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Why the Men’s Rights Movement needs to stop making excuses for violence

The aftermath of a gunman's rampage at an Arkansas courthouse

In June, a man named Thomas Ball took his own life – literally lighting himself ablaze – outside of a Keane, New Hampshire courthouse. He left behind a manifesto protesting his treatment by the family court.

But Ball wanted to do more than protest what he felt were injustices against men. He hoped to inspire other men to take the law into their own hands; in his words “we need to start burning down police stations and courthouses.”

He wasn’t speaking figuratively: he was talking about real violence.

[T]he dirty deeds are being carried out by our local police, prosecutors and judges. …  Collaborators who are no different than the Vichy of France or the Quislings of Norway during the Second World War. … And they need to be held accountable. So burn them out. …

Ball went on to offer specific advice on how to construct the most effective Molotov cocktails to lob at courthouses and police stations.

Nor did he seem overly concerned that people would be killed:

There will be some casualties in this war. Some killed, some wounded, some captured. Some of them will be theirs. Some of the casualties will be ours. …

I only managed to get the main door of the Cheshire County Courthouse in Keene, NH. I would appreciate it if some of you boys would finish the job for me.

Ball has been treated as a martyr by many Men’s Right’s Activists online; his manifesto – including those parts that explicitly call for terrorism – has been reposted on a number of MRA sites.

Why am I bringing up Ball? This is why:

On Tuesday, an Arkansas man reportedly entered the office of the judge that had presided over his divorce and custody hearings, and opened fire with a semiautomatic rifle. Amazingly, no one died as a result of his rampage, aside from the gunman himself, James Ray Palmer, who was taken down by police in a gun battle outside the courthouse, according to news accounts. The judge, fortunately, was not there, and the gunman’s rifle apparently jammed.  Before heading to the courthouse, authorities say, Palmer set his own home on fire with timed incendiary devices.

Was Palmer inspired directly by Ball’s manifesto? We don’t know. The judge in this case was by no means the first to be targeted by a man angry at the outcome of his divorce or custody case.  Judges were receiving death threats – and in some cases actually being murdered – long before there was such a thing as the Men’s Rights movement online.

But talk of violence is common on Men’s Rights sites. Opponents of the Men’s Rights movement are denounced as “collaborators,” while others talk plainly about fighting a “war” against feminism. Angry Harry, a British MRA revered by many of his ideological compatriots on this side of the pond, has offered an explicit apologia for violence against family court judges.

Even if Palmer himself was not directly influenced by the MRM online—as of yet, we don’t know —  it is only a matter of time until some unbalanced person steeped in the violent rhetoric of the MRM online decides to “finish the job” started by Thomas Ball. It is only a matter of time until those espousing such rhetoric have real blood on their hands.

If the MRM truly aspires to be a real civil rights movement, rather than a reactionary hate sect more redolent of the KKK than of MLK, moderate MRAs need to step up and speak out against the bullies and the would-be warriors. They need to stop canonizing violent-minded men like Ball. They need to make clear that violent rhetoric – not to mention specific threats or calls to terrorism – have no place in the movement.

Do I expect this to happen? No. I think instead we will get more excuses, more evasions, more apologias for violence — and more threatening talk.

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KathleenB
KathleenB
10 years ago

Post partum psychosis and post partum depression are two different things.

Lauralot
10 years ago

Hey guys, remember all those convoluted feminist studies and murder advocates that made sure Casey Anthony was found not guilty? Yeah, those were some good times for all those abusers lobbying feminist terrorists.

Catalogue
10 years ago

Lauralot

NOW Helps Mom Charged in Drownings
By Pam Easton
Associated Press Writer
Monday, Aug. 27, 2001; 4:12 p.m. EDT

HOUSTON –– The National Organization for Women and other groups said Monday they are helping to raise money to defend Andrea Yates – the mother accused of drowning her five children in the bathtub – in part to help other women suffering from postpartum depression.

“It gives us a platform for something that obviously needs education,” said Deborah Bell, president of Texas NOW. “One of our feminist beliefs is to be there for other women. Some good may come out of this tragedy.”

