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creepy false accusations links misogyny MRA rape reddit

Links: False rape accusations, misogynist Men’s Rightsers, and internet pervs

Some interesting links, the first two from Man Boobz regulars:

Holly Pervocracy on Ten Shades of False Rape Accusations

 [S]ometimes it’s easier for a survivor to live with the knowledge that their rapist is free than it is for them to go through years of being under constant suspicion of being an evil false accuser.  It ends with misogyny justifying and reinforcing itself, as the concept “women lie about rape” becomes both proof of and proven by “women are untrustworthy, manipulative, and malicious.”  It ends with rapists who tell their victims “no one will ever believe you” being right, with society standing behind them.

Every time we reinforce the common wisdom that “women lie about rape all the time,” rape gets a little easier to commit.

Ozymandias on No, Seriously, What About Teh Menz: Take My Social Movement– Please!

All too often, the mainstream men’s rights movement is not gender egalitarian at all. All too often, those of us who support equal rights for everyone– no matter what our differences in opinion– have found our voices drowned out by misogynistic, rape-apologist and frankly stupid asshats. That has to change.

Gawker’s Adrian Chen on How a 14-Year-Old Girl Became an Unwilling Internet Pin-Up

Reddit is home to a whole network of proud pervs, and through Jailbait I came across another board dedicated to creeping on someone named Angie Verona. … Three years ago, when she was 14, Angie took some photos for her boyfriend and stored them in a private Photobucket account. The account was hacked and the photos leaked. Pictures of 14-year-old Angie posing provocatively in a bikini and lingerie were thrown all over the internet, showing up on message boards like Reddit and 4chan, and posted on porn sites. …

[E]very teen with a Facebook account has pictures like Angie’s. What’s fucked up is this trafficking of pictures of random underage girls that falls just this side of child porn, with no regard for the real life that might be ruined in the process.

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qwert666
qwert666
9 years ago

@ cynickal

“which statically aren’t any more frequent than false murder reports or false theft reports.”

Without wanting to sound like an idiot and, admittedly, this might end up being the case as I’m speaking from a position of ignorance here, this doesn’t seem to sound right to me. To falsely report a murder one would need a dead body or missing person. To falsely report a rape you only need an accusation. I find it very hard to believe that there are as many false murder reports as there are false rape reports, this sounds ludicrous to me.

Yaz
Yaz
9 years ago

‘To falsely report a murder one would need a dead body or missing person. ‘

And accuse the wrong person of committing the crime. That’s all it takes.

qwert666
qwert666
9 years ago

@ Yaz

Who would accuse me of murder, the person that I’d murdered? Surely not. Besides the point I was making was that if no dead body or missing person exists then there can be no accusation. This is not a condition of a false rape accusation, there only needs to be a person to make an accusation. If cynical meant that as many innocent people are convicted of murder as are rape, then that sounds a lot more likely, but I assumed he was talking about false accusations.

Yaz
Yaz
9 years ago

‘Who would accuse me of murder, the person that I’d murdered? ‘ qwert666

Off the top of my head, someone who’s seeking revenge on you. Or the person who actually did the murdering. Or a mistaken identity. Or someone who figured the only member of undesirable [race/class x/sexuality/religion] in the area must have been the killer. It doesn’t take a lot of imagination, and it’s the stuff of plenty of TV dramas and novels.

mythago
9 years ago

“But I understand that, depending on who my accuser was, some of them might not”. How this would make me feel I have no idea, probably pretty fucking horrible, but I understand that it is possible that they might not believe me: there’s nothing I could do about it.

Which is to say, you don’t believe that there is any significant chance you will ever be a rape victim; therefore it’s not something to which you’ve given much thought, or expect to give much thought.

Understanding that such a thing is possible is not really answering the question as to how you would react, to learn that a close friend thinks you’re a malicious liar trying to ruin the life of an innocent person, or that a member of your family thinks you’re delusional for saying that someone raped you.

What Holly’s post was really talking about, as even a cursory reading shows, is not that rape accusations should automagically be taken as true by the courts. She’s talking about believing people on a personal level, rather than finding excuses to blame them or assume that they’re liars because it’s just too uncomfortable and unpleasant to think that Bob, here, might not be a super-swell kind of guy.

qwert666
qwert666
9 years ago

@ Yaz

Apologies, I was being a bit frivolous with that last comment, it is, of course, possible that I could be falsely accused of murder. I don’t think, however, that you understand my point.

If I’ve had sex with 100 different women, then there are, at least, 100 different women who could falsely claim that I had raped them. For me to have the same chance of being falsely accused of murder, there would have to be 100 different dead bodies or missing persons that I could be linked to by DNA or other evidence.

The idea that as many people are falsely accused of murder as are rape seems utterly ludicrous to me based on this logic.

Yaz
Yaz
9 years ago

Murder is not really the best example. I’ll give you that. But the point is that the numbers of false accusations for rape are in line with other crimes. Take theft, then, if you prefer. Or assault. Every person you meet on the street (far more than 100) has the possibility of accusing you of stealing their wallet. Everyone who has a bruise or abrasion could feasibly accuse you of attacking them. Is this something you really worry about? Likely not. And that’s kind of the point. Why is rape such a special situation, then?

Yaz
Yaz
9 years ago

Every study I’ve ever followed links to had the numbers being close. And of course I can’t find any of those links now. So I’ve lost a whole slew of credibility and will bow out to search out some links before I dig this holw any deeper. >.<

qwert666
qwert666
9 years ago

@ mythago

“Which is to say, you don’t believe that there is any significant chance you will ever be a rape victim; therefore it’s not something to which you’ve given much thought, or expect to give much thought.”

