Ladies! You may think you’ve got the men of the world fooled, but the guys over on MGTOWforums.com can see right through you! As dontmarry puts it:
Everything that a woman does is deceitful. From makeup, push-up bras and high heels, to fibbing about her dick count or proclamations of ‘I don’t mind marrying a poor man’ (oh yes you do).
That’s right, ladies! We know those eyelashes aren’t real! We know your cheeks aren’t really that rosy! And your lips aren’t really that red! And your boobies aren’t really … um, what was I saying? I got distracted thinking about boobies. Anyway, you’re all a bunch of liars! I bet some of you even wear Spanx, which are a tool of Satan.
Also, that thing he said about the dick count. Stop the lies! We demand dick count accuracy!
Crap: “The women they are being assholes to should just suck it up”.
Hengist:
Your experiences of what? Because the experiences of women you know aren’t your experiences.
Hengist:
I thought you were a man? Because if you are, I’m not sure what relevant personal experience you have.
Hengist:
Wait … which side of the street harassment have you been on?
I mean, he keeps talking about “his experiences.” I wonder if Hengist lives in so post-patriarchal a society that one’s (perceived) gender comes up not at all in one’s day-to-day life.
That would certainly explain why he seems to see feminism as an enemy.
No. *sniff* 🙁
And he found my facebook and contact information and everything. So he could have easily called me up.
I have a place with insurance wavers and an impartial referee and everything.
Hy iz ah sad Jager. :'(
cynickal: Maybe that explains it… perhaps he is extrapolating from his personal experience.
I read that. Hengist, you should read this reply:
yaledailynews.com/news/2011/sep/22/orazem-rape-is-real-at-yale/
It’s about Yale but can apply to other places as well.
I used to be harassed with insane frequency, every time I stepped out of my apartment back in my younger days. Most of it wasn’t that vulgar, luckily, but it was still upsetting. Strange men would approach me to tell me I was sexy or beautiful, would stop their cars and ask me to get in, would ask me on dates and hassle or follow me after I said ‘no’, they would ask to photograph me, or offer me “modeling” work. However, even “polite” harassment was disturbing. Sometimes, I’d be walking through a quiet neighborhood and a man would get out of his car to approach me. There was always the fear of being overpowered, and, no, I didn’t have a cell phone. And there were men who got angry when I ignored them. I was grabbed several times. I was groped. I was followed on public transportation. I was followed to my car. It went on and on. This was in my early twenties.
The harassment in my teens was the vulgar sort. Men would approach to ask if I was a virgin. They made crude comments on my body. They walked right up to me on the street and said “I want to fuck you.” It’s astonishing how the crudest language is reserved for the youngest girls.
Now I live in a city that is better than most when it comes to harassment. The stuff I get is usually too minor to phase me much. Honks, some fool hanging out of his car, “nice tits”, guys walking up to say “you’re beautiful” then veering away. And lots of staring. But I still kind of anticipate street harassment, and cringe from it before it happens. In a way, my psyche feels permanently marked from many many years of not being able to go anywhere without being approached in an unwelcome way by men.
I have to add that the “snappy comeback” method to quell harassment is likely ineffectual. Some men retaliate with little provocation. Twice, I’ve had incidents in which I have ignored a man who was harassing me and was then grabbed and shaken around. I guess this was “punishment” for not swooning at the feet of these Romeos.
The just be “smart-assed back” helpful hint frosts my ass because rarely can you think of one while you’re being harassed and belittled, plus, you don’t know how the big man who thinks it’s cool to say ugly shit to women he doesn’t know is going to react.
Oh, malcontent, stop being so overly sensitive!
/snark
Seriously, that sounds awful. I’m sorry you had, and still have, to go through that.
Henceforth, when asked for a definition of “mansplaining” I will reference this thread. Hengist’s thoughts on street harassment are a perfect example of this phenomenon, since his “experience,” such as it is, supposedly trumps the experience of women (and men) who have actually been harassed.
Hengist’s clearly not a person who has ever spent a second thinking about “Should I take the express bus home, even though I’ll have to wait for it in front of that construction site where I know I’ll get harassed or just take the local which has a safer waiting spot but takes 20 extra minutes?”
Some days the local is the better choice for your mental health.
I am relieved, though, no MRA’s tried to say street harassment is flattering. Sometimes assholes will try to say it’s really a compliment if someone yells “Nice ass!” from the window of their truck, as if you will respond, “Why thank you for your kind words. I work out”. If you’re past a certain age and you complain about street harassment, they also might claim you’re jealous you’re not getting harassed as much as you did when you were younger. It all comes down to some assholes don’t want women to ever complain about street harassment. We’re expected to just tolerate more and more and if we ever do complain, then we’re the ones at fault.
Also, going back to what you said before: If gang-raping a woman is being used as a male-bonding ritual, does it mean it’s not rape anymore? Should the woman just not notice it?
Don’t be silly! She should come up with a witty comeback!
Seriously, I’m supposed to be okay with somebody treating me like crap so he can enjoy “bonding” with his friends? I should just be happy knowing that those slurs he yelled at me from his car helped deepen his friendships and make his day a little brighter? That pisses me off even more! Fuck that guy!
There’s my witty comeback. Fuck that guy!
I am relieved, though, no MRA’s tried to say street harassment is flattering.
I get the impression that Hengist does think it’s flattering. He keeps saying that women wouldn’t mind being harassed if it weren’t for all that feminist indoctrination, so I think we’re supposed to either be flattered or just magically not notice it at all.