The groups also oppose the death penalty for Yates, saying her depression should be taken into account in any punishment.

Yates, 37, called police on June 20 and admitted drowning her children in the tub. Her husband, Russell Yates, told police his wife was depressed and had been treated for postpartum depression. She is under suicide watch in a jail psychiatric unit.

NOW was joined on Monday by the American Civil Liberties Union, other women’s and health groups and several anti-death penalty organizations.

“Addressing violence with more violence creates more suffering, grief and victims,” said Gary Norman of the Murder Victims Families for Reconciliation. “Let us end this suffering and treat Mrs. Yates’ illness and not allow ourselves to continue the perpetuation of pain.”

Harris County District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal has said he will seek the death penalty.

NOW and the other groups in the Andrea Pia Yates Support Coalition plan a candlelight vigil on Sept. 11, a day before a hearing is scheduled to determine if Yates is fit to stand trial.

The defense fund was previously established by Yates’ lawyers, but they cannot publicize it because of a court-imposed gag order.

Any money raised on Yates’ behalf but not needed for her defense will go to groups working to educate and help others suffering from postpartum depression, coalition members said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010827/aponline161254_000.htm

For people that behave like you know it all, you are very short on facts about this stuff.

KathleenB
KathleenB
10 years ago

Raising money for a defense fund =/= excusing what Yates did. She had a pretty clear mental illness, and increased awareness of post partum depression and psychosis will probably help prevent something like this from happening again.

Lauralot
10 years ago

“For people that behave like you know it all, you are very short on facts about this stuff.”

Projection, much?

You’re still claiming that all feminists everywhere are out to protect any woman who murders a child or a man. That didn’t happen for Casey Anthony, it didn’t happen for Genene Jones, and it has happened for dozens of others.

And NOW doesn’t speak for all feminists. They protested American Psycho, for example. I love American Psycho and I think the arguments against publishing it are laughable.

Lauralot
10 years ago

Hasn’t happened, damn it. Also, everything Kathleen said. When someone who commits a murder has a very well documented history of mental breakdowns and hospitalizations, it’s understandable why a group might advocate for that person to receive treatment instead of the death penalty. And I’d say that for a man as well as a woman.

VoiP
VoiP
10 years ago

I love how Catalogue has NEVER, NOT ONCE, said “Murder is bad.” (Even though we have several posters here who are willing to say that vandalism is bad, even when it doesn’t kill people.) How about it, Catalogue? What are your feelings about the Palmer shooting? Is it a bad thing, in your opinion, to shoot up a courthouse?

darksidecat
10 years ago

Just curious Catalogue, but do you know what happens when a person is found not guilty by reason of insanity (which is what Yates defense was)? The defendent who sucessfully pleads not guilty by reason of insanity is institutionalized in a mental instituion. She is kept in until she is either no longer “a danger to herself or others” or “cured of the underlying disorder” (depending on the jurisdiction). As a practical matter, defendents who sucessfully run an insanity defense do not end up spending less time on average locked up away from society than those who are found guilty (in states with a “cured” standard, this is an effective life sentence for many defendents). A plea of not guilty by reason of insanity is by no means a get out of jail free card. Shit, any criminal lawyer can tell you as much in an instant (in reality, it is a very rare plea).

Catalogue
10 years ago

Whats really funny is how you all rallied round agreeing that the men’s movement are violent and should talk responsibility for these people that are not connected to them, but when confronted with the reality and actual policy that indicates that they abusers lobby is feminism, and that feminism has been systematically protecting abusers and invalidating victims for decades now and that feminism is implicated in actual organised terrorism you will all deny deny deny.

One standard for your group and a different one entirely for the mens movement.

When you do that you uphold patriarchy and gender role police you know, its also funny that feminists don’t realize that they are ones boxing women off as pure and passive and acted upon and men as sinister and acting … which is the essence of this blog really. Sexism and double standards.

Ok my friend is here.

Bye x

VoiP
VoiP
10 years ago

Instead, we’re kind of playing on the field he provided here. Go on, Catalogue, here’s a simpler version of the Manboobz challenge, just for you: Is what Palmer did OK?

