Here’s the entirety of a recent post by an MRA who calls himself Snark:
Uh, dude, I think you’ve confused “feminists” with “Daleks.”
Our new friend Fidelbogen thought this was such a brilliant idea he devoted a post to it himself, declaring:
Such economy, such concision. …
Really now, we wouldn’t go far wrong to make our rhetoric revolve around this above all, and very little more. The saying is deceptively simple, for it goes deep and reaches into many corners.
It puts them on the spot, and nails them there.
I knew Fidelbogen was a bit of a pompous doofus, but this is a whole new level of stupidity for him. I don’t even know what to say about something this idiotic.
Also, check out the comments to Snark’s piece. There’s something about potatoes you kind of have to see to believe.
“’No, Rev., we still don’t live in a matriarchy.’
‘But children do. And always will.’
“Bwah? Are you trying to say that children live in a different society than adults? Or are you trying to say that all children are controlled by women? Or that all children have mothers? Even those statements aren’t true, let alone the matriarchy bit! :p”
I’d vote for “all children are controlled by women” and “all/most children have mothers”, Bagelsan. I don’t think he’d still be pounding this particular drum if he wasn’t making that connection.
katz: Not sure if this will automatically give you a link. It’s the reason the Mandela’s were divorced. Among other things Mrs. Mandela was involved with the abuse, murder and cover up of young boys.
http://www.workersliberty.org/node/4634
Beware, the workers liberty is a real right wing rag.
@Molly Ren: ” Or that all children have mothers?”
No some are replicants.
And some others are human children who don’t have mothers. Weird, I know!
RevSpinnaker, you’re basically saying that mothers are the root of the worst abuse. So… how do we deal with this problem?
@Molly: Is he even saying that? His numbers don’t support that at all, and he’s failed to make any kind of point himself that I can see. I’m puzzled. :p
We’re all puzzled. I think it’s because he uses words based on meaning that he assigns them, rather than finding out what the words actually mean. So when he says stuff like “ALL children live in a matriarchy” it’s because he thinks “matriarchy” is mothers, and hasn’t bothered to learn what matriarchy actually means. In fact, has ignored the several people who have told him what matriarchy actually means.
Molly Ren: Yes that’s basically what I’ve been saying. In most instances of the worst abuse mothers are often involved. Not all and not always. Now all of a sudden I’m hearing the history of infanticide and reasons for it. I was assailed in earlier posts for stating the fact that most neonaticide occurred where there was poverty, lack of education and a single first time mother with few or no family resources.
“So… how do we deal with this problem?”
I mentioned Planned Parenthood, education and access to birth control before. Unfortunately, we have all that in America yet American women still kill more of their own children than any other mothers in the industrialized world.
We need as much public awareness for the issue of child abuse and murder as any other form of domestic violence. And feminists need to stop making excuses for maternal abuse with ivory tower platitudes about the patriarchy.
The latest findings about female child molesters and the correlation to rape is significant. If you want to stop violence against women, going to college campuses and badgering a bunch of frat-boys about how the patriarchy hurts them as much as it does women isn’t going to do a damn bit of good.
@ Amused – War of the Roses? I mean come on, how more obvious could it be that women are to blame? You see, what happened is that some lady was expecting roses, and she didn’t get them, so she used her vagina power to make every man she knew declare war on the dude who didn’t give her roses, and thus the War of the Roses began.
Rev – Dude, really, you’re trying to lecture a Brit about the history of feminism in the UK? One who did some of her university research at the Fawcett Library and had access to the source documents for some of the stuff that you’re hilariously mangling?
I suggest that you try that again in a forum where none of the commenters went to university.
Also, pro tip – I’m not an English feminist, I’m a Scottish one. If you’re as wise in the history of all things British as you’d like us to think you should be aware that a Scottish person and an English person are likely to disagree with each other just on general principle. And even so, I’m going to point out that my English brethren are not actually trying to do what you seem to think they’re trying to do.
“I mentioned Planned Parenthood, education and access to birth control before. Unfortunately, we have all that in America yet American women still kill more of their own children than any other mothers in the industrialized world.”
