Ladies! You may think you’ve got the men of the world fooled, but the guys over on MGTOWforums.com can see right through you! As dontmarry puts it:
Everything that a woman does is deceitful. From makeup, push-up bras and high heels, to fibbing about her dick count or proclamations of ‘I don’t mind marrying a poor man’ (oh yes you do).
That’s right, ladies! We know those eyelashes aren’t real! We know your cheeks aren’t really that rosy! And your lips aren’t really that red! And your boobies aren’t really … um, what was I saying? I got distracted thinking about boobies. Anyway, you’re all a bunch of liars! I bet some of you even wear Spanx, which are a tool of Satan.
Also, that thing he said about the dick count. Stop the lies! We demand dick count accuracy!
What, you want wank material now?
Hengist, I don’t know if you’ve tried this, but I would suggest that you try asking the women you know about their experience of street harassment, and then really listening to what they have to say. People don’t usually volunteer to talk about experiences that have been frightening or humiliating unless they think they will be believed and listened to. Just because nobody has told you about it, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.
CB: Hengist seems willing to stipulate that, if the women are willing to agree with him that being bothered by random people yelling, “I wan to lick your pussy”, or saying, “you’ve got lips that were meant for sucking dick” is being oversensitive.
They should also remember that, when it’s a group of men doing it, it’s not personal, it’s a bonding ritual, all in good fun (which is why they are being all girly, when they get offended; all those hormones, or something, making them overreact). They should just come up with a witty quip as a response, because we all know how much men enjoy being mad to look like fools in front of the buddies they are bonding with, esp. when it’s a spunky girl putting them in their place.
Nothing to worry about at all, just boys being boys.
Seriously, guys, putting aside the legal issues, can’t we at least agree that harassing women is a shitty thing to do? That no amount of supposed bonding with our buds justifies humiliating or frightening other human beings who have done nothing to harm us? Can’t we all agree that people who continue to harass others even after this has been explained to them are, well, assholes?
Yes.
Hengist: So, now it’s not about male bonding, but consequences? What would you know about consequences? A single instance of catcalling may not have terrible consequences*, but systemic trivializing and endorsement of such behavior does. Yes, an instance of catcalling is not the equivalent of rape, but the attitude that you are advocating — that the sexual degradation of women is just harmless fun, that women’s feelings about being degraded have no value, and that women are to blame for attracting the attention of those who degrade them in the first place — leads to society (including judges and juries) having a much higher tolerance for rape and other forms of sexual assault.
*That’s assuming it’s street catcalling we are talking about. Sexual harassment in the office? Sure, go ahead, ignore the pinches and the catcalls. How about excrement or semen-stained tissues in your desk drawer? Good luck ignoring or “laughing off” something that will sabotage your work, turn your every day into hell, and ultimately force you to leave, setting your career back a decade. But hey, the important thing is not to feel like a victim, right?
Pecunium: Are you implying that most verbal harassers are willing to get physical if confronted? This very much contradicts my experiences again, but maybe you’ve got some documentation? Personally, it just seems like more of that “men are violent beasts, men are predators” feminist rhetoric you all love so much.
Hengist, then what’s the problem here? Why are you setting yourself up as the arbiter of who is and is not oversensitive? If women perceive it as being frightening and humiliating–and all available evidence suggest that the overwhelming majority do–then maybe the focus should be on getting men to stop, rather than explaining to women that they are being too sensitive? Why apologize for this kind of behavior?
Men who harass women are assholes. Women shouldn’t have to put up with it. We can differ as to the solution, but trying to justify it in the name of male bonding seems a bit reprehensible. Is that what you are trying to do?
Sexual harassment in the office? Sure, go ahead, ignore the pinches and the catcalls. How about excrement or semen-stained tissues in your desk drawer?
That’s a common thing at your workplace, is it?
You should read this article. It’s about Yale, but can apply to other places as well.
Pecunium, would you deny Hengist the use of his only argument?
I mean without material fallacies, where would he be?
He might actually have to educate himself enough to use verbal fallacies.
I don’t like being lied about and I don’t like being misquoted. You were asked to provide evidence via quotes that anyone on this thread had claimed that all men are harassers. I have never said such a thing and the quote of mine that you produced does not make that claim.
It’s the lying that makes it not count.
What you’re doing right here? Serious movement of goalposts. As to your question, yes, it can be a problem. The seriousness depends on the incident in question. Personally, I’m not really one to get upset over a random “Nice ass” or “Nice tits” or “Why don’t you smile pretty lady?” because that shit is background noise at this point. I’ve spent my entire life in cities. But some men will really take it to the hoop and, in those instances, yes it’s a serious problem.
A good friend of mine, a guy friend, joked that it was my “walking around female-tax” and that I should consider it payment for never having to wait in line at the mechanic’s. Of course, he was joking.
Why? To what end?
“Big surprise there. “Come on, provide quotes!” “Nuh-uh, those don’t count!”
Big surprise there, you provided quotes that did not say what you claimed they said.