You’ll have to read the OP first though, I understand that might be a bit of a challenge.

Catalogue
10 years ago

Yes Dark side cat I know that. Women that murder need help men that do are monsters, according to feminism, and traditionalism.

Feminists are actually much more Conservative and into gender boxes than they are aware of.

Now I have to go this time.

Lauralot
10 years ago

Of course what Palmer did is okay. He’s a man, and Catalogue hasn’t bothered to read the details. And the fact that his wife divorced him in the place because he was abusive? Clearly just a lie made up by the female abusers lobby.

KathleenB
KathleenB
10 years ago

Catalogue: Wow, you’re just a spinning vortex of stupidity and mansplaining. Just because you think something (feminism excuses abuse, feminists are all terrorists, etc) doesn’t make it true. And since you’ve consistently refused to provide sources that actually prove what you say they prove, I’m going to assume from here on in that you’re full of shit.

Lauralot
10 years ago

Women that murder need help men that do are monsters, according to feminism, and traditionalism.

Lol, because feminism and traditionalism just go together like peanut butter and jelly.

Oh wait, like potassium and water.

“Conservative and into gender boxes?” Yeah, that’s why we fight for reproductive rights, and the ability to wear what we want without being branded as sluts and told we’re asking for it if we’re raped. And I’m sure Ozy’s into feminism for our gender boxes, right?

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth
10 years ago

Retaliation by lone nuts against the family courts is inevitable, the mrm is fully aware of that but that doesnt mean it supports it, anyone that listens to AVFM radio will have heard the anti violence segments.

Excuse you but why is it it “inevitable?”

Also, why are you not clearly stating “anyone who uses violence or calls for violence to advance the men’s rights movement or cause is wrong and here are several other people in the movement who agree with me” *followed by links.*

This really is not a difficult request.

Lauralot
10 years ago

Remember somewhere upthread when he told us he’d provide links to MRM sites denouncing violence?

Still waiting.

KathleenB
KathleenB
10 years ago

Lauralot: I’m still waiting for him to provide links showing the feminist terrorist groups exists and that feminism excuses abuse and murder. We might be waiting awhile.

Lauralot
10 years ago

Apparently saying that the mentally ill ought to receive mental treatment is excusing murder.

The more you know!

Bostonian
Bostonian
10 years ago

He can never provide links to any nonviolent MRA blogs. Those are things that simply do not exist. He is a shill for the Abuser’s Lobby like most MRAs.

Captain Bathrobe
10 years ago

Actually, an interesting phenomenon, related to feminists’ tolerance for violent rhetoric, happened on this very thread. When Francios Trembeley or whoever the fuck upthread called for violence against masculinists, he/she was told to GTFO and STFU by no fewer than 6 people including myself, in rather short order, before being banned by David. How many upvotes does Peter Andrew Nolan (fuck his little name add-ons) gets when he calls for feminists to be killed? Has any MRA ever disagreed with him? How many MRAs celebrate people like Ball and Palmer?

Catalogue, you say that Dave singles out the nutty fringe of the MRM for ridicule. Frankly, from what I’ve seen, it’s all nutty fringe.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

When you do that you uphold patriarchy and gender role police you know, its also funny that feminists don’t realize that they are ones boxing women off as pure and passive and acted upon and men as sinister and acting

Um.. Catalogue… *raps glass*

I dun think feminists are the ones saying that women are pure and passive… xD

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

@Rutee you don’t have to, just look at his blog… he alrdy knows about it and seems quite happy xD

Bostonian
Bostonian
10 years ago

So Catalog is a complete abuse denier and liar, such a surprise. I looked at his blog in greater depth than he has ever looked at anything. He hates anyone who brings abusers to justice, like many MRAs.
MRAs will not be happy until they are allowed to beat and murder with impunity. They get very angry when reminded that society is not necessarily on board with that.

Pecunium
10 years ago

CB: Yeah, I was one of those… perhaps because I am one of the people here who knows what untrammeled violence looks like.

But Catalogue hasright on his side or some such shit.

