Here’s the entirety of a recent post by an MRA who calls himself Snark:
Uh, dude, I think you’ve confused “feminists” with “Daleks.”
Our new friend Fidelbogen thought this was such a brilliant idea he devoted a post to it himself, declaring:
Such economy, such concision. …
Really now, we wouldn’t go far wrong to make our rhetoric revolve around this above all, and very little more. The saying is deceptively simple, for it goes deep and reaches into many corners.
It puts them on the spot, and nails them there.
I knew Fidelbogen was a bit of a pompous doofus, but this is a whole new level of stupidity for him. I don’t even know what to say about something this idiotic.
Also, check out the comments to Snark’s piece. There’s something about potatoes you kind of have to see to believe.
Hmm, that comment from TS is interesting, because he repeats a bog-standard MRA complaint about false rape accusations in the third paragraph, and then in the fifth paragraph makes a rape accusation of his own! You can really see where the break in empathy occurs.
Toysoldier:
So how is “TS thinks feminism caused his abuse” a straw man? How is “TS thinks feminism is bad” a straw man?
mediumdave:
But not a false one. Unless you have some evidence you’d like to offer.
??? What are you implying, Hershele?
TS: There is no apology, because what you quoted doesn’t say what you accused me of.
Pecunium: You stated, “ What I will say is that [her] being abusive isn’t a result of feminism, no matter what she might have told you, because there is no doctrinal theory of feminism, apart from men and women deserve to be treated as equals.” does not equal me saying what, “ In your case, you argue an absolute, literally that feminism never causes bad behavior,” (which is what you accused me of doing) requires.
That statement of mine does not say feminism never causes bad behavior. It says the bad behavior you have claimed is part and parcel of feminism, isn’t.
There is a difference.
I don’t expect you to tender the apology a decent person would tender.
What are you implying, mediumdave? You seem to be contrasting his complaining about false accusations with his making an accusation. The phrasing implied you were dubious; it’s possible you were unclear or I read into your words something you didn’t realize was there.
Yes, it’s possible.
Nice try, Hershele.
Flib: As usual, your comment makes no logical sense.
mediumdave: I do not understand your point. Could you clarify what you mean?
Hershele Ostropoler: Do you know what a straw man argument is?
Pecunium: The only difference lies in the wording. You stated, “…[her] being abusive isn’t a result of feminism…” That statement implies that my aunt’s behavior was in no way influenced by feminism. You went on to state, “…no matter what she might have told you, because there is no doctrinal theory of feminism, apart from men and women deserve to be treated as equals.” That statement implies that 1) feminism has no other doctrine, which is false, and 2) that nothing in feminism could ever prompt bad behavior. In other words, feminism absolutely never causes bad behavior. Again, I accept your apology, even if you lack the integrity and intellectual honesty to offer it.
Yes, Toysoldier, I will gladly clarify my point. First of all, I do not doubt the truthfulness of your account of your childhood trauma. There is no basis for me to doubt it, and it would be heartless of me also.
But at the same time, you’ve made some glib assumptions about false rape allegations made by others. Do you not see the disconnect? If you want us to empathize with you, why can you not empathize with others who’ve suffered similar traumas? I only see you expressing sympathy for abuse survivors who are male… and I see you making excuses for abusers when they are male and their victims are female (such as in the Thomas Ball case). I don’t understand why you’d only have empathetic feelings toward one type of victim, and not another.
And yeah, I do think Hershele does understand what a straw man argument is. But his comments directed at you are not straw men. You have been making those arguments, albeit indirectly.
It implies no such thing. You said I declared feminism could never cause bad behavior, ever, at all, full stop.
I didn’t say it.
There is no apology, because I didn’t do what you said I did, even if you lack either the wit, or the wisdom, to admit it.
Well said, Pecunium! I don’t think anyone here would deny that ideologies which are mostly positive can still have negative effects on certain people. I like to use environmentalism as an analogy to feminism… I think that environmentalism is a mostly positive movement and most of the people in it are well-intentioned. But environmentalism has led certain people, such as Ted Kaczynski (the “Unabomber”), to engage in acts of violence. And there was that case of some misguided “eco-terrorists” who set fire to a housing development in California (IIRC).
People who oppose the environmental movement have sometimes used these cases to try to undermine the entire thing. For example, there was Ken Crossman‘s attempt to link Kaczynski to Al Gore. This is dishonest, of course. It’s not hard to tell the difference between the two men… Mr. Gore tries to advance the environmental cause through peaceful, legal means, while Kaczynski tried to do it by violently targeting individuals.
So I maintain that it’s not terribly hard to distinguish between someone who uses an ideology as an excuse to do evil from someone who really takes the ideology to heart and practices it.
“This is the thread that never ends! Yes it goes on and on my friends! –“
Toysoldier: And as usual, reading comprehension, you do not have it. Go frolic in the fields you liar, you could use the time off.
Curses upon you Bagelsan! I now have that song stuck in my head, and we all know that it never ends!
@amandajane5: Sorry! (But be fair, is that song really any more painful than reading Toysoldier’s stuff? ;D)
And you can dance to it!
Bagelsan, point taken. I’d much rather hear my campers sing that song for an entire three hour busride than have to read anything by Toysoldier.
Well, to be fair, Toy Soldier seems to like Justin Timberlake too. In theory one could dance to that, though personally I’d rather perforate my own eardrums with a salad fork.
The endless loop of shitty logic, however, is not very danceable.
Toysolldier seems to suffer from a really bad case of lastworditis.
I also gotta agree with mediumdave on this:
I know that many abuse survivors tend to victim blame or accuse other survivors of lying, for various reasons, but it’s still really frustrating. Especially with the double standard Toysoldier has going on in that regard.
Step by step, heart to heart…
mediumdave: What glib assumptions, lack of empathy, and excuses for male abusers are you talking about? No, I see no disconnect in expressing concern for the falsely accused. Setting aside your red herring, Hershele’s comments are straw men as the first oversimplifies my position and the second misrepresents my position. Several people here did argue that feminism could not have a negative effect on people’s behavior, most recently Snowy. I agree that it is not difficult to distinguish between someone who uses an ideology as an excuse from someone who is a true believer, yet feminists refuse to accept that this logic also applies to feminism, hence the current claim that either my aunt is not a feminist or that feminism in no way influenced her behavior.
Pecunium: Your statement clearly implies that you do not think feminism can ever cause bad behavior, but if you want to play semantics we can easily solve this dilemma with a direct question: do you think feminism can ever cause bad behavior?
Kollege Messerschmitt: I am sure you know that some abuse survivors victim blame or accuse other survivors of lying as you did that to me several times on this thread. In the future, please do not project your bad behavior onto me.
Why??? WHYYYY?????
… wut… wut iz going on here?
Toy Soldier seems to be arguing that “it is possible that feminism can be the cause of a person’s bad behavior.” Judging by other people’s responses, it looks like someone’s been doing a bit of goal-post shifting… (hint: it’s ToySoldier)
yo Toy Soldier. Let’s say I agree that feminism can possibly cause bad behavior. What are you driving at then?
(is totally not trying to make this a super epic thread… but 1,249 comments is rather awesome)
@kirbywarp
“(is totally not trying to make this a super epic thread… but 1,249 comments is rather awesome)”
A 100 comment’s by the same 12 people, spouting the same hatred. Awesome!