I really fucking hope that I never become a rape victim, but no, it’s not something that I dwell on. I’d think it rather patronising and disrespectful to / unfeeling toward actual rape victims to pretend to, or imagine to know what it would be like to be raped or to not be believed by my friends and family.

And I understand full-well that Holly wasn’t talking about the courts and that she was talking about believing people on a personal level. But she was, to my understanding, saying that we should believe the accusers and not believe the accused, on a basis of probability as to who is lying. I’m sorry, but it is a fact that false accusations are made, as it is a fact that rape happens. When Holly talks about “a world where a hundred false accusers are told* “I believe you, I care about you, and I’ll stand up for you,” she is ignoring the fact that there are a hundred innocent people who are being accused of a most heinous crime without evidence, purely based on a statistical probability. I think that this is wrong.

cynickal
cynickal
9 years ago

Without wanting to sound like an idiot and, admittedly, this might end up being the case as I’m speaking from a position of ignorance here, this doesn’t seem to sound right to me. To falsely report a murder one would need a dead body or missing person.

Troy Davis.
Cameron Todd Willingham.
Others.

If I’ve had sex with 100 different women, then there are, at least, 100 different women who could falsely claim that I had raped them.

Sophism.
If I meet a million people in my life, that’s a million people who could falsely claim I’ve assaulted them.
Stop being an apologist.

qwert666
qwert666
9 years ago

@ cynickal

Ok, are you going to present some statistics or studies to back up your claim, or do you think that “Troy Davis. Cameron Todd Willingham. Others.” proves that false rape reports “statically aren’t any more frequent than false murder reports or false theft reports.” because I don’t!

“If I meet a million people in my life, that’s a million people who could falsely claim I’ve assaulted them.” Correct. And to have the same chance of being falsely accused of murder there would need to be a million dead bodies or missing persons to whom I could be linked.

And I’m not sure how I can be considered an apologist when the entire discussion has been expressly focused of FALSE rape accusations

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Again, why is being accused of rape worse than being accused of murder?

qwert666
qwert666
9 years ago

@ Yaz

“Every study I’ve ever followed links to had the numbers being close. And of course I can’t find any of those links now. So I’ve lost a whole slew of credibility and will bow out to search out some links before I dig this holw any deeper. >.<"

I don't think I've got much credibility going here either. I'm going to have to bow out of this one myself as I think I've said all that I wanted to say anyway, 'til next time.

Yaz
Yaz
9 years ago

It’s not.

Rutee Katreya
9 years ago

People die, dude. There’s not stacks of bodies lying around, but if you hate someone that much…

IT’s much easier to engineer a false accusation of battery or, god forbid, drug charges, than rape though. Pretending Rape is the thing you most need to worry about? It’s not very smart.

.

And I’m not sure how I can be considered an apologist when the entire discussion has been expressly focused of FALSE rape accusations

Because you’re reinforcing the narrative that we most need to fear false rape accusations over false accusations of other crimes? How stupid are you again?

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

@yaz, I know that, and you know that, but I’d like to hear it from our MRAs.

qwert666
qwert666
9 years ago

@ Rutee

I was merely pointing out how I think that ““False Rape Reports”, which statically aren’t any more frequent than false murder reports or false theft reports.” is an incorrect statement. I’m not worried about being accused of raping someone, I’m saying that it is more likely that I will be accused of raping someone than I’ll be accused of murdering someone. I don’t see how this is an absurd thing to think.

Again it is not apologising for rape to say that, sometimes, people make false rape accusations. Pray tell what exactly is stupid about that?

Yaz
Yaz
9 years ago

‘I’m saying that it is more likely that I will be accused of raping someone than I’ll be accused of murdering someone.’ qwerty666

Are you factoring in the fact that rape is an extremely underreported crime? It’s not 8% of women who falsely accuse. (If that’s the number we’re going with) It’s 8% of reports that turn out to be false. I get the impression that the MRAs seem to confuse this fact.

mythago
9 years ago

I don’t think I’ve got much credibility going here either

Well, let’s see. qwerty666 believes that trying to consider the point of view of a rape victim is “patronising and disrespectful” and that the testimony of a rape victim is not evidence. I’d put that in the zero credibility camp myself.

Magpie
9 years ago

Quick question: If police gather evidence for a rape charge, but the DPP decides not to take the case to court(yet, because they don’t feel sure of a conviction), is that counted as a false rape report? Would normal statistics and MRA statistics classify it differently?

qwert666
qwert666
9 years ago

@ Yaz

I don’t have the figures at hand to be able to discuss this in such detail. In addition, I really need to get some sleep before work tomorrow. Thank you for the interesting discussion.

qwert666
qwert666
9 years ago

@ mythago

“Well, let’s see. qwerty666 believes that trying to consider the point of view of a rape victim is “patronising and disrespectful” and that the testimony of a rape victim is not evidence. I’d put that in the zero credibility camp myself.”

Please, what is this prattle supposed to be? Goodnight!

cynickal
cynickal
9 years ago

And I’m not sure how I can be considered an apologist when the entire discussion has been expressly focused of FALSE rape accusations

Because you’re not actually reading any of the information you’ve been given.
Because you make sweeping statements about:

If I’ve had sex with 100 different women, then there are, at least, 100 different women who could falsely claim that I had raped them.

Completely ignoring the fact that statistically you’d already be charged with assault if we accepted your sophistry.

Because you spend large amounts of time and energy defending accused rapists rather than acknowledging that 40 to 50% of rapes aren’t ever reported.

Because you continue to move the goalposts.

Because we recognise you’re not arguing in good faith.