You think our sex ed and access to birth control is *better* than any in the industrialized world? Remember how when they almost shut down the government over wanting to defund Planned Parenthood?
Uh, ignore that extra “how”… (exhaustion is setting in…)
Toysoldier:
On what basis do you conclude that feminism as an ideology is misandrist?
* * *
So the basic argument here, I think, as best I can untangle it, is that TS was abused by his aunt; she said it was, essentially (and I’m paraphrasing, not quoting) to punish him for being male and for the things some men do to some women. Either she stated or he determined that she believed this was mandated by feminist ideology, and on that basis, TS condemns feminism.
If that’s the case, I will lay out my position: Abusing boys and punishing people for being male is not mandated by feminist ideology. Mainstream feminism condemns abuse of anyone by anyone. Feminists sometimes do bad things, but saying someone is a feminist is neither necessary nor sufficient to prove that they do bad things, and even if someone who does bad things is a feminist, that doesn’t mean all feminists do those bad things or that feminism causes or endorses those bad things. “Patriarchy is evil” is an oversimplification — pretty much any attempt to reduce a coherent philosophy to three words is doomed to oversimplify — but in any case it does not and is not intended to endorse or demand punishing individual men or boys for the unrelated actions of others.
If TS does not condemn feminism, he expresses himself extraordinarily badly.
kirbywarp: Who said the two comments were related? I simply noted the irony of feminists complaining about something they do themselves. A good example of feminist hypocrisy is the current discussion regarding whether an ideology can cause bad behavior. Another would be their treatment of me relating my experiences.
Hershele Ostropoler: I regard feminism as misandrous on the basis of the ideology holding all men collectively responsible for all social ills, blaming men for their own victimization (“Patriarchy Hurts Men Too/ rape culture), and treating males as a class of oppressors. I understand, of course, that feminists do not agree with that assessment. As for your psycho-analysis, you are way off. My aunt never stated or suggested that believes feminism mandated her to act as she did, and my criticism of feminism stems from the flaws in the ideology, not my personal experiences. And as I noted before, plenty of ideologies can cause people to behave in ways contrary to the ideologies’ doctrine. The rest your comments are nothing but straw men, however, they are quite ironic because feminists argue that because some men’s activists say bad things, that means all men’s activists say, do, or want to do bad things to women. That is an interesting double standard.
Then what were the past 1300 comments of your wanking about, exactly? You claimed your aunt abused you because feminism.
You really should stop reveling in your victimhood.
Patriarchy =/= all men. All men =/= patriarchy.
If I wanted to spend my evening going through this thread (which I don’t), I could pick out at least five instances of regular manboobz members, self-proclaimed feminists, saying to you some variation of “I believe you. I’m sorry that happened to you.”
If you had bad experiences with other self-proclaimed feminists disbelieving or dismissing your abuse, then they were assholes, and I’m sorry you went through that.
If you really want to convince feminists that you have something valid and important to say about how people treat each other, you would do much better if you used words according to their actual meanings, as most people understand them, and not according to your own, personal definitions. There are common rules in English designed to make communication more clear.
If you fuck around with the rules and become less clear, and then blame your readers for failing to understand you, you lose your argument.
And I’m pretty sure you know that, so I can only attribute bullshit like this:
regarding two sentences in the same paragraph *and therefore, according to commonly-held rules of English, related* to a conscious and deliberate attempt to obfuscate.
DAMN the html!
Toysoldier:
So to be clear, you are disavowing all the comments in which you said your aunt abused you because of feminism?
Actually, that is by definition untrue.
“The latest findings about female child molesters and the correlation to rape is significant. If you want to stop violence against women, going to college campuses and badgering a bunch of frat-boys about how the patriarchy hurts them as much as it does women isn’t going to do a damn bit of good.”
Well, maybe not if we talk about “the patriarchy”. But talking about consent and not having sex with people who are drunk and unconscious might do something, right?
