Ladies! You may think you’ve got the men of the world fooled, but the guys over on MGTOWforums.com can see right through you! As dontmarry puts it:
Everything that a woman does is deceitful. From makeup, push-up bras and high heels, to fibbing about her dick count or proclamations of ‘I don’t mind marrying a poor man’ (oh yes you do).
That’s right, ladies! We know those eyelashes aren’t real! We know your cheeks aren’t really that rosy! And your lips aren’t really that red! And your boobies aren’t really … um, what was I saying? I got distracted thinking about boobies. Anyway, you’re all a bunch of liars! I bet some of you even wear Spanx, which are a tool of Satan.
Also, that thing he said about the dick count. Stop the lies! We demand dick count accuracy!
Hengist: “On any given day I am harassed by men who believe they are entitled to my time, attention and body”
“Tell you what, Hengist, I’ll be happy to provide just a few examples from my own life as well as the lives of other women I know personally, of inequity, discrimination, sexual assault and harassment.”
So you are pretending that, “I am harrassed by men”, and a “a few examples from my own life” = “all men are harrassers?
Wow… that’s some amazing inference there. Now, care to show where, using quotations, anyone here actually said, “all men are harrassers”?
Shora: Well, apparently, now it’s not even enough that you brush it off — you are required to not notice it in the first place. Because, since women with their feeble ladybrains can only notice one “type” of man at a time, any woman who notices a man screaming threats and obscenities at her or groping her must be a man-hating wacko feminist who believes all men are out to get her. Now, courtesy of chuckedee and Hengist, we get to the root of the whole “man-hating” accusation: their starting premise is that a woman thinks that at any time, only one type of man exists in the world, because our minds are too weak, you see, to appreciate nuance and variation in human behavior. Therefore, a woman who says that a rape occurred, even if it DID occur and it WAS rape, is certainly thinking all men are rapists. Because if she was a normal, non-man-hating woman, she wouldn’t notice things like rape, domestic violence, insults or slut-shaming, even when they happened to her.
Men, of course, are allowed to notice whatever the hell they want without any negative imprimatur on their character.
Stupid tags.
Especially if when I ignore you, you proceed to shout “Hey! Hey! I’m talking to you!” I’m not hearing impaired. I’m going to notice.
There was a guy on the street yesterday, calling after a woman walking by. She ignored him, so he kept repeating, a little louder each time: because she was getting further away, “Hey, SWEATPANTS!”
He was buy himself, was he trying to bond with me?
So basically, chuckedee and Hengist think all women are Tinkerbell and thus only capable of feeling one emotion at a time?
People can’t change an entire culture single-handedly, but one person can make a difference. If you’re with a group of friends, and one yells a rude thing at another person, speak up and tell them it’s wrong. It can be hard to speak up and be the voice of reason, but once you do, you might surprised to find out everyone else agrees with you but they were too afraid to speak up first.
Absolutely. It takes a good amount of bravery and self-confidence for most guys to do that, though, knowing they might no longer be “part of the gang” if they do. Kinda like a Manboobz regular disagreeing with the party line. 😉 But yes, it is sometimes a problem.
Also, going back to what you said before: If gang-raping a woman is being used as a male-bonding ritual, does it mean it’s not rape anymore? Should the woman just not notice it?
We’re equating catcalling to gang rape now?
Hengist: Not good enough. The first quote is about being harassed by certain men — namely, ones that feel entitled to the woman’s attention and body. Nothing about being harassed by all men. The second quote is about offering to provide examples of being harassed and oppressed. Again, nothing about being harassed by all men. So you have to try again: provide quotes in which the author claims to be harassed by ALL men. Or even the majority (to make it easier for you).
Amused: -slaps hand to forehead- Duh! It’s just so simple I have no idea how I didn’t think of that — oh wait, yes I do; I have a feeble ladybrain who can’t think up such incredible and mindblowing leaps of logic and truthiness.
Mind=Blown
No, you are prioritizing the worst kind of men (but I’m not like them… promise :)). The vast, overwhelming majority of men do not conduct themselves in this manner that you describe, and the fact that you only seem to make a big deal out of the men that do, says everything that anyone needs to know about you.
We’re equating catcalling to gang rape now?
No, we are applying the rules that you yourself set forth. You claimed that catcalling is not harassment because it’s done for purposes of male bonding. Which implies that any act of male bonding is just that. Correct?
Hengist, wouldn’t the logical thing to do be to pretned that you aren’t being poked? You know, just ignore it?
And who compares themselves to a dog? Honestly.
Chuckeedee: Every time I think you can’t get any more idiotic, you manage to surprise.
So, you believe that if a woman is being groped, her proper response would be to feel startled by all those men who are NOT groping her right now. Right? Very well — then I expect that False Rape Society to immediately change its content to writing loads of jaw-dropping entries about women who are NOT accusing anyone of rape.
Being harassed daily/ having a good amount of examples of harassment in one’s life does seem to point towards this being a pretty big problem, no? Hence many men are harassers? Unless, I guess, it’s the same one doing it every time. And doesn’t this seem like the attitude of someone who’s either paranoid or easily offended, considering that a) this sort of discussion only ever comes up in feminist circles and b) personal experience with women tells me they don’t experience anywhere near the quantity or intensity of the treatment described here?