Rutee Katreya
9 years ago

I was merely pointing out how I think that ““False Rape Reports”, which statically aren’t any more frequent than false murder reports or false theft reports.” is an incorrect statement. I’m not worried about being accused of raping someone, I’m saying that it is more likely that I will be accused of raping someone than I’ll be accused of murdering someone

But yo’ure even more likely to not only be accused of false Possession, Assault, or Robbery charges, but to have those charges send you to jail DESPITE BEING FALSE (Particularly for Possession, because engineering it to make you guilty is almost trivial, due to the exceptionally low standards for that)

Again it is not apologising for rape to say that, sometimes, people make false rape accusations. Pray tell what exactly is stupid about that?

What you just said has the net effect of making it easier for rapists to not be reported or convicted. That is apologia. It’s also stupid because it misses the point; even if there are 4 times as many false rape reports (After accounting for the underreporting of rape, that means rape comes out pretty close to other false reports for crimes; statistically significant difference, but not a really major one), there are so many more instances of other crimes being reported that it ultimately means you’re much less likely to be accused for a false rape. And the penalty for rape is a lot smaller than murder anyway, so if you want to worry about one of these long shots, you might as well worry about the big one. And I’m not fucking kidding about false drug charges. Not only are they easier to stick, even if it isn’t true the reputation damage will still be done, and there’s a good chance some of your shit will be taken and you will never get it back)

Rutee Katreya
9 years ago

Small correction: I was imprecise. If there were actually 4 times as many false rape reports, as there were reports for any other crime, it’d actually be a specific and major problem.

But Rape is one of the least reported major crimes, and even with a false report rape that is generously 4 times that of the other crimes, the odds are *still* higher that a false charge of something else would be placed on you (And for a number of other crimes, that false charge is *MUCH EASIER* to stick on you, and get not just to trial but to conviction). Combine that with Rape’s underreporting, and it’s just.. not as big a deal. The only reason the false report statistics are whoamg out of balance looks like, unsurprisingly, the low reporting rape of actual rape.

mythago
9 years ago

qwert666 @7:34 pm:
I don’t think I’ve got much credibility going here either. I’m going to have to bow out of this one myself as I think I’ve said all that I wanted to say anyway, ’til next time.

qwert666 @8:01 p.m.:
I don’t have the figures at hand to be able to discuss this in such detail. In addition, I really need to get some sleep before work tomorrow. Thank you for the interesting discussion.

qwert666 @8:03 p.m.:
Please, what is this prattle supposed to be? Goodnight!

Anyone want to start a betting pool on when the next I’m-really-leaving-this-time post happens?

Pecunium
9 years ago

qwert: You are making a leap, which is to say that false rape is easier to charge, ergo it’s more likely.

Murder is, in some ways, easier to make a false charge of, because, unlike rape, the victim is dead. Unless someone saw the act committed, all that it takes to be accused is to not have an explanation the police like when the ask you about the crime.

I comment the book, “Mean Justice” for examples of just how this happens to people.

Rape requires, for a false accusation; of the sort the FRA and accuse women of committing, that someone have cause to identify someone as their rapist.

I’m not worried about being accused of raping someone, I’m saying that it is more likely that I will be accused of raping someone than I’ll be accused of murdering someone. I don’t see how this is an absurd thing to think.

Well, it’s true that rape is a more common crime than murder, and if we say that 6 percent of rape reports are knowingly false (thus putting at several hundred times the rate of false accusations of murder) the absolute likelihood of you being accused is higher, but it’s very rare for false accusations of crimes to be of random people, so unless you are in the habit of doing things which make enemies of people willing to frame others as form of revenge, I’d not worry much.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Sorry, The FRS, and suchlike MRA fronts.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Also, for other crimes innocent people are convicted of… rape has a 50 percent conviction rate, more or less.

Drug charges have a 90 percent conviction rate. Barring Violent Rape, the sentences are lot worse for drug cases,and the DA routinely overcharges, so as to be able to plea-bargain down to something the accused will take, as a better deal than the risk of conviction.

It’s not that hard to plead a non-violent rape case down to something much less severe; if one isn’t willing to take a 50:50 gamble. In non-violent rape, I’ll wager(though I don’t know) the odds are actually better than 50:50, because of what the defense is allowed to do.

Not so in a drug/assault/murder case. The police, who are well regarded by juries; to start with, are trained in how to testify, and they are good at it. They know how to tell shaded truths, even if they don’t decide to pad the testimony to see the “dirtbag” gets convicted. An appalling number of jurors think the defendant has to prove innocence, in a run of the mill crime, but that the accuser has to prove rape.

So the risks, even if one is falsely accused, are much higher for non-rapes.

Jenn93
Jenn93
9 years ago

Regarding factoring the character of a person who is accused: while you may be inclined to side with people you’ve known for a while, character is never a good indication of deciding whether someone is guilty. Historically, that has led to quite a few innocent people getting locked up/executed. A more recent example would be the West Memphis three who were assumed to be murderers for being metal-heads in a heavily Christian town. Serial killers tend to be extremely charming, and everyone always says “I would have NEVER suspected this person.”

A person committing a horrendous crime who is also your friend is not likely to show you that side of themselves. I know someone who had a good friend and room-mate who he knew for years. He was a thoughtful, fun guy with a great deal of empathy to him. They were close and talked a lot. He ended up getting arrested for having a library of child porn on his computer.

Character is not an accurate indication of guilt.

qwert666
qwert666
9 years ago

@ cynickal

“If I’ve had sex with 100 different women, then there are, at least, 100 different women who could falsely claim that I had raped them.”

This statement is completely true and I don’t understand your problem with it. This whole aspect of the discussion came about because you said that “MRA’s and their allies focus on “False Rape Reports”, which statically aren’t any more frequent than false murder reports or false theft reports.” Which I don’t believe is a correct or accurate statement. If you’d care to provide some reasonable evidence to support this claim then I’ll have no problem in agreeing with you. But, as you haven’t done so, I can only assume that you haven’t the evidence. So I’ll stick with my belief that you made it up.

