Ladies! You may think you’ve got the men of the world fooled, but the guys over on MGTOWforums.com can see right through you! As dontmarry puts it:
Everything that a woman does is deceitful. From makeup, push-up bras and high heels, to fibbing about her dick count or proclamations of ‘I don’t mind marrying a poor man’ (oh yes you do).
That’s right, ladies! We know those eyelashes aren’t real! We know your cheeks aren’t really that rosy! And your lips aren’t really that red! And your boobies aren’t really … um, what was I saying? I got distracted thinking about boobies. Anyway, you’re all a bunch of liars! I bet some of you even wear Spanx, which are a tool of Satan.
Also, that thing he said about the dick count. Stop the lies! We demand dick count accuracy!
@chuckeedee
Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. In any basic discourse, you substantiate with fact. You refuse to do so. It’s pretty simple to see why you can’t back up your claims. You have no empirical basis in what you are saying. Until you produce some actual credible data, which is YOUR obligation to do so for your own claims, you words hold no meaning, no creditability, and no validity in any sense. This isn’t about liberal debate tactics. This is about actual science. You would be kicked out of any discussion in science, hard or soft, because you don’t bother to support your statements. You’ve been refusing to substantiate what you’ve been saying for a while here. You are lacking rigor, truth, and any data to even be correct on. You do not do the very basic act of producing data. You give no indicator to your validity and ability to handle data. You have no authority in the realm of discussion until you indicate you are capable of demonstrating any level of engagement with empirical facts.
Let me remind you, you haven’t given any iota of support for your statements. I suggest you re-examine what you are attempting to say, and provide basis for it. Otherwise, why the fuck are you wasting your time here? If you’re serious, that would be one thing. You could actually attempt to back up what you are saying. But since you have not done so, your only purpose so far seems to be what? Trolling? I give you 3/10 at best for that. Try harder.
Yeah, Chuckee is losing his entertainment value and barely even touching tangentially on the topics. I’m leaning in favor of him actually participating for good or ill of being tossed overboard.
He *is* the weakest link.
Vis a vis make up and the expense thereof:
I am something of a makeup fiend. Not that I visibly wear a lot (my mother and sister taught me early on that “If someone compliments you on your makeup, you are wearing too much”) unless I’m going for a red lip, but I do wear makeup every day when I go to work (Librarian) and when/if I go out on weekends.
$300 a month is INSANE. I wear name brands (Benefit, MakeUpForEver, Besame, Guerlain, Lush) and I would say that I don’t spend over $650 a year. The friend who is paying that much is being taken for a ride and quite frankly, once the makeup is on? No one can tell if you’re wearing Cover Girl from Dior.
Regarding makeup and the wearing thereof:
There are lots of reasons to wear makeup. Chuckeedee’s binary choice is ridiculous and falsely limited. On any given day I might be wearing makeup to:
Look more professional.
Match the retro 50’s dress I’m wearing.
Cover up temporary flaws (that I still sometimes get pimples at this age is horrifying, dark circles from being tired or red nose from having a cold are other examples).
Experiment with colors and techniques.
Look dramatic for a particular event.
Etc. and so on and so on.
And I’m only one woman! There’s millions of women who wear makeup. I am sure they all have their own reasons!
And finally:
Really, NWOSlave. Your continued refusal to state what clothing you, personally, find acceptable for women has gone past merely frustrating to actually laughable. You clearly have an opinion, because you react negatively to the imagined sluttitude of Every Woman In The World With Their Short Skirts And See Through Shirts (huh? where? do you live in a fantastical Rio De Janeiro where it is always Carnivale?) and insist that men have a right to harass said women. So what clothing must a woman wear to not be deserving of being harassed? It’s an easy question. It’s not at all difficult.
I will even answer yours. While in my opinion it is NEVER right for any person to verbally harass another person over what they are wearing, I will give my idea of appropriate wear for a few every day situations:
Running a Boy Scout Troop – Jeans or khaki’s, a non-printed T shirt or sweater (depending on weather), sneakers or comfortable walking shoes.
Going to a night club: Short skirt, heels not too high to be danceable, sparkly shirt.
Work in a fairly professional environment: Just above knee length or longer skirt or dress pants, blouse, cardigan or jacket depending on weather and preference. Or Suit. Or a dress of simple, spare cut.
Just walking around/living life/grocery shopping/day off work: Jeans, or a skirt, or shorts, or khaki’s, or yoga pants (depending on weather/preference), t-shirt, or sweater, or sweatshirt, or blouse, or tank top. Or a casual dress, with or without light sweater.
See, that’s not hard NWOSlave. I can be even more specific if you give me more specific events/climates/etc. Happy to do so.
Now answer the question, what, in your personal opinion, should women wear that is not deserving of harassment from men?