There could also be another explanation. Some people, through a personality quirk or other factors, may in fact attract harassers and other pathological personalities. This isn’t their fault, it’s usually unconscious or beyond their control. It might explain why some women notice/complain about this sort of thing constantly while for others it’s not a big issue.
So.. let me get this straight, in Chuckeeee-land, it’s wrong to notice people who harrass you? Prioritising the people who are being rude/threatening is unjust?
This is the sign of how nasty feminists are? The same sort of guy who says women need to think about how they look, and the places they go, so they can spot the potential rapists (which sounds a lot like prioritising to me), instead of thinking all men might be potential rapists, is now upset that people who are being asshole get noticed more than people who aren’t.
It’s almost as if he’s trying to rig the game so that women are always wrong.
I agree that the vast, overwhelming majority of men do not engage in street harassment. So what’s your point? How does being aware of sexual harassment -when it happens- mean that I’m prioritizing the kind of men who do that?
What does it say about me other than establishing that I can see, hear, and walk?
You claimed that catcalling is not harassment because it’s done for purposes of male bonding. Which implies that any act of male bonding is just that. Correct?
Sadly, yes, it can be even in the case of rape. Obviously doesn’t make it right, but neither is your analogy. The consequences of rape are not in the same category as those of yelling something in the street, and it’s both false and dishonest to try to make them equivalent.
Hengist, could you please answer my previous question? I re quoted it just for you.
This being a blog about misogyny, women commenting here are going to talk about sexist men, and aren’t going to talk much about non-sexist men since that’s off-topic. Thus the men mentioned by women here isn’t necessarily going to be representative of what they think about men in general. To get a representative sampling you’d have to look at what the same women said about men elsewhere both on and off the Internet.
Hengist; Being harassed daily/ having a good amount of examples of harassment in one’s life does seem to point towards this being a pretty big problem, no?
No, if by pretty big problem you mean constant. Lets say I’m a woman, 30 years old, and I started to noticeably enter puberty at 13. Let’s further say I get harassed once a week.
30 – 13 = 17 x 52 = 884 discrete acts of harassment. It’s not a huge number of the men I encounter, but I will build up a large body of anecdata to hand to morons who say it’s a trivial problem.
Now, if by big problem you mean the tolerance for that level of steady harrassment of half the population, I agree.
Come on, Hengist. Don’t do this bullshit equivocation and backpedaling. We were getting somewhere. You were asked to provide quotes, from this thread, that proved that anyone here thinks that all men are harassers all the time. You quoted me and completely misrepresented what I said by doing so.
I have never said that all men are harassers. I have never said that most men are harassers. I don’t believe that and nothing that I’ve written today suggests -let alone- proves that I do.
But I have been sexually harassed. I have been harassed on the street, I have been harassed on my job. Just last Sunday, I was harassed in my own home. Some men enjoy -for whatever reason- harassing women. And I’ve met my fair share of them.
It can be a problem. It’s not the biggest problem I have, but it can be a problem.
What is it about your experience that makes it a more valid interpretation of oppression and harassment than the experiences of other women?
Please keep in mind that “my sister/friends don’t tell me about harassment” is not actually a rigorous argument.
Oh, and “they don’t tell you because they’re afraid and don’t trust you” is a rigorous argument?
Oh and why we’re at it can you tell me what you think about my previous comments about dismissal being a form of oppression?
Depends on who does the dismissal, for what reason, and whether it’s warranted. In your case, I didn’t dismiss your experiences as in saying they didn’t happen. I believe that you felt the way you said you did, and also that you might be oversensitive. I’ve said this before.
Chuck, what do mean not “notice” the men who don’t do this? Of course not all men are catcalling assholes, duh. How are we supposed to prioritize them? Blowjobs?
I’ve talked to a lot of women in my time, and I don’t know of anyone–not one–who enjoys being shouted at or harassed on the street. Universally, women I’ve talked to experience harassment as being unpleasant at best and downright frightening at worst. I’ve known women–my wife included–who restrict their activities so as to not be harassed on the street. My wife, for example, no longer jogs because she finds the comments that men periodically yell at her to be humiliating and frightening (by the way, she jogged in loose sweats and generally dresses very modestly). And, lest you think that I only associate with crazy feminists, my mother-in-law, who voted for Bush twice, doesn’t like being harassed on the street either.
Seriously, guys, putting aside the legal issues, can’t we at least agree that harassing women is a shitty thing to do? That no amount of supposed bonding with our buds justifies humiliating or frightening other human beings who have done nothing to harm us? Can’t we all agree that people who continue to harass others even after this has been explained to them are, well, assholes?
It doesn’t seem like much to ask.
Oddly enough, I think the last time I noticed any harassment was in high school 17 years ago with some guy who drove up and was masturbating, he asked my friend and I if we wanted sex.
We both said no and he speed off.
Now have I seen other women get harassed? Yes. It sucks.
Big surprise there. “Come on, provide quotes!” “Nuh-uh, those don’t count!”
I have never said that all men are harassers. I have never said that most men are harassers. I don’t believe that and nothing that I’ve written today suggests -let alone- proves that I do.
Ok, but you do see it as a serious and ever-present problem in your life, right?
But I have been sexually harassed. I have been harassed on the street, I have been harassed on my job. Just last Sunday, I was harassed in my own home. Some men enjoy -for whatever reason- harassing women. And I’ve met my fair share of them.
Can you give an example of what this harassment consisted of and how you reacted to it? I think that would answer whether you were oversensitive or not.