“Because you spend large amounts of time and energy defending accused rapists rather than acknowledging that 40 to 50% of rapes aren’t ever reported.”

Firstly I completely accept that the vast majority of rapes are unreported (I thought the figure was more like 90% and am pleased to hear that this is not the case). Secondly I’m not defending all accused rapists. I’m saying that we shouldn’t say all the accusations are true any more than we should say that they are all false. Because we all know that false accusations are made just as we all know that people are raped.

@ Rutee

“But yo’ure even more likely to not only be accused of false Possession, Assault, or Robbery charges, but to have those charges send you to jail DESPITE BEING FALSE (Particularly for Possession, because engineering it to make you guilty is almost trivial, due to the exceptionally low standards for that)”

I don’t have a problem in believing this either. If you read what I have written the issue I have is in believing that I’m equally likely to be falsely accused of murder as I am of rape, I think that this is a ludicrous idea, and without evidence to support it then I don’t see why I should be expected to change my mind. I’m probably far more likely to be killed in a road traffic accident than be falsely accused of rape and yet I still drive, so I don’t believe I’m speaking out of fear of being accused.

“What you just said has the net effect of making it easier for rapists to not be reported or convicted. That is apologia.”

Rutee I really do take exception to this. I fucking hate rapists: fucking hate them. But I also fucking hate people who falsely accuse people of raping them. If you want to blame people for the underreporting of rape, then blame the people who are making the false accusations, not people like me who are merely pointing out that these people are making such accusations. The more false accusations that are made then the less rape convictions there will be (as false accusations are difficult to prove) and this will be reflected in statistics. Lower conviction rates mean less victims coming forward. If we all act as Holly suggests and support all accusations false or otherwise, regardless of circumstances, then the more likely false accusations are to be made. Therefore, in my view, worsening the situation for the real victims of rape as well as the innocent people who have false accusations made against them.

@ mythago

Do you have anything of worth or interest to say?

@ Pecunium

“ which is to say that false rape is easier to charge, ergo it’s more likely.”

I wasn’t trying to suggest that false rape is easier to charge, merely to make an accusation about. I’ll try to explain.

I can’t as easily say “You killed my best friend” as I can say “You raped my best friend”. To make the first accusation my best friend would have to be either dead or missing. To make the second they would only need to be alive. This is what I was getting at, although, I’ll admit, I didn’t make it very clear before. I was talking about being able to make a false, yet seemingly credible, accusation and that is far easier to do in the second example. I could, hypothetically, make a new false rape accusation every single day of my life, and they all would have to be investigated, suspects interviewed etc etc. But if I tried this with accusations of murder, then not one single suspect would be interviewed because there would be no dead bodies or missing persons. This is why I find cynickal’s claim farfetched; it makes no sense that it would be the case.

@ Jenn93

I agree also that “Character is not an accurate indication of guilt.”. But were not talking about judicial proceedings here, were talking about if we trust and believe in our best friends and family or not. Once a case gets to court then the whole process obviously becomes more complex and other things are taken into account. But I can’t honestly believe that anyone here, when given no genuine reason to doubt the word of their friend or family member is going to say to them “Sorry mate. Even though I’ve known you all my life and you’re a kind, gentle and caring husband, father, brother and friend. And you’ve never shown anything but the highest level of character a man could display. I’m afraid that the odds of you being innocent are X% so sadly I must suspect you to be guilty. You’re on your own. Tough shit!”

Pecunium
9 years ago

Firstly I completely accept that the vast majority of rapes are unreported (I thought the figure was more like 90% and am pleased to hear that this is not the case). Secondly I’m not defending all accused rapists. I’m saying that we shouldn’t say all the accusations are true any more than we should say that they are all false. Because we all know that false accusations are made just as we all know that people are raped.

Let me get this straight: The majority (vast, overwhelming, absolute: choose your modifying adjective of choice) are true. Right? I mean we are accepting that, even if there is a treble rate of false rape vs. false anything else, more than 90 percent of the people who say they were raped, were raped.

So what makes you say we need to treat rape as some special case, where we don’t assume the complaint is valid? Really. If 90:10 is the ratio, the default assumption is that this claim (whatever the claim is) is true.

That’s why people say you are defending rapists.

Rutee I really do take exception to this. I fucking hate rapists: fucking hate them. But I also fucking hate people who falsely accuse people of raping them. If you want to blame people for the underreporting of rape, then blame the people who are making the false accusations, not people like me who are merely pointing out that these people are making such accusations.

I’d say, from your arguments, you hate one group more than the other, and the way you are defending the other group, is providing cover for the one most likely to be guilty.

Seriously, if you think 90 percent of those who make an accusation are telling the truth, why do you say we need to doubt all of them?

But if I tried this with accusations of murder, then not one single suspect would be interviewed because there would be no dead bodies or missing persons. This is why I find cynickal’s claim farfetched; it makes no sense that it would be the case.

I admitted that one needs a body. What I also said is that, with the existence of a dead body, the odds of an non-guilty person being charged are much higher than with rape.

As I said, if you are hanging out with people who are the sort to frame the people they are mad at with crimes, then yeah, you are; perhaps, at a higher risk of a false rape accusation. For the rest of the world, it’s actually not that much more likely than an incorrect charge of murder.

But I can’t honestly believe that anyone here, when given no genuine reason to doubt the word of their friend or family member is going to say to them “Sorry mate. Even though I’ve known you all my life and you’re a kind, gentle and caring husband, father, brother and friend. And you’ve never shown anything but the highest level of character a man could display. I’m afraid that the odds of you being innocent are X% so sadly I must suspect you to be guilty. You’re on your own. Tough shit!”

