letter is also supposed to show how the man intends to financially provide for his wife and future children, since it is not allowed for their women to work outside the home.

If the father approves of the suitor, he will then allow the two to begin courting. When they are courting, they are engaged and go on dates with chaperones. The chaperones are there to prevent any sex from occurring before the wedding. The courtship stage ends with the wedding. If you’re wondering what say the young woman has in this, it just depends on if her father is kind enough to consider her desires when he makes the choice. She could also leave the church to make her own choices, but that’s very difficult for someone that has been raised in such a cult like environment her whole life.

If a man really wants to marry a traditional, submissive virgin, then he could join other strict fundamentalist churches to find one. Many of them, like the mega churches, have that type of women but they also allow their users to use contraception. I’m not sure many of the men that complain about a lack of submissive women would actually want to commit to the Quiverfull lifestyle, especially the part about having very large families.

Dracula
Dracula
9 years ago

I’m sorry Ithiliana. It’s very hard to lose a kitty. I actually have to have my cat put down, probably on Monday.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
9 years ago

Ithiliana and Dracula, I’m sorry about your kitties.

Hershele Ostropoler
9 years ago

Hengist:

I don’t give a shit whether you get laid or not. You have a moral obligation to respect people’s boundaries and not to be a douche WITHOUT a corresponding entitlement.

See, this is what I mean. Any dating “tips” coming from feminists are nothing but snark, insults and man-blaming.

That’s not dating advice, though. Nor is it man-blaming.

But what’s wrong with “don’t be creepy” as advice, anyway?

red_locker
9 years ago

KathleenB: Aww, that’s sweet.

And I’ll third the condolences for Ithiliana and Dracula. 🙁

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

I’m sorry Ithiliana. It’s very hard to lose a kitty. I actually have to have my cat put down, probably on Monday.

Oh shit, I’m so sorry. I was hoping she’d get better.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Hengist: Fine, you’re the exception to the rule. Happy? Doesn’t change the fact that 99% of the time, a feminist’s response to a guy looking for dating advice is to attack him and make fun of him. It’s what they do best; they don’t know anything else.

I see the NWO School of Statistics has another student.

[citation needed]

Pecunium
9 years ago

I see Hengist is losing his cool.

The funny thing is, he got what he asked for. He said there wasn’t any dating advice from feminists. He got it.

He’s also getting the pleasure of reaping what he’s been sowing, though it seems he isn’t quite enjoying the fruits of his labors.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Ithiliana/Dracula, My condolence.

I still miss my dogs, and don’t get to visit the cats I was living with often enough (a continent between me and them).

I won’t even say how sad I am at that continent being between me and the horses.

ozymandias42
9 years ago

thebionicmommy: FUCK am I glad I’m not a Quiverfull woman… I don’t think that’s what D3’s looking for, though.

D3, have you read Mousie’s Abstinent Sexblog? He’s kinky, abstinent Christian man who’s quite romantically successful. Perhaps you could ask him for advice.

Rutee Katreya
9 years ago

I didn’t mean Quiverful as the end all, they’re just the only name I know to attach to one of those heavy Christian subcultures that specifies the archaic rules for the middle class for all adherents. I’m sure there’s others, and there should be one that roughly matches his desires.

This is legitimate advice. I don’t know what EXACTLY he wants and believes, but I’m sure there’s a reasonably sized group out there that believes in it too. It’s going to go a lot farther with him than most, because he has extremely specific ideas about what dating should be. But I can’t give him, well, the strategy guide he seems to be demanding, because even if it were possible, I don’t know him or the landscape well enough to do it (But it isn’t possible). He’s just going to have to do his own heavy lifting. But it’s seriously a better idea than trying to flail against the general dating culture he hates.

Developers^3
Developers^3
9 years ago

@Rutee
Well, if it isn’t Rutee… I have to ask, do you use your intelligence and whit for things other than posting snark on the Internet?

Actually, that is a bit harsh of me. You make a few reasonable points.

There’s one big problem with suggesting that I join the quiverfull movement:
I don’t believe in “God”. Or, at the very least, I don’t believe in the Christian idea of God as some sort of knowable entity who sent his only son to die for our sins, etc…

Most of these Christian groups place some emphasis on spouses being “evenly yoked”, sharing roughly the same devotion to the church. Others, require both parties to be members in the church for the church to give recognition to the union. Thus, I would be considered a bad potential husband on the grounds of my spiritual beliefs alone.

