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Links: Jezebel on Reddit’s Jailbait drama

Jezebel’s Anna North has an interesting piece up on the return of Reddit’s ultra-skeezy Jailbait subreddit – and on the surprising number of vocal redditors who think that pedophilia ephebophilia is perfectly “natural.”

Oh, and here’s the Men’s Rights subreddit’s response to the Jezebel piece.

 

 

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Amnesia
Amnesia
10 years ago

Right, the Pussy Pass again. I keep forgetting about that.

NWOslave
NWOslave
10 years ago

@Rutee Katreya
“Statement assumes facts not in evidence.”

That would be your feminist indoctrinated fantasy again. Yes, you’re right, there is absolutely no evidence men and women think differently in the least. Such new agey stuff here. I feel so enlightened.

Holly Pervocracy
Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

According to the rules of women, your rules, she can wear nothing at all and it is appropriate.

No, I specified she should cover her nipples and genitalia.

And I’ll go further, since it’s scouts and all and that’s probably not the best setting for pushing societal limits–it would be best if she covered her midriff and buttocks for this. I’d say that a tank top and shorts would be appropriate for summertime outdoor Scouting, though.

Do you agree, do you feel this is too slutty, or would you rather rage and rage than take the huge ego risk of agreeing with anything?

ozymandias42
10 years ago

Aaaaaaaaaand we’re on the “fake conversion” stage. God, I love NWO. He’s like a sitcom.

Shaenon! There’s another one for the Book of Larnin’.

NWOslave
NWOslave
10 years ago

@Sharculese

And lizards! Don’t forget the lizards.

Holly Pervocracy
Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

I should point out that covering the midriff and buttocks is about societal conventions, and not about avoiding inflaming men’s passions. I’m worried that if she wears less than a tank top and shorts the Scouts (or, MUCH more likely, their parents) will be offended, not that they’ll be thrown into a sexual rage.

NWOslave
NWOslave
10 years ago

@Holly Pervocracy
“Do you agree, do you feel this is too slutty, or would you rather rage and rage than take the huge ego risk of agreeing with anything?”

My agreement or approval means nothing, remember. No man can tell any woman how to act, what to wear, or anything at all.

Man, I forgot how rigid feminist fantasy was. But I gotta go. Lizards, flounce, illuminatti, elephants, bankers, rapey, creepy, misogyny, slavey, subbie, owlslave, book of larnin’

ozymandias42
10 years ago

No, NWO, no PEOPLE can tell PEOPLE what to wear, with the exception of health codes, employment or school dress codes, indecent exposure laws, etc. It works both ways!

darksidecat
10 years ago

Okay, so NWO simultaneously believes that lesbians are out their seducing teen girls to hog all the good teen pussy for themselves, while believing that women could only ever dress to attract men?

On another note, Brandon, Scarlett Johansson is 26, not 14. Adult men who Scarlett is willing to have sex with can legally have sex with her. This has been true in the bulk of the US for about a decade (the age of consent in the US varies, but averages between 16-18 for sex with adults). It is not really relevant for the purposes of this coversations whether your gross overgeneralizations about men and who they are attracted to is true or not, because the examples you provided are people well over the legal age.

Holly Pervocracy
Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

NWO is such a fucking coward.

For all his bluster of being a big tough man who will be proven right someday, when you get down to brass tacks he’s afraid to even disagree too specifically.

If this is what we’re facing in the gender wars, I think we (and by this I mean women plus the like 99% of men who aren’t part of the MRA’s silly game) wouldn’t have too much trouble. We’d just have to bring our very sternest mean words.

Bostonian
Bostonian
10 years ago

NWO, a nasty, creepy old bastard for the ages!

Also, you were the idiot who brought up Illuminati in the first place, and you forgot the Rothschilds.

Aloren
Aloren
10 years ago

I don’t know it a tricky line. If the person is at a distance then yes it’s easy to ignore but if that person walks up close to you and says things that make you feel uncomfortable then no… No other way to see that as other than harassment if it’s unwanted. It happens to people no matter what they wear so why live in fear and dress in a way to prevent it when you really can’t if thy person is out of control enough to do that to anyone.

Belive me in certain circumstances verbal abuse and harassment does cause fear and feel horrible. I used to work as a corrections officer in Texas state prisons. We are dressed in long sleeves, long pants and the uniforms are not made to fit well. Also women who work as officers had the option(or not) to wear a apron type over cover we called a smock(to further hide any of your female shape). It did not matter one wit not a damn the prisoners would still verbally abuse and harass you all day. It was part of the job and if we could see who we could write them up and they would lose commissary or rec time. Half the time we had to disrguard it just to get our jobs done but certain harrasments like exposing themselves or threating to physically assault employees would be punished with a lengthened sentence.

