Feminism or death?

“Could that be described as a matriarchal system? ”

No, that’s not what the word matriarchal means. A matriarchal society would be one in which women control govenment, business, the media, etc. Such societies existed in the distant past, but they’re very uncommon now. What I’m describing are societies in which extended families tend to live close to each other and be heavily involved in each other’s everyday lives.

I still have no idea what you mean when you use the word matriarchal, Rev. A clear definition from you might help this conversation unfold a little more smoothly – it’s almost impossible for people to engage with your arguments if you’re using words to mean things that they don’t actually mean according to the dictionary or in common usage.

“More than 600 mothers kill their children each year, which gives rise to a psychological condition described as “maternal filicide,” according to a child psychologist who has reviewed the worldwide research on this topic.”

Not sure if that stat included neonaticide and infanticide.

Dude, your “source” doesn’t even indicate where these supposed 600 mothers do their murdering — he never even says that’s only in the US — let alone how many children are killed by these mothers, or what ages. Even if the guy weren’t a bogus source these stats are uselessly vague.

@Rev: Butterworth may have an enviable list of media appearances, but a quick search in the psychology academic datases is finding ZERO

Search in PsycARTICLES, PsycCRitiques, Psychology and Behavioral Sciences Colleciton, and PsychInfo: under both Butterworth, Robert R. and Robert R. Butterworth showed ZERO publications in peer reviewed sources.

Shifting to Academic Search Complete and Soc Index in case he’s published in other social science venues outside “pure psychology”–zero.

Then I put some of your terms into the psychology databases.

Some results: Filicide: A comparative study of maternal versus paternal child homicide.
Images

Authors:
Liem, Marieke
Koenraadt, Frans
Source:
Criminal Behaviour & Mental Health, Sep2008, Vol. 18 Issue 3, p166-176, 11p, 3 Charts
Document Type:
Article
Subject Terms:
FILICIDE
HOMICIDE
MURDER
INFANTICIDE
MENTAL illness
MENTALLY ill
MEDICAL care
PRIMARY care (Medicine)
Geographic Terms:
NETHERLANDS
Abstract:
Background Filicide is the murder of a child by a parent. Historically, filicide was regarded as a female crime, but nowadays, in the West, men have become increasingly likely to be convicted of killing their child. Previous research on filicide has primarily focussed on either maternal or paternal filicide rather than comparing the two. Aim The aim of our study is to examine and compare the socio-demographic, environmental and psychopathological factors underlying maternal and paternal filicide. Methods Data were extracted from records in a forensic psychiatric observation hospital in Utrecht, in the Netherlands for the period 1953–2004. Results Seventy-nine men and 82 women were detained in the hospital under criminal charges in that period, having killed (132) or attempted to kill (29) their own child(ren). Differences between men and women were found with regard to age, methods of killing and motivation underlying the filicide. Conclusions The categories of filicide identified corresponded to those in studies from other countries, indicating that filicide follows similar patterns throughout the Western world. The fact that 25% of fathers had killed in reaction to threatened separation or divorce, and that over a third of men and more than half of the women were mentally ill at the time may suggest that increased monitoring by primary care physicians under such circumstances might have preventive value. Copyright © 2008 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR]

Copyright of Criminal Behaviour & Mental Health is the property of John Wiley & Sons, Inc. and its content may not be copied or emailed to multiple sites or posted to a listserv without the copyright holder’s express written permission. However, users may print, download, or email articles for individual use. This abstract may be abridged. No warranty is given about the accuracy of the copy. Users should refer to the original published version of the material for the full abstract. (Copyright applies to all Abstracts.)
ISSN:
09579664
DOI:
10.1002/cbm.695
Accession Number:
33226706
Database:
Psychology and Behavioral Sciences Collection
Images:

Maternal filicide and mental illness in Italy: A comparative study.
Authors:
McKee, Geoffrey R., [email protected]
Bramante, Alesandra
Address:
McKee, Geoffrey R., P. O. Box 747, Columbia, SC, US, 29202, [email protected]
Source:
Journal of Psychiatry & Law, Vol 38(3), Fal, 2010. Special issue: Assessment and testimony in child abuse cases. pp. 271-282.
Page Count:
12
Publisher:
US: Federal Legal Communications.
ISSN:
0093-1853 (Print)
Language:
English
Keywords:
maternal filicide; mental illness; Italian mothers; mother child relations; demographic characteristics
Abstract:
This retrospective records review study of maternal filicide in Italy compared the demographic, historical, clinical, victim, and offense/forensic characteristics of mothers with (MI) and without (NMI) severe mental illness. MI mothers were found to be older, married, more intelligent, and unemployed at the time of their crime. They were more likely to be in psychiatric outpatient treatment and to have a history of suicide attempts. NMI mothers were more likely to have given birth in a nonhospital setting and to have a younger-aged victim. MI mothers were more likely to have confessed to their crime, but at trial almost all were acquitted by reason of insanity. Implications of the data for treatment planning and prevention are discussed. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2010 APA, all rights reserved)
Subjects:
*Demographic Characteristics; *Mental Disorders; *Mother Child Relations; *Mothers; *Filicide
Classification:
Psychological Disorders (3210)
Population:
Human (10)
Female (40)
Location:
Italy
Age Group:
Adulthood (18 yrs & older) (300)
Young Adulthood (18-29 yrs) (320)
Thirties (30-39 yrs) (340)
Methodology:
Empirical Study; Longitudinal Study; Retrospective Study; Qualitative Study
Format Availability:
Print
Format Covered:
Print
Publication Type:
Journal; Peer Reviewed Journal
Document Type:
Journal Article
Release Date:
20110117
Copyright:
Federal Legal Publications, Inc.. 2010.
Accession Number:
2010-26782-002
Number of Citations in Source:
21
Database:
PsycINFO
Full Text Database:
Academic Search Complete