That, and an unwillingness to own his words.

darksidecat
10 years ago

Because no famous male violent offender has ever had a sucessful insanity plea. It isn’t like some guy literally shot the president and was found not guilty by reason of insanity, right? Oh, wait…http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hinckley,_Jr.

Lauralot
10 years ago

My god, that blog. There’s a post about why Ozy is the devil that refers to zir as a “teenaged girl.”

Yeah, any credibility Catalogue had left just went straight down the toliet.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

I’ve noticed the MRAs LOVE to point out that Ozy is a “teenage girl” cuz they think it means something about her (but they never elaborate on what, they just leave it hanging, cuz we all know what teen girls are like amirite? xD )

VoiP
VoiP
10 years ago

Whats really funny is how you all rallied round agreeing that the men’s movement are violent and should talk responsibility for these people that are not connected to them…

Sigh. My FIRST RESPONSE TO YOU was about how I speak up against violence committed by other members of my religion. Why should MRAs get a pass when nobody else does?

VoiP
VoiP
10 years ago

Unless you didn’t read my post either, which wouldn’t surprise me.

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

Because no famous male violent offender has ever had a sucessful insanity plea. It isn’t like some guy literally shot the president and was found not guilty by reason of insanity, right? Oh, wait…http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hinckley,_Jr.

What I find amazing is that people expect us to demolish the Insanity Plea for any reason other than “We have a better way to prevent the mentally ill from being thrown in prison due to their illness!” Add ableist to Catalogue’s growing list of stupidity. Seriously, who the fuck tries to use the insanity plea as proof of anything about gender relations? It’s ludicrously difficult to get to begin with!

katz
10 years ago

Ami, you link here don’t you and this site links to many sites that promote abuse denial?

And Ozy links to Ami who links to this site that links to sites that promote abuse denial, and I link to Ozy who links to Ami who…

It’s like violent feminist degrees of Kevin Bacon!

(Note: I have no idea who actually links to each other.)

captainbathrobe
10 years ago

But does Kevin Bacon deny abuse? That’s the real question.

zombie rotten mcdonald
10 years ago

I recall a while ago, someone showed that from Pat Robertson’s 700 Club web site , you could get to a porn site in three clicks or less.

So obviously, Pat Robertson is a pornographer.

cynickal
cynickal
10 years ago

Shakespear is pro-state applied violence for criminals are are most people.

Another fallacious argument.

I’ve proven that’s an impossible task and no feminist site can met the standard and that its an intellectually dishonest argument as they usually are here.

Fallacious argument.

Another very common theme here, the false abuse allegation.You are dishonest and you make false allegations about abuse about at least one large group of people.

Fallacious argument.

Hey! This is fun! I just have to claim something and deny points, counter-points, citations, studies, evidence and data!

I’m going to win ALL the internets!!!!

zombie rotten mcdonald
10 years ago

Hey! This is fun! I just have to claim something and deny points, counter-points, citations, studies, evidence and data!

ANOTHER fallacy.

…you’re right, cynickal! I am going to argue like this FROM NOW ON.

cynickal
cynickal
10 years ago

NOW Helps Mom Charged in Drownings

You know if there were more female lawyers, Catalog would be accusing the ACLU of being a terrorist organization.

razlomra1
10 years ago

Oh what a load of crap. It is painfully obvious that this guy has absolutely no idea what the Men’s Rights Movement is about. Violence is no in any way shape of form a part of the men’s rights movement. If anything, the MRM a preemptive movement to curb violence which is made inevitable under feminist governance. If the MRM fails to write the wrongs in society that oppress & discriminates against men while destroying families, you will see acts of violence similar to those of the London riots or worse. These violent acts won’t be committed by MRAs, but by ordinary people brought to desperation by a corrupt & unjust system. Many of them won’t even know what the MRM is.
The biggest names in the MRM are Paul Elam, JTO, & Bernard Chapin. All of these men have openly denounced violence on several occasions.

Hershele Ostropoler
10 years ago

Ami:

Are you planning on violently revolting anytime soon?