Anyway the point is not to say that I felt harassed I did but it came with the job and you had to grow tough or go home. But it was to point out That no matter what you wear or how covered you are people who will harass others will do it anyway.

I have seen the worst of men but yet do not see every one of them as potential abussers or rapists and I dont understand the MRM as seeing all women as sluts and bad people. :/

Sharculese
10 years ago

http://www.reddit.com/user/LordVorbis

i am not normally a boat-getter-offer-of, but i made the mistake of looking at the pictures he was commenting on and O_o

Pecunium
10 years ago

Again NWO has lied to us. He said that if we answered his question, he would answer the same question.

But he hasn’t. I think he’s afraid. Perhaps he’s afraid we will see how right he is, and the women who prance about in transparent clothes, because they want to arouse him will end, and he will have to live in a world where not only to the women not pay attention to him, they aren’t fun to look at any more.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

“‘Why not show up wearing a see-thru top, micro-skirt and pantyless the next time you visit dead old dad.’

“Dude, where do you live if you see women dressed like this on a regular basis? Do you live in a porn video?”

My theory is that he lives near a strip club, or perhaps a nude beach.

NWOslave, have you ever seen a woman wearing pants and a long sleeved top?

Shaenon
10 years ago

Dude, where do you live if you see women dressed like this on a regular basis? Do you live in a porn video?

I keep asking him this, and no answer!

NWO, I’m pretty sure my dad knows I’ve had sex. I’ve been married for seven years, after all. And I have to say–he’s an old-fashioned guy in a lot of ways, but when I started dating he never pried into my love life or seemed bothered that I might be sexually active (which I wasn’t, most of the time). He definitely never acted like he “owned my sexuality.” Which was good, because he didn’t.

Thanks for the fashion tips, but I don’t think anybody wants to see me in a see-through top. All the pudge goes right to my gut, it ain’t pretty.

Why not show up wearing a see-thru top, micro-skirt and pantyless the next time you visit dead old dad.

I don’t think even that outfit would get a response out of a dead old dad.

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@darksidecat: Fine, replace Scarlett with Saiorse Ronan or Abigail Breslin.

Also, it wasn’t an over-generalization but simple averages. If I walk up to 1000 straight men, show them two photos of one younger and one older female celebrity and ask them which one is more attractive. I could bet money on picking the younger one. That doesn’t mean that the older one is not attractive, just not as attractive as the younger one.

I am not even “Stacking the deck”. I didn’t pick some older woman that most would say is unattractive (say Rosie O). I picked a former supermodel.

The point being is that when comparing young vs old…young will win much more than old.

I was also making the comment towards Sharculese’s comment:
@pecunium, dont forget: the male sex drive is calibrated towards young, nubile virgins, women are used up by 25, etc. etc.

While I disagree with the idea of “women are used up by 25”, younger women will generally get much more attention from straight men than older women. Also, there are lots of men that place value on women that have had fewer partners. Some do, some don’t. It doesn’t really matter anymore since finding a female virgin in the states is like finding a needle in a haystack.
.

Comrade Svilova
10 years ago

Ah, men and women think differently. Lesbians can find women attractive but still handle themselves. Straight men, on the other hand, have no such self-control/maturity.

This is really the claim you want to make? How misandric of you!

Spearhafoc
10 years ago

NWOslave, answer the fucking question!

WHAT SHOULD WOMEN WEAR?!

Not a smarmy “Oh, you think women should be allowed to wear nothing to a cub scouts meeting.”

Actually answer the question. What is appropriate dress for women? What clothing is appropriate? What clothing doesn’t sexually excite you?

Also, answer it with a positive. What clothing should they wear, not what clothing they shouldn’t wear.

Can you post a picture of a woman (say, a celebrity from the Golden age of Hollywood, for exaple)?

Who else is in favour of encouraging Dave to put NWOslave on moderation until he actually answers the question?

Spearhafoc
10 years ago

*example

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Well, we can all go now, Brandon Has Spoken.

kilo
kilo
10 years ago

Alright, I’ll be contrarian here.

I’m not really affected by this myself; the closer to my age a woman is, the more I tend to be attracted to her (hot is good, interesting is much better). But I think the discussion in the article and here is flawed.