This is villification to you? This sounds like a game women are rigged to lose.

Let me phrase this in terms of a real-world example: Remember elevator-gate?

I tend to think that neither party did anything ethically wrong. Elevator guy was not wrong to talk to that woman and that woman was not wrong to tell him to leave her alone. She also wasn’t wrong to say that such actions annoy her.

Look at the feminist response. Would I be wrong to classify that as “This man is an evil, vile, villainous potential rapist”. That is the an prime example philosophy of that essay. We aren’t allowed to screw up. Ever. That is villification.

Is this really the model we want for interacting with our fellow human beings?

That would be because you are an asshole. I’ve seen it numerous times, complete with advice on what to do, as well as what not to do.

I fail to see the logical connection between the fact that I’m an asshole and the the fact I haven’t found many workable suggestions from your worldview that don’t in some way make me out to be an evil, awful person.

What I want isn’t the social norm either. But unlike you, I hung around where it *IS* the norm and have found a number of potential partners, and my actual girlfriend who I want to marry, all of whom value this thing. But then, I love *smart people*, and myself am fairly smart. I can actually think about how to get what I want. You, apparently, have never thought to go where the people value what you value.

I think you are attacking a strawman here. I’m perfectly okay with not having my desires as the social norm. I mean, it would be great if it worked that way, but your freedom trumps my desires every day of the week. What I’m objecting to is the fact that I can’t express my desires AND that I can no longer assume my desires are universal. This means, I can’t really be honest with any potential partner. I’d be perfectly happy if either of those conditions were met.

I have given some thought about where to look. You see, we end up with the same problem I mentioned at the start of the post. The social libertines reject me for my prudishness, the social conservatives reject me for my lack of faith.

I’m glad you have the support of such a community. Alas, as far as I can see, I don’t think I have that option.

@Molly Ren

What *do* you want, Hengist?

I wouldn’t know, since I’m not Hengist. What’s he got to do with my post?

@CassandraSays

You still seem to think that this is some sort of contradiction, but it really isn’t. The PUA movement exists in order to provide people with dating advice (well, more honestly it exists to provide people with advice on how to get casual sex, but still). We mock them because their advice doesn’t work very well (and is occasionally kind of psychotic in the case of dudes like Gunwitch, or full of amusing hyperbole like Roissy). Feminism, on the other hand, is not a movement that exists in order to provide dating advice. That’s not it’s primary purpose. I can see that you think that providing dating advice should be part of feminism’s purpose, but that’s just because you’re hilariously self-centered. When you meditate do you chant “me” instead of “om”?

You make a valid point. However, this doesn’t mean that you can simply say “not our problem” and walk way. If you want to change significant changes to our culture, it’s perfectly reasonable for someone to ask “If you do that, how am I supposed to get what I want from life?”. If you want to change the rules of how courtship works, then it’s perfectly right for someone to ask, “Okay then, how am I supposed to find a spouse?”.

Consider this response to that line of reasoning. “Nor is Liberalism an employment service. Nevertheless leftists generally take the view that society ought to do something to help the unemployed.”

@PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
Thank you. I’ll gave that link a look a bit later.

Begin by getting a hobby. Seriously-get a hobby where there is a good mix of people male and female

This is particularly difficult for me since I go to a University that is particularly well known for engineering. Thus, even non-engineering groups like Symphony have a lot more guys than gals.

Re: Cats
Now that I think about it, I realize that all of the older ladies that love cats or have a great number of them are happily married. So, if anything there is a correlation between between number of cats and marital success. 🙂

Re: Traditionalism
You know, I have somewhat mixed thoughts on traditionalism. There are some aspects I like an awful lot, like making marriage and family one’s top priority, valuing commitment, loyalty and chastity, and the ideal of marriage as “the two becoming one”. There are also some things I specifically dislike. I don’t want a submissive wife, and I feel that the quality of your parenting matters a whole heckofa more than the number of children. There are other things that I feel a distinct “meh” about. I really don’t care about “traditional gender roles” and I have no problems with doing housework and childcare, or even being a stay-at-home dad if that is what makes sense for my family. On the flip side, I want to be with someone who is willing to be a stay-at-home mom if that is what we decide is best for our family.

shaenon
9 years ago

I’m sorry, did I just witness the following conversation?

