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bad boys beta males douchebaggery evil women men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny nice guys PUA thug-lovers violence against men/women

Lady Killers 2: Electric Boogaloo

Well, here’s a new twist on the whole “women love assholes” thing. According to the blogger known as Vox Day – a sort of right-wing/PUA hybrid – the best way for a fella to capture the attention of a comely lass is to rape and murder another comely lass. Yep. He seems to have confused “Game” — that is, pick-up artist trickery — with The Most Dangerous Game. Oh, Vox stops short of recommending that his readers actually go out and murder women, but he argues this women-love-killers argument in all seriousness:

I don’t believe I could recommend this as a strategy for most men, but it is surely educational to learn that raping and killing a woman is demonstrably more attractive to women than behaving like a gentleman. And women, before all the inevitable snowflaking commences, please note that there is absolutely nothing to argue about here. It is an established empirical fact.

His empirical “proof” of this assertion? The fact that some Japanese women have set up online fan clubs for Tatsuya Ichihashi, an accused murderer.

From this one data point, Vox seems to have made a somewhat hasty generalization based on the notion that all women are the same person – that is, if one woman thinks or does something, all women think or do that same thing.

Yes, there are  women — and men — who find themselves attracted to vile human beings. Some women idolize murderers. Some men think Ann Coulter is hot.  That doesn’t mean that all women idolize murderers or that all men want to get it on with Ms. Coulter. It just means that some people have really, really, really appalling taste.

But let’s just assume for a moment that Vox’s basic premise is true: all women love violent psycopaths,. If you’ want to get with the ladies, but aren’t so hard up for a date that you’re actually willing to resort to homicide, is there some other way you convey what a violent psychopath you are to the ladies of the world? Yep, says Vox:

[I]f you are being introduced to a woman you find attractive, she will be more attracted to you if you slap her in the face without warning and walk away without explanation than if you smile and tell her that you are very pleased to meet her. Now this, being a mere hypothesis, can be argued. And tested, if you’re feeling especially scientific this weekend.

I really hope none of his readers take him up on this.

Is Vox being altogether serious about this? Yes and no. About the idea that women love killers? Absolutely serious. About actually assaulting women? He’s a bit more cagey. On his blog Alpha Game, Vox elaborates:

Women find it sexier for you to rape and kill a woman than putting them on pedestals and being a nice guy. I’m not saying that you should rape and kill anyone, but I would recommend, at the very least, dropping the nice guy routine and pushing over the pedestals.

Women have plenty of positive attributes. But they’re not angels, and when it comes to what sexually attracts them, even the nice, well-bred ones are more insanely twisted, from the male perspective, than the average serial killer.

So apparently the only truly happy couples in the world are those in which both partners think like serial killers.

What a romantic!

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Pecunium
9 years ago

Baselsan: What if it said, “I’m in Mensa, and I’ll slap you around,”? I could get it in one of the old Germanic style faces, like Fraktur.

I’ll bet the women would be all over me then.

cynickal
cynickal
9 years ago

MENSA 4 LIFE! (on your belly of course)

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

Ooh, or tattoo “MENSA” on your knuckles and just start punching people! Sexxay.

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
9 years ago

Oh, now you have to link for us. I’ll go make popcorn.

Ever used Usenet? There’s a reason it’s mostly ghost town now and people use online forums nowadays.

Imagine a world that started off as one gigantic discussion room. You have threads but they’re not split into multiple subforums, they’re all in the same area (they’re also tree-like, with each reply having a parent post, instead of a single flat list like here). Then one day, as many many more people joined up, people started to get tired of slogging through, say, 10000 posts on Star Trek to get to their neurobiology discussions, or whatever, so they back-patched in a subject hierarchy (soc.menz, soc.politics.feminism, etc etc) and then even more than that because the people responsible for creating the hierarchies were too tied up in red tape they created an entire sub-tree called alt. (alt.atheism, alt.mens.rights, alt.manboobz, etc).