Maternal filicide: a reformulation of factors relevant to risk.
Authors:
Simpson, Alexander I.F.
Stanton, Josephine
Source:
Criminal Behaviour & Mental Health, Jun2000, Vol. 10 Issue 2, p136, 12p
Document Type:
Article
Subject Terms:
FILICIDE
MENTAL illness
Abstract:
Background The current classifications of maternal filicide have relied on categorizations based on the immediate antecedents or motivations to the impulse to kill. The most useful outcome of these approaches has been to identify that the neonaticide group differ in terms of their age, demography, relationship profile and motivation from other maternal filicide perpetrators. The remaining groups are diverse and overlapping. Method Five case summaries are presented which demonstrate the interaction of a number of factors noted in the literature as separate categories of filicide. Results Mental illness, vulnerability factors, social isolation, and difficulty in forming successful relationships emerged as common themes. Conclusion It is postulated that only by examining a range of factors including mental state, relationship factors and the impact of developmental experience can a more useful understanding be developed that has clinical relevance and may be of value in risk assessment. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR]

Copyright of Criminal Behaviour & Mental Health is the property of John Wiley & Sons, Inc. and its content may not be copied or emailed to multiple sites or posted to a listserv without the copyright holder’s express written permission. However, users may print, download, or email articles for individual use. This abstract may be abridged. No warranty is given about the accuracy of the copy. Users should refer to the original published version of the material for the full abstract. (Copyright applies to all Abstracts.)
ISSN:
09579664
Accession Number:
6149965
Database:
Psychology and Behavioral Sciences Collection

Maternal filicide: A cross-national comparison.
Authors:
McKee, Geoffrey R.
Shea, Steven J.
Source:
Journal of Clinical Psychology, Aug98, Vol. 54 Issue 5, p679-687, 9p, 3 Charts
Document Type:
Article
Subject Terms:
INFANTICIDE
PSYCHOLOGY
Abstract:
Presents information on a study which compared the demographic, historical, clinical, forensic and offense characteristics of adult women charged with murdering their children who were referred to a forensic psychiatric hospital for pretrail evaluation. Reference to psychology; Number of women who were evaluated; Method used in the study; Findings of the study.
ISSN:
00219762
Accession Number:
901441
Database:
Psychology and Behavioral Sciences Collection
Publisher Logo:

The last is most useful in terms of our discussion, but I cannot cut/paste from it because it’s a pdf. Drop me an email, anybody, if you’d like a copy of the peer-reviewed study.

Overall, from skimming — yeah, women are more likely to kill their children (up to age 12), then men.

THere’s scholarship on the phenomenon — and it’s often tied to low income and depression (not addiction!), but it’s not as if anybody is defending teh wimminz (and mental illness is cited as a reason for paternal filicide as well).

Basically: I wouldn’t trust Butterworth one bit because he may be a psychologist, but he’s created a career as a media consultant, not, you know, an actual scholar. He’s reading the scholarship and simplifying for people, and if he’s that popular in the mainstream media, he’s giving people what they want to hear, which is going to involve sexism and racism.

Bee: Obviously, single mothers are more murderous than any other family model. 😛

Well, not that Spinnaker’s been able to admit what his actual point is, but I’m guessing that the only solution is to throw all mothers, single or not (and possibly just all women), in prison, as a preventative measure. He also seems really angry that not “enough” women get the death penalty, although he’s totally against the death penalty.

I’d like to point out that, although I had kind of forgotten about it, this morning is not the first time I’ve seen that HHS report. And I’m not even someone who claims child abuse as my “thing.” How embarrassing to go around claiming to be really involved with this one cause, and not be aware of the research surrounding that issue. Of course, how embarrassing also to claim to be against child abuse, but in fact only use it as a springboard for your gross variety of misogyny.