Hengist: The problem with feminism is that it doesn’t work hard enough to get me laid! I demand that feminists provide me with dating advice, STAT!

Manboobz People: Okay, here’s my personal advice…

Hengist: Your advice sucks and you’re secretly insulting me! I want better feminist dating advice! Prove that feminism is taking my wiener and its problems seriously!

Manboobz People: Fine. Here are links to several sites with well-thought-out feminist dating advice, from both men and women.

Hengist: I can’t use this advice! It comes from FEMINISTS!

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

Except that one of these people is Developers^3, you just about nailed it.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

@ hellkell – I agree with you about the fact that these guys can’t bear the idea of anyone who doesn’t agree with them being happy. It’s weird – I don’t want the life that, say, Developers wants, but I feel no particular need to wish unhappiness on him for that reason. It takes a very specific sort of person to be so invested in the idea that anyone who doesn’t want what they want out of life must secretly be miserable, and it’s really not a mentally or emotionally healthy way to approach life. In fact the defining characteristic of most MRAs seems to be a sort of semi-incoherent rage about the fact that the world doesn’t work the way they think it should. For the ones who’re looking for a partner, it’s pretty much impossible to give them any useful advice because the real issue is that nobody wants to get involved with a person who walks around full of rage all the time. On the internet it’s easy enough to just mock these guys, but in real life people who’re that angry are terrifying, and when women react to these guys with (perfectly reasonable) fear that just makes them even angrier.

@ Developers – Eh, your argument really doesn’t work. For starters, relationships aren’t feminism’s only focus, and talking to a feminist whose focus is on, say, employment law in an effort to get dating advice isn’t going to go very well because hey, that’s not what she’s focused on. I think feminism gets more of these “but this is my issue and it’s important to me so you need to stop what you’re doing and help me figure it out!” demands than most other social justice movements because of the way people are socialized to see women in general as maternal, nurturing, etc. You can always interrupt mom when you need something, right? And that attitude carries over into adult life in a lot of ways for a lot of people.

At best feminists would be a good source of advice as to how to get into a relationship with a feminist, or how to negotiate gender equality stuff once you’re in a relationship, but if your question is “how do I find a spouse who wants to focus on raising children in a somewhat traditional environment?” then first of all, like I said, that’s not necessarily a focus for many of us, and secondly, a lot of us don’t have any particular knowledge to offer because it’s too far outside our own experience. I’m a woman who’s never wanted kids and who only got married because my partner and I had to do so in order for us to live in the same country – what do I know about how to find a woman who wants to have kids with you? Not a lot, really – you’d be better off asking women who have the same goal as you do.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Shorter Hengist – Even though you want nothing to do with my weiner it’s still your responsibility! Except that I know that really you can’t help me at all because you’re all crazy man-hating bitches…but still, why aren’t you more focused on helping me? If you don’t want to assist my weiner in finding happiness you must be ugly.

Hengist
Hengist
9 years ago

@ hellkell – I’m kind of curious to see how many different feminist stereotypes Hengist will trot out in this one conversation. So far we have Miss Jean Brodie and an ivory tower Women’s Studies professor, right?

Is it still a stereotype if it actually describes the person? Admittedly I had the wrong person, it was ithilianna I was thinking of.

Did we have a lonely cat lady too?

I don’t know, do you?

Now me, I’m an entertainment reporter, with a heavy focus on music. My job was once described by a friend as “get paid to hang out with rock stars” (which is actually too narrow a definition – I get paid to hang out with and interview designers, writers, comic book artists, and sometimes actors too).

Cool, what publication(s) do you write for? I’d be interested in seeing your work, got any links?

I get the feeling that Hengist honestly believes that the only women who think he’s kind of an idiot are the ones who fit the classic Fox TV idea of what a feminist is. He’s rather comically wrong about that – in fact I’m sure that there are women from just about every possible walk of life who think Hengist is ridiculous. Men too.

If you’re saying that the Boob Gang represents an accurate microcosm of the society I live in, I have to say I’ve got my reservations about that. :p

Mr. Money: I see Hengist is losing his cool.

He’s also getting the pleasure of reaping what he’s been sowing, though it seems he isn’t quite enjoying the fruits of his labors.