… too easy.

paniorpa:

Those who are to be blamed for these killings are the people who support these laws who will create desperate men, namely feminists.

Wow, really? If that’s really the case, men should probably be locked away for our own good. If we’re that unable to control ourselves we certainly shouldn’t be in charge of other people.

Catalogue:

So me a non-violent non, man hating feminist site, and I will happily show you a non woman hating men’s movement site but I cannot guarantee non-violent,

Now who has a double standard?

But I could probably show you a feminist site that meets the same standards vis-a-vis men that I want a masculist site to meet vis-a-vis women.

Catalogue:

I’m also pointing out that its dishonest to pretend that every one that sympathizes with T. Ball agrees with his call to terrorism or that because some statistically irrelevant minority of hardliners do, that all men’s rights people do.

In isolation I might agree with this. But Ball and his ilk seems entirely consistant with the bulk of MRA sites, which seem to typically treat pro-man and anti-feminist/anti-woman as the same thing.

I maintain that the general thrust of sentiment on MRA sites is more like Ball, in terms of tactics as well as philosophy, than the general thrust of sentiment on feminist sites is like Valerie Solanas.

Catalogue:

Feminists actively support legislation that allows a woman to kill her husband in cold blood and escape a murder charge,

I don’t know of any feminist who does that in the name of feminism. I personally support including protection from intimate partner violence in the definition of self-defense, though of course that isn’t “in cold blood,” nor does it really take into account the genders or perceived genders, or relationship status, of the people involved.

raz:

If anything, the MRM a preemptive movement to curb violence which is made inevitable under feminist governance.

In what way is “if group X is in charge, violence is inevitable” not a terrorist threat?

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

If anything, the MRM a preemptive movement to curb violence which is made inevitable under feminist governance.

Gleeful terrorists. If you can’t even convince me that the Black Panthers were inevitable, the MRM has got shit less than zero chance of it. The best you’ve got at this point is “I wouldn’t PERSONALLY pull the trigger but boy howdy, I’m glad someone else is”.

Seriously what the fuck is this shit?

you will see acts of violence similar to those of the London riots or worse.

You know that was done by the poor, right?

a corrupt & unjust system.

I’m getting tired of appropriation by white dudes. You have no idea who the court system screws, you stupid asshole.

AdamaKnowsBest
AdamaKnowsBest
10 years ago

I know you’re trying to argue that MRAs are somehow linked to violence or the promotion of it. However I would like to point out that I believe you have failed to demonstrate this point as you did not cited anything which can lead one to that conclusion convincingly. In fact I would argue that you have stated a number of things in this article which actually detract from making the point you desired. A primary example would be this paragraph:

“Was Palmer inspired directly by Ball’s manifesto? We don’t know. The judge in this case was by no means the first to be targeted by a man angry at the outcome of his divorce or custody case. Judges were receiving death threats – and in some cases actually being murdered – long before there was such a thing as the Men’s Rights movement online.”

As you can see this entire paragraph renders your entire argument invalid as you clearly state that you do not know if Mr Palmer or Mr Ball where indeed motivated by the MRA movement. Also you clearly state that the MRAs are not directly linked to violence against divorce judges. These two things do a great disservice to the argument you were trying to make imo.

Anyways it was an interesting article to read thank you for posting it.

Amused
Amused
10 years ago

@rozlomra1: So, what you are saying is, before feminism, men never committed violence against women. No man ever beat his wife or mistress, or mistreated his children, rape was unheard of. Women just couldn’t vote, or go to school, or have decent jobs, or fully own property, that’s all — which, of course, (according to you) insured strong families, stability, and happiness. Well, the happiness of men, hopefully, but it’s the only one that matters, right? It was paradise, I’m sure. Now that women have fought for the right to vote, for equal civil rights, for educational and professional opportunity and for full legal personhood, “ordinary men” are compelled — COMPELLED, I tell ya — to fight back, and kill and rape and maim in the righteous struggle to take back the things that should belong to men alone. And having made such an argument, you have the temerity to claim that the MRM is not violent.