Define, “on your own, tough shit!”. Because I did explain just how it is that I have persistent doubts that someone I love did something that, were it to be shown that he was guilty, I think he ought to go to prison for. If the charges I don’t believe (they are possible, but fall outside the realm of believable; not so much for the charge, but for the evidence) were to prove true, I’d want him to go to prison for decades.

Because that’s the way I feel about those charges. But, my affection isn’t such that I am going to say, “No, it could never happen.” It’s such that I am suspending judgement.

I won’t say he’s innocent. I won’t say the case ought not be investigated (I volunteered to talk to the FBI about it, because I was, tangientally, involved in some of the more questionable aspects of the case). I was willing to co-operate completely, from the very beginning, in the hopes of getting to the bottom of it: so I would know.

But they let it slide, and now I can’t.

qwert666
qwert666
9 years ago

@ Pecunium

I don’t think that we can discuss the false murder accusations versus false rape accusations any further because neither of us have any real numbers that we can talk about. So, I fear, it is a waste of time. I’m still waiting on cynickal’s statistics, but I doubt that they are going to be forthcoming.

“Let me get this straight: The majority (vast, overwhelming, absolute: choose your modifying adjective of choice) are true. Right? I mean we are accepting that, even if there is a treble rate of false rape vs. false anything else, more than 90 percent of the people who say they were raped, were raped. So what makes you say we need to treat rape as some special case, where we don’t assume the complaint is valid? Really. If 90:10 is the ratio, the default assumption is that this claim (whatever the claim is) is true.”

I don’t think that your conclusion, or grasp of statistics, is correct. If only 10% of actual rapes are reported then this means nothing with regard to the percentage of false rape accusations. It only means that 10% of genuine rapes are reported. The 90% who don’t report their rapes are, sadly, not included in the statistics, because they don’t exist within the figures. We don’t know how many of the reported rapes are genuine form this figure alone.

For instance, if only 10% of genuine rapes were reported then even if it was ten times more likely that a rape occur than a false accusation there would still be a 50% rate of false accusations being made.

To put this in numbers: 100 genuine rapes. 10 genuine rapes reported. 20 rapes reported (10 genuine and 10 false). = 50% of rape reports are false. If it were the case that it were 100 times more likely that a rape occurred than a false accusation be made, we would have: 100 genuine rapes. 10 genuine rapes reported. 10.5 rapes reported (10 genuine 0.5 false) = 5% false reports.

Again, none of us have the exact figures here, because the figures themselves, as far as I am aware, do not exist.

“I’d say, from your arguments, you hate one group more than the other, and the way you are defending the other group, is providing cover for the one most likely to be guilty.”

I’d agree with you, if the statistical evidence was there to support it, but it isn’t. The fact is that neither of us knows how many false accusations are made or how many people are genuinely being raped. This is the whole crux of my argument here: that we can’t say, to any degree of certainty, how likely it is that someone is raped than a false accusation being made.

“I admitted that one needs a body. What I also said is that, with the existence of a dead body, the odds of an non-guilty person being charged are much higher than with rape.”

I agree with this statement completely.

“Define, “on your own, tough shit!”. Because I did explain just how it is that I have persistent doubts that someone I love did something that, were it to be shown that he was guilty, I think he ought to go to prison for. If the charges I don’t believe (they are possible, but fall outside the realm of believable; not so much for the charge, but for the evidence) were to prove true, I’d want him to go to prison for decades.”

Pecunium I’m sorry if you thought that I was referring to you personally and to what you said earlier about your friend. I wasn’t aiming this at you, personally. I didn’t mean any disrespect here. I was just trying to put into words something that would, though logical, be an almost impossible thing to say to a friend in the circumstances.

Rutee Katreya
9 years ago

I don’t have a problem in believing this either. If you read what I have written the issue I have is in believing that I’m equally likely to be falsely accused of murder as I am of rape, I think that this is a ludicrous idea

I don’t give a fuck about that.

and without evidence to support it then I don’t see why I should be expected to change my mind. I’m probably far more likely to be killed in a road traffic accident than be falsely accused of rape and yet I still drive, so I don’t believe I’m speaking out of fear of being accused.

And yet, you choose to whine to feminists about false rape accusations first and foremost. If you gave a fuck about reality your first response would have been telling the idiots in the OP that, as a matter of fact, false accusations of drug crimes are more likely in an absolute sense, and more damaging by the sheer ease of sticking a conviction.

I don’t think that your conclusion, or grasp of statistics, is correct. If only 10% of actual rapes are reported then this means nothing with regard to the percentage of false rape accusations. It only means that 10% of genuine rapes are reported. The 90% who don’t report their rapes are, sadly, not included in the statistics, because they don’t exist within the figures. We don’t know how many of the reported rapes are genuine form this figure alone.

Roughly 40% of rapes are reported; potentially drastically less. If we accept that 8% of the current reported rapes are false, and only 40% are actually reported, than the actual false report rate is only about 3.33%. Worse than other crimes, but not nearly so much so to make up for other crimes having drastically higher incidence rates, conviction records, and typically worse sentences on conviction (Yes, that is accounting for the 40% incidence rate in crime statistics)

I fucking hate rapists: fucking hate them. But I also fucking hate people who falsely accuse people of raping them.

And yet, you spend far more time whining about the people who exist in substantially smaller numbers. And I’m supposed to believe you.

The more false accusations that are made then the less rape convictions there will be (as false accusations are difficult to prove) and this will be reflected in statistics

Yeah… you’re not actually good at statistics. Even by the most liberal statistics of false accusations of rape,t he ones that look at all Not Guilty verdicts as proof of a lie, the rate of false rape is not actually sufficient to make up for the difference in sucessful prosecution of rape vs. other crimes.

be reflected in statistics. Lower conviction rates mean less victims coming forward. If we all act as Holly suggests and support all accusations false or otherwise, regardless of circumstances, then the more likely false accusations are to be made.