Are we at the “I bet we’re getting to you now!” stage already? (Also known as “oh, he mad!”) Well, when you spend as much time posting here as you do, I guess it helps your self-esteem to think that you’ve really gotten under my skin, or something. Doesn’t affect me either way, so knock yourself out. :p

Shaenon: I’m sorry, did I just witness the following conversation?

No, you didn’t. It was more like:

Hengist: The problem is that feminists love to mock PUAs yet offer no useful dating advice themselves.

Boobz: Nuh-uh! Here’s some articles about “dating while feminist” and by the way, don’t be a douchebag! Heh, snort snort.

Hengist: Those don’t really help me, I’m not interested in either becoming a feminist or dating one. I was talking about advice for the average guy.

Boobz: *snark, sarcasm, insults*

Hengist: You know, I now realize it was silly to ask a feminist group for this. I retract the question.

Boobz: We’re just gonna ignore what you said so we can continue insulting you! I’m not your mommy! Feminists don’t owe you anything! blah blah you suck blah blah!

You’re welcome.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Why exactly would I out myself, using my real name, to a hostile stranger on the internet?

Oh Hengist. Just because you’re kind of dim sometimes doesn’t mean that the rest of us are too.

Rutee Katreya
9 years ago

Well, if it isn’t Rutee… I have to ask, do you use your intelligence and whit for things other than posting snark on the Internet?

It’s wit. And yes, obviously.

I tend to think that neither party did anything ethically wrong. Elevator guy was not wrong to talk to that woman and that woman was not wrong to tell him to leave her alone. She also wasn’t wrong to say that such actions annoy her.

No, Elevator Guy was wrong. You have to take the FULL CONTEXT OF THINGS into account; Watson had just that day given a huge lecture about how the constant attempts to pick up women at atheist conferences are extremely vexing, and fucking stop it, it’s keeping women out. She had, just before leaving, specifically said she was tired, and wanted to sleep. What elevator guy did was legal, but it was not really an ‘ethical’ action because it was obviously annoying her, and it was grossly stupid on his part besides.

Look at the feminist response. Would I be wrong to classify that as “This man is an evil, vile, villainous potential rapist”.

Yes. Yes you would be wrong, because you are stupid and your reading comprehension is piss poor. That is not the idea of Schrodinger’s rapist. You are not an evil vile person merely for existing. However, many women can not trust you because they do not know whether or not you are a rapist. This is how not to throw up red flags. And the basic rule is “Respect boundaries in general”.

That is the an prime example philosophy of that essay. We aren’t allowed to screw up. Ever. That is villification.

Because women can screw up. You really have no idea how the other half lives, do you?

Is this really the model we want for interacting with our fellow human beings?

I know you’re slow witted; let me bring you up to speed.

The state of affairs that Schrodinger’s rapist refers to is a result of rape culture. If women in the US did not have a 1/6 chance of rape, USian women would probably be less nervous. One of the goals of feminists in western society is to end their particular rape culture. That way women don’t have to live in fear. If they don’t have to live in fear, they can more easily trust that you will not cause them harm. This benefits you too.

Now you can stop complaining at the people who ultimately want to solve the problem. Because women didn’t start distrusting men because of the Schrodinger’s rapist essay. That essay was for your benefit; this is what culture does to women, whether or not the effects are written about. Now you have an idea of how it feels, and you can perhaps understand a bit better why a woman might be scared. And you know, maybe help us end rape culture, even in small ways. Again, you benefit, although not as much as we do.

There’s one big problem with suggesting that I join the quiverfull movement:
I don’t believe in “God”. Or, at the very least, I don’t believe in the Christian idea of God as some sort of knowable entity who sent his only son to die for our sins, etc…

[s]Of course you don’t. I need to go punch the evopsych out of the atheist movement at some point.[/s] Actually wait, I do need to do that anyway, even if you’re not a traditionalist for it.

valuing commitment, loyalty and chastity, and the ideal of marriage as “the two becoming one”. There are also some things I specifically dislike. I don’t want a submissive wife, and I feel that the quality of your parenting matters a whole heckofa more than the number of children.