However, every post is still in the central repository and the sub-groups are patches, so the way they did that was by appending the group to the post, so your newsreader would filter out anything not from that group, instead of the posts being *actually* put in separate bins. And then they had the brilliant idea that people should be able to crosspost (so I could write a single post and post it into, say, alt.christianity, alt.religion, alt.satanism, alt.atheism all at once… because we know THAT’s going to end well) but most people tend to aggregate in a single group as a community AND a lot of people don’t know anything about crossposts, so that any cross-group flamewar ends up with 75% of people going “well why are you fuckers coming *in here* and posting your trollish shit instead of staying *over there*?”

More importantly, if some enterprising person wanting to eliminate the flamewars decides that he or she will post hir reply in only one group to minimize crossposting flamewars, this basically breaks the threading information so that the reply ends up being detected as an entirely new thread by the newsreader software (except if it’s a particularly good piece of newsreading software).

Now if I tell you that when I started posting on alt.atheism the crossposting flamewar with soc.mensa had already been ongoing for over 3 years… you can understand why I don’t really have an easy way to link you to it. 😉

Kollege Messerschmitt
9 years ago

Hm, I think the MEN in a MENSA-tattoo should be bolded..
Surely, the sight of it will make panties drop in no time!

Also, if Vox Day can extrapolate that all chicks dig serial killers from a few japanese women who made fanclubs for one, then I guess it’s safe to assume that all men are into women who either insult and punch them, or who threaten their life and their loved ones should they even dare to talk to another woman (even if it’s their mom).

I mean, some japanese dudes buy those CDs, so it’s pretty good evidence for what every guy wants, right?

Ladies? You know what to do!

BlackBloc
BlackBloc
9 years ago

In fact my first ever contact with MRAs was in, erm, 1997 or 1998 I believe, when some flamewar erupted between a profiteering ‘pro-men’ lawyer named K.P. (initials only, name withheld to protect the stupid) who claimed to be an activist protecting men by providing legal harrassment for their ex-wives and one of his MRA clients who was dissatisfied and claimed K.P. was actually running a conman shell-game on MRAs by pretending to be on their sides politically and using that only as a way to extract money out of them. Now it’s hard to know who was the worst dick in this affair because the client in question used anonymizers and crossposted his grievances all across the Usenet (but in general had *mostly* sworn off the MRA mindset because of the way he’d been treated, seeing it as a racket, but still being occasionally less than a stellar example of a feminist icon), while K.P. remained a vile MRA piece of swine and destroyed any good will people might have had towards his predicament by insulting every woman poster that got involved and taking a particular interest in insulting alt.atheism posters (somehow our group had been in the crosspost avalanche). Also, K.P. got a bee in his bonnet about any form of online anonymity, which made him quite unpopular with some of the alt.atheism people who had been involved in the alt.scientology flamewar (if you wonder why Anonymous has an issue with Scientology, it’s because Scientology has always been an enemy of the Internet, even way back then, and some people affiliated with the church basically did the equivalent of carpet bombing the entire Usenet just to stop posters who had been posting their holy texts on alt.scientology).

Molly Ren
9 years ago

“Ooh, or tattoo “MENSA” on your knuckles and just start punching people! Sexxay.”

I wouldn’t date them, but I’d buy the comic book.

Kollege Messerschmitt
9 years ago

Oh no, the dreaded ..-ellipsis!!!

And the darn link didn’t work, ugh.
Here it is! Because everyone knows that guys just want someone like Alex “bunny boiler” Forrest from Fatal Attraction.

katz
9 years ago

I will always associate Mensa with sea otters.

ozymandias42
9 years ago

I will always associate Mensa with people who mistakenly think that IQ is actually a thing that matters.

oldfeminist
9 years ago

[I]f you are being introduced to a woman you find attractive, she will be more attracted to you if you slap her in the face without warning and walk away without explanation than if you smile and tell her that you are very pleased to meet her.

I can see how they might come to this conclusion through faulty extrapolation.