Unimaginative:
I’m honestly wondering if TS has some kind of theory-of-mind issue where he doesn’t understand that people are expecting his words to have a certain amount of subtext. So he will reel off a disjointed list of statements, and then act all shocked that people are reacting to the sum of these various parts … only it’s not an act.
I have no idea if this is the case, I’m just trying to come up with some explanation of his behavior other than that he’s an asshole.
hellkell: I never claimed my aunt abused me because of feminism. Feminists made that claim and I have tried to correct them. And I am sure by “stop reveling in your victimhood” you were in no way telling me — a male survivor — to get over being abused.
Unimaginative: Unfortunately, feminists do not make any distinction between men and “patriarchy”. If I wanted to spend my day going through this thread (which I do not), I could pick out at five instances of regular manboobz members, self-procliamed feminists, saying to me some variation of “You’re lying. Feminism had nothing to do with your aunt’s behavior.” Your lecture about the meaning of words is ironic, but irrelevant as I use the given definition of words. That feminists decide twist my words is out of my control, and as I noted before, the only people who seem to misunderstand me are feminists. No one else who read my comments or my post got confused. As for your analysis of my comment, it is off. I simply chose to respond in one chunk to save space, not to confuse you. If you are unable to separate thoughts, particularly when a person uses clauses designed to do that, the problem lies with you.
Hershele Ostropoler: How can I disavow comments I never made? By definition an ideology is a group of ideas, and as such it can influence people any number of ways, including ways contrary to its doctrine. I am quite aware that feminists may act in bad faith and presume some nefarious subtext to any criticism. However, I give every feminist the benefit of doubt, even though it often proves unwise. Now, I find two things curious. One, no feminists disagrees with my actual aunt’s views. No feminist disagrees with the theory of “patriarchy” and “male privilege”, the notion that men oppress women, or the notion that changing men will get rid of male domination. Two, if you think I am so traumatized by my experiences that I hate all feminists, do you think calling me names would change my opinion of feminists for the better? Would not such treatment justify hatred?
citation needed
And the horses keep running around and around and around…
There ya go xtra, you must be new to this thread. Try the American Psychiatric Foundation or the Center for Disease Control for more detail.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonaticide
“Neonaticide StatisticsThe United States ranks first in child homicide under the age of four years. Forty-five percent (45%) of all child murders occur in the first 24 hours of life, and thus can be classified as neonaticide.”
And furthermore…
ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/162/9/1578
http://www.smh.com.au/national/sins-of-the-mother-the-tragedy-of-neonaticide-20101218-191ee.html.
cjb.sagepub.com/content/35/4/522.abstract
lib.bioinfo.pl/meid:216702
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2174580
http://www.epic.ac.uk/documents/ICSykora.pdf · PDF file
“In our research we have discovered gender-biased infanticides in contemporary
Slovakia. Newborn boys in Slovakia are three times more likely to become the victims of
infanticide after the collapse of Communism 11 years ago.”
http://www.aafp.org/afp/990315ap/1577.html
“In 1993, the U.S. Advisory Board on Child Abuse and Neglect declared a child protection emergency. Between 1985 and 1993, there was a 50 percent increase in reported cases of child abuse. Three million cases of child abuse are reported in the United States each year. Treatment of the abuser has had only limited success and child protection agencies are overwhelmed.”
I’LL REPEAT THAT LAST ONE SO YOU DON’T ALL MISS IT AGAIN… ANd AGain,,,And a…
“Between 1985 and 1993, there was a 50 percent increase in reported cases of child abuse.” WOW! And I’ve been citing statistics that only said 25%. I’m suprised you smarty-pants feminists didn’t spot that with another “gotcha.” After all, you learn all about matriarchal oppression in Women’s Studies, don’t you? You know the stats, but I guess you were all too busy calling Toysoldier profane and derogatory names.
Ohhh Grrrls just wanna have fun! You go!
There’s plenty more where those came from xtra… but what’s the point of asking for them if you’re just going to blithely and deliberately ignore them anyway?
I’ve decided that as long as reasonable people are reading TS’s comments the same way I am, I can accept that it’s neither useful or possible to get him to own anything he’s said, even when it’s quoted at him.