MRAs often complain bitterly that men have to register for the draft and women don’t. Ironically, many MRAs – sometimes the very same people – also think that women shouldn’t be allowed in the armed forces at all, or at the very least should be barred from direct combat.
One MRA who’s staunchly against women in combat is a Redditor calling himself Demonspawn. In a recent comment he sets forth “four huge reasons” why. The first is a doozy:
The vagina. You can’t keep it clean in battlefield conditions. Military regulations state that women on extended training exercises must have access to garrison or equivalent facilities for hygiene at least once every X number of days (usually 7). Why? Because otherwise you run a very high risk of a vaginal infection and can die from it. Those facilities cannot be guaranteed on the battlefield and therefore it is an even greater risk to women’s lives to use them as battlefield troops.
I’m surprised he forgot to mention the chronic problem of centipedes in the vagina.
The rest of his reasons are equally stupid, if not quite as amusing. Number two:
Public Relations. … Have you not read the articles when women soldiers die and it’s a big deal, while more dead male soldiers is just business as usual? Public support for war cannot be sustained in the face of massive female soldier casualties.
And three:
Men get themselves killed overprotecting women. This is the #1 reason Israel deintegrated their troops.
Yeah, it’s a terrible thing when soldiers try to protect one another.
His final reason returns us once again to the whole vagina thing:
Women tend to “get pregnant” when leaving for overseas trips… That destroys unit cohesion. Research the “pregnant navy” syndrome. One ship had over 40% of it’s female sailors suddenly become pregnant before an overseas trip.
I did a Google search for “pregnant navy.” In 2007, according to one article I found, roughly 11 percent of female soldiers had to be shifted to shore because they were pregnant; it’s usually less than that.
Women: trouble when their vaginas are infected, trouble when they’re clean. Why do we even let them leave the house?
Thanks to MuForceShoelace for posting the link to Demonspawn’s comment on the AgainstMensRights subreddit.
EDIT: I misread an article I originally cited about female crew members on a supply ship getting pregnant during the Gulf war. The percentage who got pregnant was 10%, not more than half. (In my defense, the article was badly worded.) I’ve removed the erroneous material.
No army experience here, but I do remember reading a while ago that some military folks were concerned women dying in combat would cause a serious morale hit to the male soldiers, who would often go to extreme risks to protect and/or rescue them. Further damaging to morale would be the idea of women being captured by the enemy, raped etc. Could be an issue.
No comment on the hygiene thing, but accommodating field camps to include hygiene facilities/showers/quarters etc for women might also be a cost issue? I remember a movie where this girl joined the army and they didn’t have women’s barracks so she got a whole dorm to herself while the men had to crowd in the remaining ones.
And yet they still allow people with feet to serve in combat positions? Has the world gone mad?
@KathleenB: The idea that you would get to make hospital visits for basic aliments is laughable. Soldiers get to go to the hospital from the battlefield when they get incapacitated from trench foot (gangrene or amputation). The commanding officers and NCO’s do their best to prevent that by having them clean and dry their feet, socks and boots. You aren’t going to go to the hospital for a few blisters or swelling.
@Hengist: Yes those are other issues as well. I knew quite a few male soldiers that would take on unnecessary risks to protect women. I think this can be drilled out out them so they don’t place themselves in anymore danger than they would a male soldier.
Field camps? Soldiers in major wars spend weeks not visiting bases and camps. Most would only be temporary or makeshift camps to resupply soldiers. Are you suggesting that women get special treatment and have portable showers flown into those bases for women’s use?
Field camps? Soldiers in major wars spend weeks not visiting bases and camps. Most would only be temporary or makeshift camps to resupply soldiers. Are you suggesting that women get special treatment and have portable showers flown into those bases for women’s use?
I dunno, they probably have separate facilities though, don’t they? Otherwise you’d be opening the door to all kinds of sexual harassment scandals.
Yanno, Hengist, I watched a movie about the military too. It said that one of the goals of military training is to force all the trainees to bond so that they protect each other in war. Why is that good when men do it, but bad as soon as ladies are involved?
Hospital visits? Aren’t there medics with (or at least near) most combat units? And wouldn’t they have such modern medicines as to treat infections? Okay, actually in the field, it might be different, but even soldiers in the trenches got sent back to doctors when they had problems.
@KathleenB: Yes there are medics who are usually there to save lives when soldiers get shot. I don’t think they carry feminine hygiene products.
Also, basic health issues don’t really get treated if the soldier can continue to fight. It isn’t until the soldier can’t keep up with the unit or suffers a major health issue (getting shot) where they are removed from the field.
Why? Whatever infection women might get from lack of proper hygiene is really not that different from the various kinds of crotchrot men get for the same reason. These kind of infections are not going to kill you, even if Demonspawn seems to believe otherwise. No one is talking about “special treatment” here except for you. Oh, and Brandon.
Oh, you’d be surprised. Although seriously, for bacterial vaginosis, you’d want to treat with antibiotic, not some specialty vagina product. And no one’s explained why it’s cool that people with feet can go into warfare, with all their foot-specific vulnerabilities, but people with vaginas might get vagina-sick, so they better just stay home. It’s a weird argument, to say the least.
@Snowy: And those men use foot powder to keep their crotches dry. They don’t get portable showers flown in for them. So if you want showers flown in as opposed to using a basic remedy…I see that as special treatment.