They may notice that, when they act all fawning and pedestalish to a woman, she’s not really impressed. Mostly that will be because these guys are not very good at faking admiration and love, which are kind of necessary to actually fawn and enpedestal someone sincerely. A woman who’s never met you will immediately be suspicious if you treat them like a goddess.

They look around and see other guys not being so fawning and having better success, because they are sincerely interested rather than pretending awe when what they truly feel for the woman is a mix of disgust and hatred and resentment.

They look around again and see a woman who’s mad in love with a guy who doesn’t want anything to do with her. She’s following him and takes his rebuffs in stride because she thinks she might have a chance if she keeps trying, or she’s oblivious, or an asshole who refuses to take a clue.

They extrapolate these three points into a curve where greater interest from a man equals lesser interest from a woman, assuming all men are alike (and like him) and all women are alike (so it’s only the man’s approach that directs the result).

There won’t be any data points where the man doesn’t care and the woman doesn’t care, because there’s nothing to see.

There are visible data points where the man and woman both care a lot, but he probably looks at those guys as manginas.

cynickal
cynickal
9 years ago

I will always associate Mensa with people who mistakenly think that IQ is actually a thing that matters.

Hy know! Eeveryboody knowz dat vomen goez fur de goyz mit de nize hat!

Comet
Comet
9 years ago

Is this the same Vox Day who wrote a book about how atheism is a symptom of autism or something?

“Women find it sexier for you to rape and kill a woman than putting them on pedestals and being a nice guy.”

What gives me lulz about the PUA mindset is that not only is there only one woman in the world, there are only two men: whiny castrated doormats or violent caveman thugs. Ug. Neither of whom have any motivations or aspirations other than acquiring pussy.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

Hy know! Eeveryboody knowz dat vomen goez fur de goyz mit de nize hat!

Mensa guys can’t wear hats. Their brains are toooo big. True fax.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

“Ooh, or tattoo “MENSA” on your knuckles and just start punching people! Sexxay.”

I know I said this would get you girls, but also try this on potential employers, too. I’m sure they’ll be super impressed. (My dad told me about a job applicant that had his Mensa membership and IQ listed on his CV. Oh my. XD)

Comet
Comet
9 years ago

@Bagelsan:

“(My dad told me about a job applicant that had his Mensa membership and IQ listed on his CV. Oh my. XD)”

Wow, what job was it for?

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

I wouldn’t date them, but I’d buy the comic book.

Ever since the night his parents were brutally disappointed by a parent-teacher conference, he vowed to get revenge on all those who said “eh, he’s not as smart as he thinks he is.” Late each evening he dons his gloves with metal lettering across the knuckles, and roams his suburb looking for people to punch woo. Striking like a totally pimp Alpha he then flees into the night, leaving dazed targets with only the imprint of “ASNEM” across their foreheads and the lingering smell of Axe body spray in the air.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

@Comet: some sort of software programming job. So I guess I can’t be too surprised… :p

cynickal
cynickal
9 years ago

@Bagelsan; Where would you like your internets delivered?

Kollege Messerschmitt
9 years ago

Bagelsan, I would read the shit out of that ♥
I think it should be drawn by Liefeld or Land, for that extra skeezy feeling!

johnnykaje
9 years ago

Female murders get male admirers too. At least, that’s what happened with Casey Anthony, who got money and love letters from strange men while she was in jail.

Antonov An-225
Antonov An-225
9 years ago

Female murders get male admirers too. At least, that’s what happened with Casey Anthony, who got money and love letters from strange men while she was in jail.

To an MRA, this is not proof that men and women are surprisingly similar, but that Casey Anthony is extorting money from innocent men with her evil vagina.

Shaenon
9 years ago

What gives me lulz about the PUA mindset is that not only is there only one woman in the world, there are only two men: whiny castrated doormats or violent caveman thugs. Ug. Neither of whom have any motivations or aspirations other than acquiring pussy.