I still gave you advice outside of hardcore christian groups, though. Find someone who knows the general public’s dating rules, and ask/beg/cajole them into telling you the normal rules for dating. [s]I’m not sure where you should go for a June Cleaver with good odds; maybe there just isn’t one, it is vanishing, and not soon enough.[/s] I can tell you don’t know those dating rules, though, and it’s gonna go a lot better when you learn them. ‘Normal’ people have a lot of rituals that go into dating, and I don’t know them all, only that they exist and are a nuisance (and that not knowing them will murder your dating chances).

I fail to see the logical connection between the fact that I’m an asshole and the the fact I haven’t found many workable suggestions from your worldview that don’t in some way make me out to be an evil, awful person.

Can you see yourself rushing to give useful advice to someone who personally pisses you off? Are you really so stupid or entitled that you honestly think feminists are going to automatically respond to your requests for help after you annoy them?

What I’m objecting to is the fact that I can’t express my desires AND that I can no longer assume my desires are universal

Oh my god, you are immune to even unsubtle advice given by others.

Let me be crystal clear: No, you can not say “I WANT MARRIAGE” on date 1. It’s coming on too fucking strong. You *can* start to talk about this, later. I don’t know when you can do this under the arcane dating rules. I think second or third date? Ask someone who does. But you *do* have to talk about this stuff no matter what. Even if what you want is the ‘social norm’, as if there’s only one for everyone, *You still have to talk about it*. I know there’s a place for disclosure in dating, I just don’t know what it is. I didn’t do the dating thing, and for us it didn’t come up for a couple months.

The social libertines reject me for my prudishness, the social conservatives reject me for my lack of faith.

Well there’s part of your problem, you think the entire world is split into one of those two groups. Spoiler: No.

valuing commitment, loyalty and chastity, and the ideal of marriage as “the two becoming one”. There are also some things I specifically dislike. I don’t want a submissive wife, and I feel that the quality of your parenting matters a whole heckofa more than the number of children.


After all that crowing about how you were a traditionalist… *Begins head desking*.

Okay. Dating Nerds may be an option for you, inasmuch as it is an option for a straight dude. There are not a lot of female nerds, thanks to the jackassery of your gender in the nerd community (Both as the nerds, and the people who create nerd culture). If you want to help with that, tell your peers to cool the fuck off when they are being misogynist, and learn from feminists what qualifies. There’s a wikia for this: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki. But it’s highly unlikely you’re going to take any responsibility whatsoever for this, so I will now skip to the stuff that you might actually do: Other subcultures also have women who don’t care about the dating rituals, fyi, but I do not maintain comprehensive tabs, let alone for the benefit of other people.

Learn to do your fucking household chores, and learn to do them well. If you are not looking for a strict traditionalist, this will actually make you more attractive. No woman wants to work or go to school for the day, then come home and take a second shift doing your crap as well as her own. If you can evenly split the work load, this will help substantially. Even if you’re not going to live together before marriage (An extraordinarily bad idea, sex or no; seriously, just be platonic roommates for a year. Nobody will believe you, but living together is a legit important step to making sure a marriage will work), it’ll still be made apparent in your clean living space and the fact that you can invite her over for good dinners that you make. I swear to you on all that is good, if you are not dating true traditionalists, this will help. Even if you’re not living together now, you will be eventually in the long term. She will notice that you are not going to foist all the work off on her.

On the flip side, I want to be with someone who is willing to be a stay-at-home mom if that is what we decide is best for our family.

It’s probably not, if you’re going to remain in America. Though, Tech is bubbling, so maybe it could be done.

Hengist
Hengist
9 years ago

Why exactly would I out myself, using my real name, to a hostile stranger on the internet?

Oh Hengist. Just because you’re kind of dim sometimes doesn’t mean that the rest of us are too.

If you’re a writer, you must already be a (semi)-public figure, right? So what would be the harm in linking to a couple of articles you wrote, which I’m sure don’t give any personal info about you anyway?

But that’s ok, I’ll just take your word that you’re a big fancy entertainment reporter. And I’m the Pope.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Also, Developers…the further outside the norm you are in terms of what you’re looking for in a partner, the harder it’s going to be for you to find someone. That’s not specific to you, it’s true in general. For example, I like skinny guys. I live in America, where most men are not skinny. I also require a partner whose politics lean to the left, and who is not very attached to traditional ideas about gender. I also absolutely require a partner who’s very physically affectionate (this one is not negotiable at all – I’m a cuddly person, and being with a non-cuddly partner would make me miserable). So right there I’ve eliminated, what, maybe 80% of American men? Probably more. I am looking for a very specific subset of guys, in terms of dating.