“Seriously, I’m supposed to be okay with somebody treating me like crap so he can enjoy “bonding” with his friends? I should just be happy knowing that those slurs he yelled at me from his car helped deepen his friendships and make his day a little brighter?”
I know, right? The belief that it is acceptable for men to bond by degrading women — it’s the essence of that very rape culture that guys like Hengist say doesn’t exist. Apart from the fact that the whole “male bonding” argument is pure bullshit, even assuming it were true, for argument’s sake — so what? A bonding ritual that revolves around violating other people’s boundaries is not its own justification. A friendship that’s founded on dehumanizing others is entitled to no respect. What kind of people are these that engage in conduct so revolting as a way of developing their relationships, and why should their warped and violent interests take precedent over others’ safety and peace of mind? I see no reason for that whatsoever. If some guys do this, they “need” it like serial killers need to kill. My advice to them is to find some other way to “bond”.
The twisted logic required to think “people who say they get harassed are dismissing the experiences of people who don’t get harassed” boggles the mind. Of course you determine whether something is a problem based on the people that it’s a problem for, not the people that it isn’t a problem for.
Does he think wheelchair ramps are dismissing the experiences of people who can climb stairs? Does he think a class marking people absent is dismissing the experiences of all the students who aren’t absent?
I notice that one of the MRA refrains is that female strangers do not respond with wilting gratitude to every smile and wink. I do aim to be civil, but I also must be self-protective. So, when I’m out at the grocery store, and a man catches my eye and smiles, I might respond naturally. Or I might just pretend not to see him. It’s not that I think every man who smiles at me is a creeper, but I’ve had too many experiences with men who took minimal politeness as provocation to harass, touch, or follow me. And I’m not sure how I am supposed to respond to an actual leer expect by ignoring it?
I appreciate the empathetic response to my (limited) list of negative experiences. Harassment is so ubiquitous that it feels self-indulgent to even acknowledge that these things happen and that they have an effect.
Bigots often bond with other bigots by exercising bigotry and harassment. That does not make such things okay.
I’ll respond to this before the male-bonding line gets me really angry again…
malcontent, I agree that there is no good way to respond to a leer or other types of harassment. If you ignore it, they might escalate their behavior to force you to pay attention to them. If you act annoyed, they’ll be happy they pushed your buttons and will tease you to make you madder. If you act hostile, they’ll say something like “I’m only messing around. What’s your problem?” I think harassers want to set up the rules so the only way to respond is to just let it happen without complaint. It might also be a way to test women to see how much they’ll push back against unwanted contact. That’s one of the main reasons I think it’s so threatening.
It’s been my experience, as a guy who’s been hassled on the street kind of a lot (mostly for my appearance and/or the way I dress) throughout the course of my life, that when you try to turn it around on people and embarrass them, harassers tend to escalate their harassment to save face, especially those who are showing off for their friends.
Ignoring people tends to make them less likely to up the level of aggression, sure, but it’s not even close to a guaranteed fix. Especially if you’re in a situation where you can’t walk away. (Note that I am only speaking of patterns I’ve observed from personal experience. I can’t speak for anyone else.)
But let’s say ignoring it does work on a specific occasion. What then? What if it keeps happening? Shrugging your shoulders or laughing it off does nothing to solve the larger problem. And brushing people off who speak out about it as “overly sensitive” basically amounts to tacit support of bullying.
The lesson I derive from this thread is that there’s really no way to simply brush off someone determined to mess with you. The only real defenses are being able to flee, physically defending oneself, and changing culture to de-legitimize certain behaviors.
Hey, Hengist, stop legitimizing assholes.
Thanks Malcontent for writing about your experiences. But I’d add that harassment is NOT ubiquitous–I’ve faced widely varying levels of it over the years, varying mostly by city and culture. Some towns and cities I get nothing, (Winnipeg, other western and mid-western cities), or very little, other places I get more openly expressed admiration, (Montreal), and some places I had to turn around and go get full-coverage clothing because of a half dozen comments in one block (Paris, Italy). I think it’s cultural, and maybe also depends on the size of the city. But seriously, harassment doesn’t have to be part of daily life, and it’s not self-indulgent to want to live a life without its daily undercurrent of threat.
Holy crap, this just happened to me! I went out to lunch just now, and on my way back I passed a couple of guys drinkin’ outside the dollar store. As I walked by, one of them said something like, “Hey, baby.” I smiled and nodded politely (I smile a lot, what can I say), but apparently this wasn’t enough, because they immediately started angrily yelling at me to stop and talk to them. I had my headphones on so I couldn’t hear everything, but I definitely got a, “Where do you think you’re going?” and, after I had already crossed the street, one guy hollering, “MY BUDDY WANTS TO TALK TO YOU, BITCH!”
At that point I finally turned around to look at them–more out of curiosity than anger, because I had no idea what I had done to send them from zero to asshole in ten seconds. They looked away and pretended they didn’t see me. Which, come to think of it, was pretty much the same thing that happened the last time I was harassed that aggressively, when a guy walked up behind me on the street and grabbed my ass.
Damn my feminist indoctrination! If only it weren’t for feminism, I never would’ve noticed those guys! My delicate shell-like ears would have been too refined to hear angry hollers! Oh, well; at least I provided them with a touching opportunity to bond, so my day wasn’t wasted.
And I was probably asking for it with that baggy T-shirt and jeans I was wearing. The T-shirt had a big stain on it from where I’d spilled Coke on myself during lunch, so I was looking fiiiine.
@ Captain Bathrobe
Sorry! My “you’s” were directed at Hengist, not you. I should have been clearer!