This is the plot of the great 1970s movie Carnal Knowledge, written by cartoonist Jules Feiffer and starring Jack Nicholson and Art Garfunkel (gee, guess which one plays the doormat and which one plays the thug). I think of it a lot when I read these threads because it’s such a spot-on depiction of this mindset. Part of the point of the movie is that, although the Nicholson character is worse (and turns into a full-on MRA type at the end), both of them treat women pretty badly and never see them as more than extensions of their own egos.

“I have a high IQ!” is the Internet discussion equivalent of “My mom says I’m handsome!”

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
9 years ago

Shaenon, I think Scott Adams is the master of the “I have a high IQ!” argument. Vox Day should take lessons from him.

katz
9 years ago

If we see someone with a totally different screen name pop up and say that we’re all wrong because Vox has a high IQ, we will know that he has learned well.

Hengist
Hengist
9 years ago

They extrapolate these three points into a curve where greater interest from a man equals lesser interest from a woman, assuming all men are alike (and like him) and all women are alike (so it’s only the man’s approach that directs the result).

I actually agree with this, many PUA-types are unfortunately thinking in a binary system where the guy is either a thug (who gets the ladies) or a wuss. Part of the problem is that a lot of girls, especially in the younger generation, really are more attracted to the dangerous ‘bad boys’, ‘thugs’ and ‘street’ guys, especially the ones with a ‘cocky jerk’ vibe.

What gets me is that while feminists constantly mock and criticize PUAs, they can’t really offer any meaningful dating advice themselves. It’s all stuff like “well, you gotta be yourself, and um… be a good person, be confident etc” combined with snide patronizing remarks like “well, y’know, ya gotta treat women like human beings!” Unfortunately, this is no help to the guy who’s “been himself” for 20-something years and is still alone. So when he has a choice between PUAs who claim to have the answer (even if it’s something wacky like “women dig serial killers”) or feminists who’ll make fun of him and tell him it’s all his fault for being a loser, guess who he’ll listen to.

cynickal
cynickal
9 years ago

What gets me is that while feminists constantly mock and criticize PUAs, they can’t really offer any meaningful dating advice themselves.

Except here, here, and here. But that was just a 30 second Google search using well known sites.

Really people, dating is an activity. You have to participate in it, not sit in your basement wondering why super models aren’t busting down your door.

ozymandias42
9 years ago

A lot of dating is either “what not to do,” extremely personal stuff or just plain luck. Which means that feminist dating advice would boil down to:

–Ask people out. Don’t do creepy or pedestalizing or objectifying stuff like X, Y or Z.
–It works for me to cuddle/tease people/talk about Magic/act like an asshole and fucked if I know how I get laid/compliment people/stand around looking pretty until someone hits on me/go on Craigslist, maybe it’ll work for you.
–Be more lucky.

Hengist
Hengist
9 years ago

cynickal, did you read those articles? One is the perspective of a male feminist, the others are tales of feminist women in the dating world. There’s no advice for guys there at all.

Really people, dating is an activity. You have to participate in it, not sit in your basement wondering why super models aren’t busting down your door.

Yes, that’s the snide condescension I was talking about. Thanks for illustrating.

Hershele Ostropoler
9 years ago

I don’t disagree with people who note that “be more lucky” is useless advice. I’m going to guess you don’t either. The thing is, no advice really works; conversely, if someone likes you at least slightly, any approach that isn’t actively off-putting will be effective.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
9 years ago

Hengist, there are plenty of feminist who do not make fun of men that are alone and want dating advice. That is a situation plenty of both men and women deal with in life. It’s not something to ridicule at all. One of the many problems of PUA advice is that it is one size fits all. Sure, some women may respond well to negging, kino, and whatever else PUA’s do. Plenty of women don’t like any of that, though.

I don’t think someone should put on act to try to win someone else. If two people are compatible, there is no need for gimmicks and games. The hard thing is finding someone that thinks you’re great just the way you are. I’m going to agree with Ozy that a good deal of luck comes into play for a person to find a compatible person.

Now here is a list of my own personal opinion on how someone can have better luck with love. This is purely my opinion.