What you’re doing here is the equivalent of me turning up on a forum dedicated to, say, football, and asking the dudes who post there for advice on how to find the skinny affectionate metrosexual man of my dreams. How well do you think that would work out? What do you think are the chances that those men would be keen to assist me in my search, and how useful do you think the advice they would give me would be to me?

If you want something unusual you have to go look for it, and it helps to look in the right places.

Hengist
Hengist
9 years ago

Rutee: I know, right? If only all those pesky men would admit they’re wrong, that they are all potential rapists who participate in rape culture. If only they’d apologize for all the shit they didn’t even know they were doing and agree to listen to feminists from now on, things would be just dandy, right? Because feminists have the monopoly on morality and truth? Give me a break.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Dear Hengist – learn to Internet.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
9 years ago

What I’m objecting to is the fact that I can’t express my desires AND that I can no longer assume my desires are universal. This means, I can’t really be honest with any potential partner.

Why would you express your desire to marry two seconds after you ask a girl out on a date? Do you not see how that would be kind of pressuring? It is saying “I want you to decide to make a lifelong commitment RIGHT NOW.” Almost every woman will say “AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA” and then run as fast as they can. (I know of one who would not but she is batshit crazy and I would not wish her on anyone other then NWO since he would enjoy her dominating him.)

So instead, talk about common interests. Try going on several dates first before bringing up “I want to get married.” If she asks, sure, point out that you do like the idea of getting married. And that you want to wait until you get married. If she mocks you, maybe she is not the right kind of person for you. There are plenty of nonreligious folks who are not into sex right away or even until they get married.

As for the hobbies…who says you have to stay on campus? At some point you will have to venture outside anyway. If you let that restrict you, you are really basically using it as an excuse to avoid getting hurt.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Which btw doesn’t mean Google-stalk me. It means that there are lots of reasons why people do not choose to link their real names to their internet activity, especially if those people are women. You realize that every major feminist blogger gets rape threats via email, right? There’s also the issue of people wanting to use the Internet to talk about stuff that they might not want, say, their family to know about. I don’t think my grandma really needs to know about my interest in BSDM, you know what I mean?

If you want to be totally cavalier about online privacy yourself, be my guest. But I’m not that stupid.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

“Why would you express your desire to marry two seconds after you ask a girl out on a date?”

Also, how do you know that you have any interest in marrying that particular girl? Wouldn’t it be a good idea to get to know her a little first and figure out whether she’s at all compatible before diving into the more personal stuff?

The only exception that I can see to that would be online dating sites, where you can and probably should filter out people who don’t share your life goals before even engaging with them. I don’t really use those sites, but you can presumably tweak your settings to eliminate people who’re not at all interested in marriage, right?

Rutee Katreya
9 years ago

If only all those pesky men would admit they’re wrong,

It is, by no stretch of the imagination, only men who engage in rape culture. When that town berated the little girl as ‘obviously asking for it’ when she was gang raped, do you really think only the men were saying this? But men are the ones who commit most sexual assaults, and especially rapes. They are the ones who most need to be concerned about scaring women.

who participate in rape culture

Everyone here has, and probably does. Everyone. Feminists and our allies specifically try to do reduce it; we are not perfect in this regard, unfortunately, and some more subtly than others do enable and spread it.

If only they’d apologize for all the shit they didn’t even know they were doing

I don’t want or care about a motherfucking apology. Just fucking stop spreading it, to the best of your ability (Nobody is perfect). Maybe help actually stop it from others, too.

Give me a break.

What, you didn’t get enough from society, Able Whitey McStraighterson? No, that’s fine, you’re on your own as far as I’m concerned..

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

I’d settle for him restraining his urge to hurl random insults at women online, personally.

(Granted that this is selfish of me – apologies, women who have to deal with Hengist in real life.)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

Wow, Hengist, are you actively trying to be creepy or does it just come naturally to you?

And no, still not telling you my real name, and if you decide to dig for it…well, there’s not much I can do to stop you, but I will point out that you’re being kind of an asshole by disregarding my request for anonymity.