First, the claim about the power imbalance. In the abstract, that’s a very good point. However, I’d argue that in many ways, these people are closer to the 15 year old mentally than to a woman their own age. The power imbalance would just exist in the other direction, with similar consequences. It may well be a form of mental self-defense.

And it’s usually not the case that young girls are terribly interested in dating much older guys, so the practical impact is not that big.

More importantly, I don’t think most of them actually want to date 15 year olds. It’s a kink. I think the vast majority of people who read incest erotica want to fuck their own family¹, and similarly people with nonconsent fantasies don’t really want to rape or be raped. It just turns them on to think about it. I’d guess most of them have little to no experience with young puppy love and teen sexuality; that’s a hole they close through fantasy. You can be young again yourself, and this time luck is on your side and you get to experience the good stuff. And it has the stimulating air of illegality (“jailbait”) without actually being so (according to the article, it’s pictures of clothed girls²).

If someone thinks that fifteen year old girls are cute and wants to look at pictures of them, what right do I have to tell them their kink is creepy and wrong and mine is right?

There’s two issues beyond the reddit itself. One is the age of consent; I don’t really have an opinion here. It’s a case of sorites, as most age limits are. It’s clear that a limit is necessary but there does not seem to be a good natural one. Different countries and states have different laws, and most of them seem as valid as the next. If someone has good arguments in favor of one particular limit he or she should be able to lobby for them; and if the arguments are bad they won’t convince enough people to achieve anything (at least I’d hope so…)

Then, of course it’s horrible when young girls are harassed, molested, or raped. Or even just have their picture taken in ways that harm them. But they’re bad when it happens to anyone. The myth of male weakness is wrong; a man finding someone attractive does not mean that he is forced to hurt her or have no respect for her as a human being. And if he does, that action is the problem, not the attraction.

¹ I think I read somewhere that most siscon people don’t even have a sister, but I might remember it wrong
² alright, I’ll admit it, I stumbled onto that reddit once a year or so ago. Don’t really remember any of it, as it’s not my thing, but if I remember correctly it was very tame. There’s heavier stuff in teen magazines where I live. Of course that may have changed since then.

Holly Pervocracy
Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

Kilo – However, I’d argue that in many ways, these people are closer to the 15 year old mentally than to a woman their own age. The power imbalance would just exist in the other direction, with similar consequences.
The adult still is a lot more likely to have discretionary income, a place of their own, a car, no school/homework obligations, and to not be in a role that requires them to be subordinate to adults (teachers and parents) and treat them as authorities because of their adulthood. They can buy alcohol and porn, aren’t subject to curfew laws, and are treated as an adult by others. Regardless of their mentality, they still have a lot more power in the world than a 15-year-old does.

As for “it’s okay to look but not touch,” I sort of agree with that, but I still think it’s skeevy. Not unethical in itself, but freaky as hell and definitely open to criticism.

Pecunium
10 years ago

kilo: First, the claim about the power imbalance. In the abstract, that’s a very good point. However, I’d argue that in many ways, these people are closer to the 15 year old mentally than to a woman their own age.

This isn’t abstract. An immature 25 year-old has things the 15 year old doesn’t. Money, car, apartment, experience, and the cachet which comes of being “older”.

kilo
kilo
10 years ago

Holly,

Regardless of their mentality, they still have a lot more power in the world than a 15-year-old does.

I fully agree. But that does not mean that their intent is malicious. I’d assume in many cases women dating less desirable men are likely to get away with abusive behavior for quite some time¹, but I don’t think it’s right to say that all women dating a less desirable man do it to abuse.

Regarding the skeeviness, that is or was my inuitive response too, but I don’t think it’s right to trust them without analysis.

¹ see for example BethA’s comment here: http://geekfeminism.org/2011/09/04/geeks-as-bullied-and-bullies/

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
10 years ago

So this is sort of funny and on topic: the most recent occasion of a man speaking to me inappropriately occurred just this past Sunday. In my home. I was working an all day event and my sister was at our house (we just moved!) waiting for the cable guy to come and install our service. I walk in, after a 10 hour day, dressed in business attire, she comes to the door and says, quite tersely, “Cable guy’s here” and walks away. I follow, getting ready to ask her what’s wrong but I can barely get the question out before the problem makes its self known.