1. Be genuinely nice to people. Don’t treat kindess like Nice Guys that want rewards given to them when they do something nice for someone else. Be nice just for the sake of being nice. Stay away from people that want to take advantage of your kindness.

2. Get involved in groups and activities that you like. Then you can find people that have common interests.

3. Put a basic effort into your appearance. You don’t have to be obsessed with your looks, but just keep up good hygiene.

4. Take the initiative and flirt with people you like but don’t come on too strong. Don’t use pick up lines. Just start up a conversation and hope things go well.

5. Have a good sense of humor, especially a self deprecating one. Many people are more attractive if they can laugh at themselves.

Hershele Ostropoler
9 years ago

mags:

I’d date a murderer. I’d also date a convicted rapist.

Well, yes, since half of all rape accusations are false and false accusations have a 100% conviction rate, a convicted rapist is probably safer than average</mra>

BlackBloc:

Ever used Usenet? There’s a reason it’s mostly ghost town now and people use online forums nowadays.

By the time I showed up in ’97 it wasn’t that awful. I’ve seen forums harder to follow than Usenet — all of them, in fact, save Manboobz and TV Tropes (and I no longer visit the TV Tropes forums for other reasons).

nugganu
9 years ago

Actually Anders Breivik, the Norwegian mass murderer is getting tonnes of love letters in jail, and what about the women who fell in love with Richard Ramirez, he actually married one of his groupies. Says it all about what modern women like.

Rutee Katreya
9 years ago

So did Casey Anthony. Some people are fucked up, this is true! It’s not a condition unique to women! Famous people, even fucked up ones, get a lot of positive attention. The thing is, not even most women do this. I don’t even think you can say a plurality do.

I mean, shit, can you idiots get your stories about what the female hive mind wants, for once? You seem to bounce between “Thugs”, Harvard-educated rich guys, and hot actors in uneven measure and with varying frequency!

cynickal
cynickal
9 years ago

cynickal, did you read those articles? One is the perspective of a male feminist, the others are tales of feminist women in the dating world. There’s no advice for guys there at all.

Well, I guess that if someone doesn’t take you by the hand and tell you each specific step in a Choose-Your-Own-Dating-Adventure style, Paint-by-Numbers guide on how to interact with people you’re just not capable of watching, observing and learning.

But then again, we knew that from the posts you’ve been leaving behind like a trail of liquid feces.
I’d apologize for being “snide” but the logical and verbal wreckage you leave here, when not internet stalking people or trying to pick fist-fights doesn’t exactly leave me feeling generous.

mythago
9 years ago

@Blackbloc: Oh hell yes I used Usenet. Why do you *think* I asked for a direct link? I’d rather eat glass than go searching around in that swamp.

WRT “waaa they like serial killers”: it’s just the usual excuse of guys who aren’t getting the female attention they think they deserve (whether that’s ‘any at all’ or ‘Zoe Saldana won’t return my tweets’). It’s because them bitches are crazy and wouldn’t go for a nice guy, like me.

Magpie
Magpie
9 years ago

Do these guys really WANT to go out with the sort of person who admires serial killers? Or do they not think it through that far?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

I don’t think who they themselves want to go out with is the point, really, they’re just trying to find ways to prove that women love “jerks” again. Because if women do not in fact love jerks then their entire worldview collapses like a house of cards.

Magpie
Magpie
9 years ago

There are some things I’ll never get my head around. But with this bloke, I’m glad of it. 😉

Hengist
Hengist
9 years ago

Well, I guess that if someone doesn’t take you by the hand and tell you each specific step in a Choose-Your-Own-Dating-Adventure style, Paint-by-Numbers guide on how to interact with people you’re just not capable of watching, observing and learning.

Translation: “I’m too stupid/lazy to answer the question but I really wanted to take a shot at you, so I’ll just give a non-relevant answer and then act like it’s your fault for not ‘getting it'”.

Thanks for playing, Mr. Armstrong.

Pecunium
9 years ago

The projection is strong in this one: Translation: “I’m too stupid/lazy to answer the question but I really wanted to take a shot at you, so I’ll just give a non-relevant answer and then act like it’s your fault for not ‘getting it’”.