Katz: point taken for most of us mortals. But if you’re paying someone enough that you can unofficially require them to spend upwards of 4K a year in makeup alone to look “professional” enough (and holy hell, what must the rest of the package be costing her? You don’t put Ann Taylor skirts under a thousand dollar face) I am going to assume this is an employee that is not so easily replaced. Not impossible to replace, sure, but still someone with some bargaining power.
It doesn’t take a lot of thought to chide your employees for not hitting a standard that is only vaguely defined in your own head, especially if you can’t see how much it is costing them. Just getting all the women together to ask, “hey, fine, we agree to spend this much time and energy on our looks even though it doesn’t make a lot of sense, but please tell us exactly what you want” is a start. If it’s important enough to get in their faces about it’s important enough to give them a clear explanation, even if doing so leaves them open for lawsuits. Actually, especially so.
I would be curious to see that written down, because I suspect that the kind of place where management is willing to say your $300/month face still isn’t spackled to their standards seems likely to have an unspoken no fatties policy, or minorities OK as long as they look white enough policy, or any number of other shallow discriminatory policies.
I have a hard time believing that Chuckie is really succeeding at making himself happy this way. YMMV, I suppose, but when you’re with an entire group of people who think you’re an idiot, flipping things around and saying, “No! I’m right and you’re the stupid ones!” is never very convincing (although marginally more so if you are right).
I dunno, if his aim was to make the gang here froth itself up into a frenzy, then congratulate each other over their “pwnage” of him like it’s srs bzns, I’d say he succeeded pretty well.
It’s like when you didn’t get invited to that party in middle school and you tried to convince yourself that you were having way more fun at home by yourself.
If you’re a feminist, you just raise a ruckus and get the government to MAKE the host invite you to the party or be penalized otherwise. 😉
when you’re with an entire group of people who think you’re an idiot, flipping things around and saying, “No! I’m right and you’re the stupid ones!”
Isn’t that the core idea of most feminist blogs?
I swear, if a normal person hears 100 people telling him he smells like shit, he’ll eventually check his underpants. A feminist will just go “Oh, can’t you come up with something _original_? I made a bingo card!”
Except the party in the real life is actually jobs, for which people are paid, or options for education, so… not a very good analog.
And the smell analogy is just weird… it makes no sense whatsoever, because in one thing, we are talking about logic and in the other – stereotypes, unquestioned believes and the like.
Damn… are all MRA related fans THIS stupid?
Damn… are all MRA related fans THIS stupid?
Translation: “come on guys, agree with me! Let’s get the dogpile going!”
Short answer: yes.
I’m curious, Hengist. You’re constantly complaining about the “tone” of the posters here. You clearly believe that it’s rude to point out that poorly formed and/or erroneous arguments are poorly formed and erroneous. You bring almost nothing salient or of value to the discussions. And, even now, in this half-assed defense of -or show of “solidarity” with- chuckeedee you offer no facts or even opinions that explain why you think he’s right.
So other than the obvious delight you take in being offended by the deplorable manners of the manboobz “gang,” why exactly are you here? I mean, you know you don’t have to be here right? The world wide web is huge. If you want to be a one man “amen corner” to all of the “feminists are bad, and stupid… and smelly” whirling about the blogosphere, please allow me to poInt out that there are any number of spaces that will accommodate you, beautifully.
Hengist when people again and again can’t form a logical argument and their posts and comments fall to “womenz suck because I said so” yes, there is a moment in which one could fairly ask if everyone is that challenged since none of the groups show any criticism to these people, so they either approve or do not think that those people are in the wrong.
Dogpile indeed, of people who expect logic, arguments and to a some extent at least, consistency.
But where’s the fun in going to a place where everyone agrees with you? That’s for the weak-minded and insecure *cough, cough*.
Hengist when people again and again can’t form a logical argument and their posts and comments fall to “womenz suck because I said so”
Which is very different from “womenz are oppressed by evil menz because I said so”, yes? Here’s a question, how are you or people you know oppressed in their day-to-day lives for being female? Since you keep talking about facts and logic and all that.
Hengist, do resist the temptation to explain anything to these people. A formidable adversary always deserves a reply. These people are not formidable, they are toxic. They are applying mob principles to shout down dissent. No matter what you say, no matter how powerful your argument, they’ll just shout it down. Refer Ann Coulter. Anticipate their predictable reaction to the mere mention of Ann Coulter’s name… her book, btw, hits the nail right on the head as to what I’m talking about – she’s writing about them:
http://www.amazon.com/Demonic-How-Liberal-Endangering-America/dp/0307353486
Main difference: there is a proof for the latter but for the former it all derives from erasing personalities and agendas for different people and slamming them under the same tag and acting if there are nothing more than a bunch of perceived stereotypical beliefs.
So… no, your logic is incorrect here.
Hengist.