The tech had been flirting with her aggressively pretty much since his arrival. Her outfit? A baggy tshirt and sweats complete with head scarf and sneakers. As soon as he came up from the basement he greeted her with a “Just finishing up here doll baby. Where’d you say you worked again?”

“I didn’t”‘she replied before putting her head phones back in and returning to her computer.

He looked at me and started right in with the same bullshit. Inappropriate after inappropriate comment. I asked him if he was done in a stern manner and he told me he needed to get his ladder. I followed him upstairs to where he’d placed the ladder for roof access and placed my bag on my desk.

“Oh, this must be your bedroom. Your bed is nice. Real soft. I bet your man loves it. I rolled around in it.”

Direct. Fucking. Quote.

I told him that he needed to leave. He gathered his equipment; I locked the door behind him. I asked my sister of it had been like that the entire time. Too long story short, it had. So I called customer service to report him.

The next day I received a call from his dispatcher, a woman actually, as follow up to the incident report. She was pretty disgusted by the time I got to the part about my bed.

“I tell these guys all the time ‘You are there to install cable. Period.’ and they just don’t listen.”

I wonder what my sister and I did wrong.’being in our own home? Or having the audacity to order cable?

Molly Ren
10 years ago

Kilo, what do you mean by “less desirable men”?

kilo
kilo
10 years ago

Pecunium, rereading that part, my formulation of the whole paragraph was very poor. Of course it’s still true in concrete cases. My point would be more that (especially from the the 25-year old’s point of view) the power distribution is not necessarily quite as unbalanced as it would seem to be in the abstract; the imbalance itself is certainly still there and has important consequences.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Nobinayamu, the hell with the dispatch, call/write corporate HQ. That is some bullshit.

Pecunium
10 years ago

I don’t care about, “malice”. I care about the inability of the 15 year old to make an informed decision.

I’m not willing to grant, as a blanket, that there is no ill-intent in the “15 year olds want to fuck me” crowd in any case.

kilo
kilo
10 years ago

Molly Ren,

I think the link explained the situation I mean best (search for the comment by BethA, the relevant part is the third to last paragraph). To be a bit more concrete, I mean who view themselves as less desirable, and thus that ending their relationship would force them into (likely permanent) loneliness.

kitten parade
kitten parade
10 years ago

I hate it when these men explain their attraction to young teenage girls by implying that it is natural because women under 18 are more fertile. The peak age of fertility is 24. Girls under the age of 18 are more likely to give birth to low weight, pre-term babies. It wasn’t even until the 20th century with improved nutrition that girls reached menarche in their early teens. So they can’t explain their creepiness with evolutionary biology, which seems to be a favorite for some.

kilo
kilo
10 years ago

Pecunium,
fair point. I don’t want to argue that such a relationship would not be bad. But I don’t see how a relationship with a sixteen-year old, or even an eighteen-year old, would not have the same problem, at best to a slightly lesser degree.

And I’m certainly not arguing about blankets. Of course a good number of them are likely to be horrible, vile people. I’m arguing against the idea that they necessarily are.

darksidecat
10 years ago

Brandon, don’t project your creeping on 15 year olds on the rest of us. Then again, how old are you? If you are like 17, it isn’t a surprise that 15 year olds might be more in your age range than 50 year olds. However, this is not the issue under discussion (young people dating young people, older people dating older people), but rather a projection on all men (and others attracted to women, presumably, though evopsych pseudoscience nonsense can’t seem to wrap its head around queerness) about age based attractions. Still, I am 22 and would take a grown woman over either or those little girls you named. Not just personality issue wise and consent wise (though both are important), but also looks wise-people who look 12 just aren’t sexy.

Also, this woman is 41 in this photo

http://www.moviesnobs.net/images/over_40/halle_berry.jpg

43

http://www.moviesnobs.net/images/over_40/sandra_bullock.jpg

I have a teenage sister, her friends and classmates are not sexy women, they are awkward little girls, by and large (the same principle applies to teen boys vs adult men). I would much rather go after Joan Jett who is almost 50 than a bunch of little girls.

darksidecat
10 years ago

Oh, and every woman on this list is 40+ http://www.listal.com/list/the-old-women-list

Yeah, I don’t know why you think teenage girls are sexy than women (unless you are, as I suspect, a teenager yourself), but I certainly do not share the sentiment. There are far more women who are thirty who I find sexy than girls under 18.

Seraph
Seraph
10 years ago

Wow. NWOSlave is really bothered by the idea that some women might escape their just punishment for going around and lookin’ sexy, isn’t he?