Ok, but you do see it as a serious and ever-present problem in your life, right?
Compared to what, cancer? It’s a problem. And it’s pretty much constant. Just because it’s not the absolute worst thing that ever happened to me doesn’t mean it’s negligible.
Seriously, guys, putting aside the legal issues, can’t we at least agree that harassing women is a shitty thing to do? That no amount of supposed bonding with our buds justifies humiliating or frightening other human beings who have done nothing to harm us? Can’t we all agree that people who continue to harass others even after this has been explained to them are, well, assholes?
Signal boosting.
This is where you’re going to take your stand? This is the hill you want to defend? That street harassment is totally fine and not a problem — unless women get upset about it, and then it’s TERRIBLE for women to be so SENSITIVE? This is the kind of behavior you want to support?
Maybe the problem is that you’re not fucking sensitive ENOUGH.
Hengist: The author of this article deliberately misinterprets the term “rape culture”. It also has nothing to do with office harassment that I described.
“That’s a common thing at your workplace, is it?”
Not my workplace, but some others, yes. What’s with the goalpost-moving? It has to happen to every woman in existence, in every workplace, or it’s not a problem? Tell you what: you just keep screeching about how harmless sexual harassment is, and it’ll happen more.
Hengist, then what’s the problem here? Why are you setting yourself up as the arbiter of who is and is not oversensitive? If women perceive it as being frightening and humiliating–and all available evidence suggest that the overwhelming majority do
Because that’s where I disagree. In fact, I would say that the overwhelming majority don’t, while those who do are trying to ignore or dismiss their experiences.
We can differ as to the solution, but trying to justify it in the name of male bonding seems a bit reprehensible.
That’s a misunderstanding. I was never actually defending the act. I was responding to someone (I forget who) saying that the main purpose is to offend the target. My belief is that it’s not. In fact, it might not even matter if she/he actually hears it, just that it’s been said.
And with this I’m done for today. Thanks to you people I’ve wasted my whole day here when I could’ve been doing something productive, like unlocking the Sherman in World of Tanks (it’s half-price this weekend if anyone plays). Later!
Hengist, forget feminist rhetoric for a second. Isn’t it perfectly reasonable to assume that someone who is harassing you doesn’t have your best interests in mind? I used to get yelled at by assholes in pickup trucks because I rode a bike and had long hair. Most of the time, I was safe enough ignoring it. Occasionally, I got hit with disposable drink cups and, in one case, a lit cigarette butt (no, I never got the license number). Other times, they would follow close and honk their horn in an effort to startle me, then drive off laughing. Somehow, I never got the impression that these guys were just being friendly. And I doubt that impression would change if they were ogling my body.
Seriously, put yourself in the shoes of women (not feminists, women). If, even occasionally, a bunch of gay leather daddies drove by and yelled “hey sweet cheeks!” or “want to suck my dick?” don’t you think that you might feel a bit uncomfortable (even if you happen to be gay)? If you knew of a least one friend who had been raped by a similar group of leather daddies, wouldn’t you be a least a little frightened? And if someone told you that you were just being over sensitive, then wouldn’t that piss you off just a little bit?
You once tried to arrange a fist fight with a poster and on this thread compared yourself to an angry dog. No, most men are not violent and most harassers don’t get physical when confronted. But it can happen. It does happen.
If it does happen, in my experience, you’re at far greater risk of being groped/grabbed than punched or kicked, etc. I’ve seen that too, though.
Hengist: You keep mentioning your “experiences”. What exactly are you referring to? Your experiences of being not-harassed by other men? Oh, yeah, that’s convincing. And I bet you’ve never had an abusive husband, either, so they don’t exist.
Being harassed daily/ having a good amount of examples of harassment in one’s life does seem to point towards this being a pretty big problem, no? Hence many men are harassers?
No. In the immortal, paraphrased words of Samuel L. Jackson:
“MATH, MOTHERFUCKER. CAN YOU DO IT?”
(I recognize this is an abrasive way to introduce a gentle corrective. I hope you take this as gentle chiding between friends, because that’s how I mean it.)
Suppose that only 1% of men are harassers in total, and that there are roughly equal numbers of men and women. Suppose that the average harasser will harass about 10 women a day–far fewer women than you might greet in a friendly fashion each day in a small town, close-knit neighborhood, or college campus.
Then on average women will be harassed once every ten days, or about once every week and a half. However, this harassment won’t be distributed equally; due to random chance, location, variations in culture, and timing, some women will be far more likely to be harassed than others. For some–e.g. the homebound elderly–harassment will never occur. For others it could be on a weekly, twice-weekly, or daily basis.
A stranger grabbing my ass or shouting violent, degrading things to me, would be something I’d tell people about all week. (Hell, I got checked out once in Chelsea (I’m male and male-bodied), and I was still talking about that a month later.) Thus, a very small population of harassers can lead to a large social problem of harassment.