On what basis do you make this claim? By this logic, rape should have the *lowest* rate of false accusations, because it’s the one where the least ‘credit’ is granted to the victim. And yet, this isn’t born out by the facts.

Therefore, in my view, worsening the situation for the real victims of rape as well as the innocent people who have false accusations made against them.

You do realize that eyewitness testimony is still one of the most ‘trustworthy’ sources of information to a juror, right? By making the testimony of the victim even less believable by sheer virtue of being a rape victim, you are having the opposite effect you claim to be after.

qwert666
qwert666
9 years ago

@ Rutee

“I don’t give a fuck about that.”

Fair enough, though, you brought it up.

“And yet, you choose to whine to feminists about false rape accusations first and foremost. If you gave a fuck about reality your first response would have been telling the idiots in the OP that, as a matter of fact, false accusations of drug crimes are more likely in an absolute sense, and more damaging by the sheer ease of sticking a conviction.”

I’m not whining to anybody. Seriously Rutee, I’m trying to have a discussion about the issue, because, I’m not wholly convinced that the information I’ve been receiving on the subject is entirely correct. I don’t claim to be a fucking expert on the matter so cut me some slack, eh?

“the idiots in the OP that, as a matter of fact, false accusations of drug crimes are more likely in an absolute sense “ You mean Holly Pervocracy and Ozymandias, right?

“Roughly 40% of rapes are reported; potentially drastically less. If we accept that 8% of the current reported rapes are false, and only 40% are actually reported, than the actual false report rate is only about 3.33%. “

But this is the point. It’s all fucking pie in the sky figures we’re talking about. And I’m honestly and sincerely sorry if these figures you quote are correct. I’d appreciate it if you could point me in the direction of some accredited statistics concerning false rape accusations.

“And yet, you spend far more time whining about the people who exist in substantially smaller numbers. And I’m supposed to believe you. “

Again, Rutee, a concern for my fellow men and women is not, in my view, to be considered as whining. If you’ve read what I’ve written earlier than you might get to understand that I’m more concerned with the notion of justice than simply going with the majority view.

“The more false accusations that are made then the less rape convictions there will be (as false accusations are difficult to prove) and this will be reflected in statistics “

Do you honestly think the above statement to be false?

“On what basis do you make this claim? “
It’s the very same logic that Holly used in her piece. That victims are less likely to come forward if they are less likely to be believed. And the more false accusations are made, the lesser the percentage of successful convictions there will be, ergo, the less likely an accuser is to be believed. Pretty straightforward stuff, I think.

“You do realize that eyewitness testimony is still one of the most ‘trustworthy’ sources of information to a juror, right? “

I’m not sure that “eyewitness testimony” is really relevant in cases of rape, wherein, there are only two “witnesses” involved i.e. the accused and the accuser.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Ah, he’s a fairness concern troll.

“I’d appreciate it if you could point me in the direction of some accredited statistics concerning false rape accusations.”

There’s this new thing called Google. Try it.

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

You know, Qwert, I was down with your whole “I am just figuring out how to think about stuff” thing a while back. But the more you noodle around inside your own opinions while ignoring what knowledgeable people say about this stuff, the less I think you’re completely sincere.

qwert666
qwert666
9 years ago

@ hellkell

“Ah, he’s a fairness concern troll.”

Is fairness a bad thing in your view? Is being “fair” a “bad” thing? If you have anything worthwhile to say then, please, go right ahead. Otherwise, kindly fuck off!

“Roughly 40% of rapes are reported; potentially drastically less. If we accept that 8% of the current reported rapes are false, and only 40% are actually reported, than the actual false report rate is only about 3.33%.”

Rutee’s words, not mine. I asked her for the source… Am I supposed to rush off and try to locate the source or is she expected to provide it?

qwert666
qwert666
9 years ago

@ VoiP

I understand yours, and others, concerns about me. But try to understand from my view point, you are all just strangers on the ManBoobz blog to me. I’m not going to take anyone’s word for anything without sufficient evidence to support their claims. I might sometimes come across as a floundering idiot, but this is because a lot of these subjects are very new to me, and a lot of what I am presenting in arguments is information that I want to test out against people with conflicting opinions to mine. However, if what I’m saying is nonsense, then it would be easy for more “knowledgeable people” to convince me that I’m incorrect in my assumptions. Yet, they haven’t been able to do so in this instance, so I conclude that I must be on to something.

Pecunium
9 years ago

qwert: You are confused.

The numbers of non-reported rapes aren’t material to this issue, just as the numbers of non-reported assaults/burglaries/batteries/thefts, don’t apply to the rate of false accusations.

Moreover, the numbers we are using, are for reported rapes.

To put this in numbers.

100 assaults reported = 98 honest reports.

100 rapes reported = 90 honest reports.

As rutee says, the real numbers, if we include the non-reported stats you want to add, come out to about on a par for other crimes (which run at about 2 percent; which includes false convictions for murder; take a look at the innocence project and see how many people have been removed from death row).

Pecunium I’m sorry if you thought that I was referring to you personally and to what you said earlier about your friend. I wasn’t aiming this at you, personally. I didn’t mean any disrespect here. I was just trying to put into words something that would, though logical, be an almost impossible thing to say to a friend in the circumstances.*

And I was showing you what, in exactly the circumstances you described, I did. He was accused. For lack of the case being pursued I have to decide what I think. What I think is the alleged crime is probably not what happened.

But I won’t say that nothing could have happened.