Matthew Cline
Matthew Cline
10 years ago

If a man gets sexually excited/frustrated by the way a woman dresses it’s his problem, right?

I’m a man and I’ve never been sexually frustrated by seeing women in skimpy clothing. I simply enjoy view.

Pecunium
10 years ago

kilo: We’ve gone over this ground a lot. There is no good place to draw the bright line, but it has to be drawn. Are there 15 year olds who can make that call…? Sure.

Are they the significant majority? No. I grew up in Calif., where the line is 18. It’s problematic because we don’t have an age clause, so the vast majority of minors break the law. A fair number of them break it with people who could go to jail for it (I did).

But I am not sure 16 is the right point to move it down to. Why? Because the risks are disuasive to a lot of people. I was 17 when I first let someone break the law with me. By 17 I don’t think I was at risk (and my parents were attentive enough that my being exploited wasn’t likely to happen).

The line has to be drawn somewhere, and what I see from the
“pro-sex with less than 16 year olds” crowd doesn’t make me think they are playing honestly.

Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
10 years ago

You’re a woman, you don’t think like a man, so any thoughts you have on the subject can only relate to how a woman thinks.

Benjamin Lee Whorf called, he and Sapir want their hypothesis back.

Disclaimer: I done read some books one time

Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

@Matthew Cline,

I’m a man and I’ve never been sexually frustrated by seeing women in skimpy clothing. I simply enjoy view.

Word. It’s guys like NWO who ruin it for the rest of us–men as well as women. My wife won’t go out jogging where anyone can see her because she doesn’t want to be harassed. And she’s not out to titillate anyone, she just wants to fucking run.

So, yeah, fuck you NWO, and anyone like you. You are a miserable person whose only ambition in life is to make everyone else as miserable as you. What a sorry sack you are.

Sharculese
10 years ago

Brandon, don’t project your creeping on 15 year olds on the rest of us. Then again, how old are you?

hes almost 30

Hershele Ostropoler
10 years ago

Brandon:

If you showed a picture of Scarlett Johansson and say Christy Brinkley to a bunch of random straight men and asked them which one was more attractive…I would bet money the average would be higher for Scarlett.

How do you control for the misguided souls who would choose Johansson even over a picture of Brinkley at the same age?

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

NWO, are you forced to wear what you wear outside the workplace or something? o_O

katz
10 years ago

Also, it wasn’t an over-generalization but simple averages. If I walk up to 1000 straight men, show them two photos of one younger and one older female celebrity and ask them which one is more attractive. I could bet money on picking the younger one. That doesn’t mean that the older one is not attractive, just not as attractive as the younger one.

I am not even “Stacking the deck”. I didn’t pick some older woman that most would say is unattractive (say Rosie O). I picked a former supermodel.

So I’m not a statistician or anything, but shouldn’t a study involve, I don’t know, data?

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

Or at least Lore.

OSHIII
OSHIII
10 years ago

Brandon, you can talk about who you think people would find more physically attractive until your face turns blue and falls off, but that won’t make your opinions fact. And it won’t make me stop wondering what’s wrong with you that you seriously want to go after young teen girls, if for no other reason than young teen girls are very often some degree of godawful, self-centered, immature, irritating-beyond-words people, and some don’t even begin to grow out of it until well into their college years. I couldn’t care less how attractive a young woman in her teens might be, all I think of when one of you guys starts on about them is how you’d have to be fucking deranged, or have the same mentality, or just assume that you’ll be training them to speak on command on subjects you’ve picked out — or that you just haven’t a fucking clue.

Seraph
Seraph
10 years ago

OK, thread’s over, Ami just won.

Sharculese
10 years ago

Brandon, you can talk about who you think people would find more physically attractive until your face turns blue and falls off, but that won’t make your opinions fact.

you must not understand. fact is a term that only exists relative to How Things Affect Brandon.

self-centered, immature

nevermind, i see you two have already met.

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@OSHIII: Who said I was interested in “going after young girls”? I am talking about general attractiveness not my own personal list of what I look for in a woman.

I also agree with your reasons why teen girls are irritating and self-centered. I often can’t stand spending 5 minutes around my teen cousins. However, I didn’t bring up personality or character traits…but physical attractiveness. This can be judged without a word spoken.

What is deranged by having the thought that women are the most attractive around peak fertility which ranges from puberty to their late 20’s? You don’t need some Harvard study to understand that on average, younger women are viewed as more attractive than older women.