I’m pretty lucky, since I’m straight, look mostly white, and am if not conventionally attractive then at least good looking, so I’m spared from some egregious examples of sexism. however
On any given day I am harassed by men who believe they are entitled to my time, attention and body
On any given day I have to choose between wearing what I want to wear (something flattering. Not even mini skirts and halter tops, but normal shirts and jeans that fit) and something that will allow me to avoid harassment (baggy clothing, frizzy hairstyle, ect)
I lost a job at a catering hall because of my refusal to wear makeup and high heals, on shifts that were 8 hours long and I was not allowed to sit.
My opinions are routinely dismissed by me being an “emotional female”, especially when it is “that time of the month.”
I often have to pitch my voice lower and act calmer then I am (indeed, calmer then any male counterpart) to be taken seriously at all
Slut shaming, in some form or another, is near constant
When I am upset, it is almost never because something is upsetting. It’s because I’m a crazy female
I have to choose between speaking up when something bothers me and being the humorless feminist with no friends, or just letting it simmer but keep the peace. If I were to say anything, it wouldn’t be taken seriously anyway, because I’m just “oversensitive”
Check out http://myfaultimfemale.wordpress.com/ for some more stories about oppression in day to day lives.
I think chuckeedee is a Poe. No one has that big a crush on Ann Coulter.
NullPointer: Bill Maher did.
Perhaps we ought to give chuckeedee’s Pearls of Wisdom™ the attention they deserve, and let the crickets chirp after them.
Hengist:
If 100 people are telling you that you smell like shit, that may not just be a “dogpile.”
That’s right, Chuckee! Don’t engage these silly liberals! But be sure to keep coming back to say that you are not engaging these silly liberals. That’ll show us.
As opposed to the massive amounts of security on prominent display from someone who comes into a place where people disagree with them, presents absolutely no cogent arguments in defense of their beliefs or positions, and then whines -incessantly- about how mean everyone is.
So strong-minded, that.
You do realize that the posters here actively engage people who disagree with them every day. And, generally, with ideas that consist of far more than “dogpile!”, “y’all are bullies!”, and “evil menz!!!”
Tell you what, Hengist, I’ll be happy to provide just a few examples from my own life as well as the lives of other women I know personally, of inequity, discrimination, sexual assault and harassment. Just as soon as you point out, with citations, exactly where I, or any other poster on this board, have actually made the argument that “womenz are oppressed by evil menz because I said so”.
Deal?
I really like chuckeedee’s crush on Coulter. Really. Not only does it provide background and context for why he thinks he’s an intellectual while being unable to write his way out of a paper-bag or defend his arguments coherently – it’s really cute. Plus, Coulter actually offers some, flimsy, anecdotal support to his belief that women are role-playing in their professional endeavors and use clothing and cosmetics to feel sexy and attractive. I mean, who’s a better example than Coulter? “Sexy Journalist/Pundit” has been her Halloween costume for years.
Ever hear of Mike Reed? It’s amazing how the guy described this place to a T before it even existed.
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/cybersisters.htm
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/swarm.htm
Shora, I have a sister and multiple female friends and I have never heard any of them complain of being ‘constantly’ harassed by men, of being slut-shamed, pressured into what to wear etc. Might I suggest that women who feel like this all the time could be a tad over-sensitive? Not saying it never happens, but when you go around expecting to be treated a certain way, you’re more likely to see examples of it everywhere.
Wasn’t make up invented by men?
Hengist, why would you bother asking women about their experiences if you were just going to dismiss them out of hand anyway? It certainly would have saved us all a lot of time and energy.
I am not your sister, and I am not your female friends. I’m pretty sure of one of your female friends or sister DID come to you with a similar experience, your reply to them would be equally dismissive (You’re just being oversensitive, it’s not that big a deal, my other female friends don’t have this problem, and so on). Perhaps your friends know that and wouldn’t come to you about it? It’s a thought.
Anyway, even if your entire circle of women you associate with experience no harrassment whatsoever, it still wouldn’t be proof against MY experiences and the experiences of many other women, some of whom posted on that link I gave you.
Might I add that dismissing someone’s lived experience as being oversensitive is just a tad oppressive?
Hengist, is it possible that they choose not to speak with you about these things because you: 1) kind of don’t believe they happen with any frequency and 2) don’t really care if they do? Any possibility, any what so ever, that they don’t want to share something that might be upsetting to them with you only to have you ask them if they’re being “…a tad over-sensitive?” Perhaps they don’t care to have their experiences dismissed and diminished the way you just dismissed and diminished Shora’s candid and detailed response to your challenge?
Might I suggest that the three or four women you know personally, while fine as a form of anecdotal evidence, can hardly be presented as a legitimate rebuttal to that response. Have you ever asked any of them about being harassed? Do you care?
If one of your female friends came to you and told you about a really ugly exchange she had on the street with a guy who told her she had “dick sucking” lips while she was waiting to cross the street, what would you say to her?