I’m not whining to anybody. Seriously Rutee, I’m trying to have a discussion about the issue, because, I’m not wholly convinced that the information I’ve been receiving on the subject is entirely correct. I don’t claim to be a fucking expert on the matter so cut me some slack, eh?

This is problematic, because when presented with evidence, you say it’s not good enough, or not sufficient. You’ve also moved the goalposts (by adding in things which aren’t included in the stats for other crimes), and then said that makes all attempts to determine numbers impossible.

Which would make it impossible to actually discuss.

It’s the very same logic that Holly used in her piece. That victims are less likely to come forward if they are less likely to be believed.

So you’re cure for this is to increase the level of doubt for those who do come forward.

However, if what I’m saying is nonsense, then it would be easy for more “knowledgeable people” to convince me that I’m incorrect in my assumptions. Yet, they haven’t been able to do so in this instance, so I conclude that I must be on to something.

But when numbers, and the disportionate levels of damage to life/liberty of a false accustaion which goes to trial (including the differential rates of conviction), you persist in saying, “yes, but what are the real facts”.

Look at the case I made for murder (complete with a book dealing with the problem of how false convictions in murder/child abuse:molestation happen). Your reply was to say, “well, the odds of my being charged are slim; unless someone I know gets murdered, but at least a hundred women could make a false accusation of rape.

So, from here, when presented with facts, you wave your hands and say, Not Good Enough; some man, some where, might not be believed when he says he didn’t do it, and that’s not fair.

*You were the one who used the term, “tough shit, you’re on your own,” so you are the one who needs to define it.

Pecunium
9 years ago

qwert: I understand yours, and others, concerns about me. But try to understand from my view point, you are all just strangers on the ManBoobz blog to me. I’m not going to take anyone’s word for anything without sufficient evidence to support their claims.

I wanted to go back to this.

What support, other than some vague (and not very well supported) philosophical musings on the questions of loyalty, and doubt/proof, have you offered?

For example, what support for your contention that giving more doubt/less credence to the victim who reports rape will lead to a lesser rate of false accusation?

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Hey quert, who the fuck are you to tell me anything? You can drop the whole “if you don’t have anything worthwhile to contribute” bit too. Do you have anything to say except “gee, I don’t know about this, I still think the false rape is more important than real rape victims” song and dance? I really adore how you MRAs come here and think you get to define terms.

Fairness is not a bad thing in and of itself, but your repeated instance on it appears less than honest.

That coupled with your refusal to look stuff up while insisting on being spoonfed info does lead me to believe you when you say you’re an idiot.

In short, fuck off.

darksidecat
9 years ago

Eyewitness identification (which is the largely problematic area) is not really an issue where the parties know each other, like most rape cases. Misidentification of the perp (the most common issue with false convictions) is most common in cases of interracial stranger rape. Which, frankly, is not an incredibly common type of rape, especially not up the racial heirarchy (by this I mean that white people raping people of color is far more frequent by all accounts, incredibly frequent in some situations, but the reverse is extremely rare).

But even those cases, the issue is not that the victim wasn’t raped, the victim generally was raped, they just mistook a person with some similarities in features with the actual rapist.

qwert666
qwert666
9 years ago

@ Pecunium

This discussion has gone far beyond what I intended it to be. My only issue concerning statistics is that I’m as likely to be falsely accused of murder as I am of rape. I still think this is nonsense and, despite claims that I am ignoring evidence and facts, no one here has actually provided, or linked to any evidence to support this statement. Of course this is because such evidence does not exist, but it’s a non issue as far as I’m concerned anyway. Unreported rapes occur, how many? No-one knows. False rape accusations are made, how many? No-one knows. The very nature of these things means that it is impossible to know the numbers. I’m prepared to admit this, are you?

But I do know that unreported rapes happen and that false rape accusations are made. And that is why I think it folly (and quite probably destructive) to assume that any accusation be automatically believed based solely on statistical probability (see above) or without regard to the circumstances relevant to the people concerned (e.g. the example you gave regarding your friend). I’ve already explained earlier my thoughts on his. To over-simplify: It’s not as simple as saying “It’s more likely to be true than not, so therefore, it is true”.

“100 rapes reported = 90 honest reports.”

You need to give evidence of this claim if it is to mean anything.

“Which would make it impossible to actually discuss.”

In terms of actual numbers, I think that this is the case. But then I’m not an expert on the issue.

“So you’re cure for this is to increase the level of doubt for those who do come forward.”

I think that the cure would be to encourage victims to come forward and, at the same time, to dissuade false accusers from making their false accusations. I think that you must do both to be successful. Because if you encourage both genuine and false accusations at the same time then conviction rates will likely remain the same. How to achieve this I have no idea. But I don’t think that a blanket assumption that all accusations are genuine is the solution when we all know that they are not.

“Look at the case I made for murder (complete with a book dealing with the problem of how false convictions in murder/child abuse:molestation happen).”

Let’s forget the whole false rape vs false murder thing. Though I appreciate your efforts I don’t honestly think it necessary to read an entire book to understand that one is more likely than the other.

“*You were the one who used the term, “tough shit, you’re on your own,” so you are the one who needs to define it.”

I think that it’s pretty self explanatory what it means. It means “your my best friend, and even though you’ve given me no cause to believe it to be true, statistically you are a rapist, therefore, I think that you are a rapist. And as I don’t like rapists, you are no longer my friend etc etc etc.” This is what Holly was advocating in the linked blog. Or do you interpret it differently?

By the way Pecunium, what do you believe the conviction rate for rape to be?

I only ask as I’d like to compare it to “100 rapes reported = 90 honest reports.”.

Pecunium
9 years ago

qwert: You dislike my numbers. Fine. But those numbers were illustrative of your assumptions.