Thanks again Bee: So what your saying is mothers are directly involved with 766 child murders and men are involved with 478. That comes out to 1244 total, lower than the 2009 stat of 1770 on MSNBC with Katty Kay but way higher than 200 one of you linked me to earlier. Statistics vary with studies but 200 wasn’t even close.

Also, do these numbers include neonaticide? That’s a relatively new term developed by Phillip Resnick. Read more here.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2174580

By the way, it appears Butterworth took the motives for maternal child murder directly from this source. Resnick is highly regarded, working with the American Pychiatric Foundation, a reference I cited earlier.

ithiliana’s references dealt primarily with filicide, which sometimes include children as old as teenagers, but varies with individual studies.

And haven’t I been saying all along that single, poor and uneducated women were the most likely to be offenders? Haven’t I been saying lack of social programs and prenatal care was a contributing factor? Isn’t that a likely reason the Republican dominated state of Texas has the highest child murder rate in the country? Right along with the highest execution rate.

My point is none of you would have ever looked up any this, had you not been chafing at the bit to harangue-bang any male who doesn’t buy into your definition of feminist ideology hook, line and sinker.

@Bee: “I’d like to point out that, although I had kind of forgotten about it, this morning is not the first time I’ve seen that HHS report. And I’m not even someone who claims child abuse as my “thing.”

“Kind of forgotten?” Maybe if feminists made child abuse their “thing” more would be done to prevent it.

Remember prohibition? The Women’s Temperance League, which suprisingly included Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony, made prohibition happen. It was also a large Democratic women’s organization that brought it to an end.

Kind of forgetting about child abuse accomplishes nothing.

Maybe if feminists made child abuse their “thing” more would be done to prevent it.

Hmm, maybe you should make child abuse your thing, rather than spending a month harassing a blog where people come to snark about non-child-abuse-related issues. Is whining about Oprah really the best use of the last 25 years? Because that is apparently quite literally all you have done on this issue. “Oprah is a bitch, and until the entire blogosphere admits that I won’t rest in my pursuit of justice. Justice for me and teh menz, that is. Fuck the dead children.”

But hey, just because feminists are actively working towards exactly the kinds of programs that help prevent child abuse and murder, don’t let that stop you from relentlessly lying about our motives and interest in the subject! God knows that alienating potential allies in a dishonest and ignorant month-long trolling campaign is definitely in the best interest of the murdered children you masturbate tearfully over claim to care about. 9_9

Oh Jesus, I forgot the url to a government study that you didn’t know existed, you child murder enthusiast, you.

I’m not saying Rev gets off on this stuff, I’m just saying he has all those dead kid sites bookmarked and always minimizes them real quick when someone else walks in the room. We’re discussing child murders, Rev, please keep both your hands on the table. 😀

A man once bored me for an evening by explaining that the single most important things that feminists should do was make sure men paid their childsupport! And it was because he paid his ex-wife child support, but the women he dated were not given child support by their ex-husbands. And that was so unfair! And what was I, as a self-declared feminist, doing???????

Of course he also thought that me being a Wiccan meant I was interested in wicker furniture.

I wonder WHY I am so reminded of that night, so long ago (1986)?

Why, it’s the mansplaining here all about what feminists should do because one man thinks it’s the most important thing ever.

I’ve been a feminist since the early 1980s. I have never worked with any program involving domestic violence or child abuse or rape not because they are not important, but because I am involved in other areas of feminist movement. Changing social and institutional structures and attitudes requires changes in all venues–I teach.

And I don’t pay any more attention to the men telling me how I should “do” feminism than I do to the people who told me I SHOULD marry back in the day.

You see something you want changed, you go work on it. And shut the fuck up about lecturing everybody else about doing the job you want done.

@ Red_Locker: Up to 1500 posts!

Cue MRA response, “I know what you are, but who am I?”

It is, “I know you are but what am I?” And yes, it is the height of irony for feminists to tell anyone to “go work on it [and] shut the fuck up about lecturing everybody else about doing the job you want done” because lecturing everybody else about what they want done is essentially all feminists do. But what I truly love about that line is that it is worst advice for advocates. The only way to really make changes to be loud and get heard. Telling men’s groups to not talk about male victims is a wonderful piece of abuse apologism.

40 years ago there were shelters for men who were domestically abused, according to you,TS.

No, I never stated that. I stated that 40 years ago there were male-only services — I did not specify what kind — that feminists fought against in order to get women access to those services. However, when men’s groups do the exact same thing with female-only services, feminists suddenly cry foul.

Look, no one actually expects feminists to care about male victims or even want to help them, but you must admit is the height of irony for feminists to complain about men’s groups doing the very thing feminists do all the time.

It’s not cuz you’re a man, RevSpinnaker. It’s because you can’t do math, never heard of a woman receiving the death penalty for child murder when a two-second Google search found ten of them, and made up a story about children being thrown to pit bulls like Christians to lions.

When you lack all credibility, you don’t need a feminist conspiracy.