Consider an unrelated problem: Imagine you live in an apartment building of 1,000 people with several elevators, and just one of those one thousand people takes all of their shits in the elevator (for whatever reason). The elevators will be frequently unusable. A week where you never called an elevator to find it full of turd would be a good one. There would be a massive campaign to root out this elevator-shitter and expel them from the building. All this, even though only 0.1% of building residents have EVER shat in the elevator.
TL;DR–a severe problem might indicate not widespread moderate contributions, but a small population of dedicated repeat offenders.
Awww, Hengist flounced off before, you know, actually answering any of my questions.
Seriously, guys, putting aside the legal issues, can’t we at least agree that harassing women is a shitty thing to do? That no amount of supposed bonding with our buds justifies humiliating or frightening other human beings who have done nothing to harm us? Can’t we all agree that people who continue to harass others even after this has been explained to them are, well, assholes?
Signal boosting.
This is where you’re going to take your stand? This is the hill you want to defend? That street harassment is totally fine and not a problem — unless women get upset about it, and then it’s TERRIBLE for women to be so SENSITIVE? This is the kind of behavior you want to support?
Maybe the problem is that you’re not fucking sensitive ENOUGH.
Comrade Silvona, are you talking to me? Because I wrote the original quote (in bold). My point was that men shouldn’t harass women because it frightens and humiliates them. I was arguing against Hegist’s idea that women who complain about it are overly sensitive. Maybe there’s been a miscommunication here. I apologize if I’ve been unclear.
If there’s another reason why men should not harass women, I would be delighted to hear it, so that I may add it to my arsenal next time around. 🙂
” Thanks to you people I’ve wasted my whole day here when I could’ve been doing something productive, like unlocking the Sherman in World of Tanks (it’s half-price this weekend if anyone plays)”
Thanks to us? Are you COMPLETELY off your nut? You chose to come here. You chose to post what you chose to post. It was all a choice on your part. No one put a gun to your head. Now your own procrastination is feminism’s fault too? Jesus tapdancing Christ, take some motherfucking responsibility, will ya?
Because that’s where I disagree. In fact, I would say that the overwhelming majority don’t, while those who do are trying to ignore or dismiss their experiences.
Well, again, I’m not sure what your experience consists of, but I’ve hear about it quite a bit in my time. Besides, even if some women have learned to ignore it, that in no way makes it OK, nor does it mean that women who find it frightening or humiliating are “over sensitive.”
It’s discussions like this that confirm my belief that the MRM is, among other things, a staggering failure of empathy. I haven’t yet seen any of these guys who seem to be able to put themselves in someone else’s shoes. Their hangnail really is worse than someone else falling down a well.
[quote]And with this I’m done for today. Thanks to you people I’ve wasted my whole day here when I could’ve been doing something productive![/quote]
I’ve never seen this done seriously before actually. Huh.
Hengist: You’ve never seen a group of guys being obnoxious, and then one of them gets insulted in return and he steps it up because he’s being watched?
Have you never gone to the movies? Or watched television? Or seen a bar fight? (BTW, have you gone to Seattle yet, to have your little bout of fisticuffs?)
One wonders, given the sudden myopia about cultural tropes and male behavior, at why we ought to think you have any insight to how people interact at all.
Because that’s where I disagree. In fact, I would say that the overwhelming majority don’t, while those who do are trying to ignore or dismiss their experiences.
Bullshit. I gave you a set of numbers, which don’t require anything like constant harrassment; which, over a fraction of a lifetime, add up to a fair number of individual events, enough to be memorable (I mean really, if you had random guys, “accidentally” bumping into you once a week you’d remember it. If you had random guys hollering, “Great ass, sweetcheeks, bring it over here”, once a week, you’d remember it, even if it was only for one year).
But you take people’s claims that it happens, that there are men who harrass them, and you pretend they said all men do it, all the time.
When called on the lie that is, you pretend that’s people refusing to see the truth. You say, “just be smart-assed back” and they will look like losers, and then say that guys, in the presence of the peers they are trying to look for never escalate.
And we are supposed to nod at all this, and say, “By gum, that Hengist is right, all those assholes are just assholes and it doesn’t affect my quality of life one bit.”
But you admit they are assholes. The women they are being assholes too should just suck it up.
But heaven forbid that some women should say that there are men out there who might rape them, and that there is no way to tell which men might.
That, that’s intolerable. That get’s your knickers in a twist. They aren’t assholes, they are raging feminists who hate men and want to castrate them, or lock them up for looking at women the wrong way.
Then, to add insult to injury, there are some women who have the audacity to actually prosecute the men who actually rape women, or beat them.
That can’t stand. They need to be hounded on the internet, and disbarred; driven in shame and obloquy from the public stage.
But guys who treat women like meat, whom I see doing it, who get aggressive when I call them on it (yes, even attempting to threaten me on occasion), they are harmless. They don’t degrade the quality of life. They aren’t at all responsible for some women feeing unsafe around men. No, it’s all those little lady-brains getting upset over nothing, being, oversensitive.