The first one, has specific advice, and links to more. I guess what Hengist meant when he said, “feminist” was, “woman”, because that’s the only reason he’s dismissing the first one (unless his reading comprehension is so low that, “here is my list of advice” no advice at all. This is a proposition which might bear further investigation).

This could also explain why the advice in the third (which boils down to treat her as a person who is interesting in her own right, not merely as a reflection of the glory which is you. Let her speak, don’t get defensive when her opinions challenge yours; which can be hard. It’s not good, however, when you react by saying her opinions are without any merit and just stupid, etc.) seems to be irrelevant because it’s just accounts of a female feminists dating problems.

Yep, nothing useful to takeaway from a first person account of what guys are doing wrong (and the concomitant warning, implicit in a specific complaint that one should avoid it), and the explanation of what would be good instead.

Instead, he gives a non-answer and acts like it’s cynickal’s fault for not finding him a spoon-feeding.

Trollish types, take heed, this is how it’s done.

oldfeminist
9 years ago

Hengist:

cynickal, did you read those articles? One is the perspective of a male feminist, the others are tales of feminist women in the dating world. There’s no advice for guys there at all.

You think a woman talking about what she likes and doesn’t like in dating is of no consequence for the men who want to date them?

Why is the perspective of a male feminist not relevant to any guys at all?

red_locker
9 years ago

“Why is the perspective of a male feminist not relevant to any guys at all?”

Remember when Ion was on here and he linked to an article of a “self-proclaimed Male femenist” harassing a woman, joining in with EWME’s “mocking”?

To these guys, any sign of decency to a woman is, “Trying to get the pussy.” If you think there are things like “friendship” or “just some guy I talk to in class when I need help with classwork/homework”…you’re wrong, and that’s that.

Hengist
Hengist
9 years ago

Pecunium, you’ve really got a hard-on for me lately, haven’t you? No, I’m actually not interested in either a male feminist’s musings, or the experiences of a feminist womyn in the dating world. I’d rather stay celibate forever than try to date a feminist (and yes, I know the standard reply: “You’re afraid/can’t handle strong women!” – and honestly I don’t care, I’m not about to spend my life with a sarcastic humorless know-it-all harpy with a nasty attitude and a chip on her shoulder, just to prove something). So yeah, I was talking about regular advice for normal people.

Which, now that I think about it, is rather silly to ask on a blog full of snarky feminists and their fawning male lackeys, so I retract the question. :p

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

So let me get this straight, Hengist. You thought that it would be reasonable not just to ask for a dating guide that addressed your particular issues, but to ask for it from people who in your opinion such a guide would not be relevant to, and you did it in a whiny way that implied that they were horrible people for not having provided such a guide already?

This is a good illustration of why the first principle of feminism is “I am not your mommy”.

Hengist
Hengist
9 years ago

Cassandra: Not “my particular issues”, but rather the issues of normal, mainstream people. And yes, you’re right, which is why I withdrew the question. I don’t know about “whiny”, though, that’s probably projection on your part.

This is a good illustration of why the first principle of feminism is “I am not your mommy”.

Don’t worry, I don’t think anyone would ever confuse you for the motherly kind.

cynickal
cynickal
9 years ago

Translation: “I’m too stupid/lazy to answer the question but I really wanted to take a shot at you, so I’ll just give a non-relevant answer and then act like it’s your fault for not ‘getting it’”.

Thanks for playing, Mr. Armstrong.

Heh. Heh. Heh.
What happened to “Uncle Adam”?
They’re so cute when thier dumber than pudding.

So when again were you coming to Seattle?
Hey, since I’m too lazy for your taste, where do you live?
You already have my phone number and email.
Drop it on the backside to me and I’ll meet you.
Honestly, boy, you’re treading on my last nerve.

Hengist
Hengist
9 years ago

How do you know we haven’t met already? 😀

Bostonian
Bostonian
9 years ago

Because you are too much of a wuss to actually talk to cynical?