Again, who is talking about flying in portable showers except you and Hengist?
Okay, and back in the real world, people that voluntarily enlist get that they are taking a risk of death and infections while in combat. Pretty sure women that sign up can understand that as easily as the men do.
@Bee: Yes, medics have carried tampons to prevent blood loss in wounds.
I bet in part some of it is because they don’t want to see women get hurt on the battlefield so they exaggerate “vagina-sick” problems.
If women went into the battlefield with their own powders, antibiotics and wipes then I wouldn’t care. But I think it makes someone look entitled to think that the military should just fly showers into a war zone so women can care for their crotches. The idea that one would get a luxury like a shower on a battlefield is laughable. Men find alternative ways to care for themselves will at war…women should as well.
@Snowy: You quoted my words that were directed at Hengist. Hence that is why we are talking about portable showers.
@xtra: Exactly
It always amazes me that this is still even an issue, although the idea of women dying of fatal yeast infections if they can’t take a shower every day is cracking me up.* Women in my family have served in the military starting with my grandma, who joined the WACs to prove to my grandpa that she could take care of herself (he thought he could never get married because he was already financially supporting his younger siblings). She liked it so much that she stayed in the Army after WWII ended. Army life was luxury compared to the home she’d grown up in; among other things, it was the first time she’d had a bed to herself.
Most recently, my cousin served in the Air Force and went on to work as a lawyer for the Pentagon, specializing in space law. Space law. She’s petite, but by the end of basic training she could lug a pack through 90-degree heat, do one-handed pushups, the whole nine yards.
How can people sit around saying women can’t serve in the military when there are real live women doing it right now, and they’ve been doing so for 70 effing years?
*Well, cracking me up and then making me cry a little at the ignorance of basic biology. Seriously, guys, this is like saying that men shouldn’t serve in the military because they could miss a shower and die of jock itch. Also, yeast infections are usually caused by a chemical imbalance, not lack of hygiene, and are treated with medication or a change in diet, not extra showers. The more you know…
I refer you to Snowy’s question above. It’s not like Hengist is a woman or a feminist, (and frankly, his initial comment seemed to be a hypothetical based on a fictional movie he saw once) so … who is it who’s asking for special treatment for women on the battlefield exactly?
Where did everyone get the idea that vaginas require special secret care? You pretty much just walk around with one. It’s nice (but not a matter of life and death) to be able to contain and clean up your periods, but beyond that, they require about as much maintenance as, say, your feet.
There’s not some dark and mystical hygiene ritual women have to perform to prevent Unspeakable Horrors. It’s a body part. If it gets dirty, oh no, now it’s a dirty body part.
No I didn’t, I quoted your words that were directed at me. Here they are again, in case you don’t remember that far back.
Or did you get our names mixed up?
@shaenon
The existence of space law as a legitimate field of study has just made my day.
There was not widespread indoor plumbing in my home area until the 1960s. How all of those ladies who worked on farms did not die from having vaginas will be an eternal mystery.
Here we though my grandfather’s sister likely died of leukemia (she never had a diagnosis, as they could not afford to see a specialist, she suffered a lot and died very young, but the responses to my great grandmother’s heartbroken letters over the years suggested that this was the most likely cause), but maybe it was just her vagina. How the other sister worked the fields from sunup to sundown and did not implode from her vag is a mystery. After all, they certainly did not have running water.
You do realize that these “battlefields” are places where women can and do already live, right? Or are burkas just there to hide the fact that all Afganis are men?
If a job has a certain strength and endurance requirement (btw, women on average fare better at the latter), then a gender neutral screening accomplishes those requirements better than a crotch check.
As someone who has seen their mother wake up before dawn to stake out the goats (this involves taking a large metal stake and hammering it into the ground with a sledgehammer), before going out to pick a field of corn by hand with a baby strapped to her back, these flimsy excuses about women and physical activity are especially laugable. Women in poor rural communties have been doing this shit for centuries, at least.
It is also the case that many of the high status jobs women are barred from are not high upper body strength requirements, such as airforce pilots.
Additional note, the US military does lie and put people into unwanted positions. It also is not completely true that no one is “forced” to be in the military. At lower ranks recruiting levels, there is a lot of exploitation of the poor and uneducated. What would you do if your child had cancer and you did not have health insurance? I know a man who had that reason for joining the military. The US’s policy in regards to recruiting minors has been criticized by international organizations as violating human rights.
The ear. You can’t keep it clean in battlefield conditions. Military regulations state that women on extended training exercises must have access to garrison or equivalent facilities for hygiene at least once every X number of days (usually 7). Why? Because otherwise you run a very high risk of a ear infection and can die from it. Those facilities cannot be guaranteed on the battlefield and therefore it is an even greater risk to women’s lives to use them as battlefield troops.
Also about sand/mud up the vagina: Wouldn’t pants and underwear prevent that?
Has somebody already observed that by the “icky genitals” standard, the military should require all male soldiers be circumcised? We wouldn’t want any of our fighting men to get sand in their foreskins or anything.
Re qualifications, the military also scales by age, yet you don’t hear the misogs whining that strapping young 18-year-olds are gonna die because some fat middle-aged dude was in a foxhole and couldn’t pull his own weight.
No katz, because the women soldiers all wear cocktail dresses. Just another example of the special treatment they demand!