You haven’t been saying, “we can’t know the numbers of false rape reports”. You have been saying false rape reports are greater problem than any other falsely reported crime.

If you are willing to retract that, fine. But so long as you maintain it, you are responsible to defend it.

What do I think the conviction rate is for rape?

Per the FBI, in 2008 the arrest rate for rape complainets was 25 percent.

That means the highest possible rate of conviction for actual rape complaints, in the US is 25 percent.

Now, explain to me, in simple words, because the idea seems strange, what my comment (based on a generous rounding up, to make the hypothetical numbers easier to manipulate; so as to address the issues you raised) what my opinion of the conviction rate, has to do with the rate of malicious/false complaint.

Simon
Simon
9 years ago

qwert, just because the rate of allegations, that are classified as ‘unfounded’, is four times higher for rape than for other crimes, it doesn’t mean that false rape reports are a greater problem!

qwert666
qwert666
9 years ago

@ Pecunium

It’s not that “I dislike” your numbers. It’s that I don’t know where you have gotten them from. The figures that I was using I’d read somewhere that I now can’t remember where. I don’t believe them to be accurate. But, for all I know, you’ve just made yours up off the top of your head.

“You have been saying false rape reports are greater problem than any other falsely reported crime.”

No, I haven’t been saying this at all. What I’ve been saying is that I think more false rape accusations are made than false MURDER accusations. I haven’t said any more than that, as far as I can recall. If you’d care to point out where I’ve said such things, I’d much appreciate it.

“Per the FBI, in 2008 the arrest rate for rape complainets was 25 percent.

That means the highest possible rate of conviction for actual rape complaints, in the US is 25 percent.”

I’m not used to dealing with these terms, but, from the above I would say that the arrest rate for rape accusations is 25%. I don’t get how this then becomes a maximum of 25% rape convictions. You can’t convict someone who hasn’t been charged. I’d say the maximum conviction rate possible is 100% (of those charged). That’s how you would determine the conviction rate, by comparing the number of guilty verdicts with the number of cases where charges (not arrests) were made. Don’t you agree?

“That means the highest possible rate of conviction for actual rape complaints, in the US is 25 percent”

I think that this is a meaningless statement when considering the conviction rates for rape.

What happened to the missing 75%, the complaints that don’t result in arrests? These must surely include a significant number of false accusations that the police determine as such. If we use your figures then 90% of these 75% of accusations are genuine rapes that do not result in arrests. Is this what you believe?

The reason I asked you what the conviction rate was, was to compare it to your figure of 10% false accusations being made. To see how many genuine rapists you believe are getting away with rapes that they have committed.

When we go all the way back to the origins of the discussion (Holly’s blog post) we can see that we are talking about rape allegations / accusations. We are not talking about arrests, convictions, charges etc etc etc. An accusation doesn’t have to result in an arrest or conviction for it to be an accusation. It doesn’t even have to be made to the police. From personal experience I know of four women who have made, and later admitted to making, false rape accusations (one woman made, at least that I know of, two separate accusations). Four of these accusations were made to the police, all charges were dropped by the women who made them. Three were made as cover for adultery, one was made post divorce as revenge against her husband. One was made against a very close friend of mine, not to the police but to friends and acquaintances, in order to cover up a violent assault that she had perpetrated against my friend. As you can see, not all false rape accusations result in arrests and not all of them will appear in your statistics. But this doesn’t mean that they don’t exist, it merely means that we don’t know how many of them are being made. And that’s why I think your 10% figure is wholly inaccurate.

@ Simon

“qwert, just because the rate of allegations, that are classified as ‘unfounded’, is four times higher for rape than for other crimes, it doesn’t mean that false rape reports are a greater problem!”

You are right, it doesn’t mean that this IS the case. But it STRONGLY suggests to me that it might well be the case. How can you determine that these ‘unfounded’ accusations are not, in fact, false?

Bee
Bee
9 years ago

What happened to the missing 75%, the complaints that don’t result in arrests? These must surely include a significant number of false accusations that the police determine as such.

Why “surely”? You don’t think that most of those complaints are determined by either the police or the DA’s office unlikely to meet a beyond a reasonable doubt standard in court? Where the perpetrator claims the sex was consensual and there’s no evidence that it wasn’t? Or where the victim isn’t seen as trustworthy because xie was drunk and can’t remember what happened, or hir story changes (a common result of trauma), or xie’s from a marginalized group or has a sexual history that would cause jurors to disbelieve hir? Or where the victim decides xie doesn’t want to go through with the trial and declines to continue complying with the police investigation? Or where the DNA evidence is inconclusive?

Or maybe I’m just not understanding what you mean. How do you define “significant”?

Bee
Bee
9 years ago

You are right, it doesn’t mean that this IS the case. But it STRONGLY suggests to me that it might well be the case. How can you determine that these ‘unfounded’ accusations are not, in fact, false?

Well, one thing I’d look at is the attitude about rape that police, judges, and juries have in the U.S. Having sat in on a number of police interviews, and read a lot of civil and criminal trial transcripts from rape cases, I can tell you: It stinks. It’s not like all police officers and judges are awful and skeptical toward victims (but a lot of them are), and it’s not like rapists never get convicted, but there’s a really long way to go before the legal system (and society in general) will be able to grasp the idea that just because someone is homeless, a sex worker, an addict, disabled, sexually active, LGBTQ, a little bit “wild,” or drunk, doesn’t mean that it’s OK they were raped. (And: that just because someone is successful, good-looking, and has access to consensual sex, doesn’t mean they didn’t rape this person who says they did.)

The bottom line is, people are very undereducated about rape, and it shows in how rape in handled by our legal system. Juries want to see bruising, tearing, and other injuries. They want to see a clearly “good girl” who was raped by a clearly “bad man.” Anything else is difficult to try.