Saying that the movement for the quality of women is causing violence against women is exactly like that well-worn argument that the Civil Rights Movement and desegregation were to blame for violence against blacks.

MachoMachoMan
MachoMachoMan
10 years ago

What the man did was out there insane I do not think so .People do have a breaking point .Lets say we told every black man with a felony record you can’t ever rent a hud or or live in a decent apartment .What would they be doing exactly what there doing now .

We treat people bad and they will act up .We all know dam well that a man that lost his $50,000 a year job can’t make a living on $7.25 and hour .In 1996 I was getting paid $9.50 I was 18 then I am 33 employers are wanting to pay me $7.25 and hour .

I went to prison trying to be a man trying to be a provider working to jobs and even selling fake drugs to tourist at night hey I was a kid .I never wanted to sell anyone the real stuff and I am serious I had plenty of connnections back then .

I have found that life has no purpose of men or shall I say GROWN MEN can work and cant even live in the local ghetto .Personally I’d rather be shot dead like an animal to spend my life liivng with my mother and father .I do not mind being a dishwasher my entire life but if I cant be independent why work .

People are eventaullly not going to care about selling drugs or stealing people are indeed going to let send soceity a message this is inevitable .Look at any city of country where the men are so poor they cant even have a adquate relationship and you have not potential for problems you already have a serious problem .I hope not to be here when the shit hits the fan .

What I say is not due to my anger towards women .I dream alot about things points corrdinates numbers which sometimes do not come out so clear .I see places people and events before they happen at time .

I will say this that men are in store for a real treat men are going to be bashed alot more reduced alot more .Revolutions will occur and people in many areas will be so enraged at teh system that it will be normal to see a women brains bashed out in malls ,streets and even in public ..Most of these men will not be gay at all people will become sick through the rapid modernization and system of communism which will control the masses .When ever you see townand cities full of men livign with mom and pop that is a sign that of inequality when there is so much work to do in every community there is no lack of trees to build homes.

Anyone can unload 900 rpm or do something really stupid but people are not doing that here .Because overall man is good felons are good Vets that fough and serves for our country but no sleep under bridges are good..

So far the statistic on how many men have access to affordable housing will not be released to the public through the freedom of information act.Why is this because if men knew what is going on theyd flip out .Men are behind by many years .Its not going to take millions to fix the problem its going to 100’s of millions of dollars and perhaps even billions for a global movement .

II hope that men everywhere by this book from 1945 its been reprinted by Robert Hick

its called The Masculine Journey By Robert Hicks.

Its changed my life and I am not a christian but tis a christian book written I guess what you can say a Manist he supports Manism –MENS RIGHTS .

If men can not even live in the ghettos of Detriot life serves no purpose .
Killing to make a point like this man did in the article is not wise but perhaps his anger will show the legal system that if you take a mans livilhood away you take away his dignity and when a man has no digntiy left he may start shooting people with a extremely clear conscious .Let us not turn to ways such as what this man did .Killing is wrong .Life is sacred .Perhaps my dreams are real perhaps it is not .

I hope my dream are not real I wish no human to be harmed we have not reached a stage yet where men have lost that much dignity we are the road though .Do not think your all alone and do not feel hopeless and commit suicuide like other men dignity is worth living for .We are here to live .

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

Why does Macho man punctuate like Samuel? XD

ONE MORE! 😀

Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
10 years ago

Why does Macho man punctuate like Samuel? XD

From now on I’m going to start with the assumption that every new troll is a sockpuppet, and let them prove me wrong.

Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel
10 years ago

Ooops, blockquote FAIL on my part. That second paragraph was all me.

And Ami, sorry to push you off the sidebar. If you’re really nice maybe David will give you your own 😉

KathleenB
KathleenB
10 years ago

From now on I’m going to start with the assumption that every new troll is a sockpuppet, and let them prove me wrong.

We could have a drinking game! Or a bet pool – with a little side action on when MRAL is gonna have an anger induced apoplexy.

monkeyman
monkeyman
10 years ago

MachoMan’s threats are just that- threats. Give me what I want or else. He fails to see that there is absolutely no way to negotiate with an attitude like that. He could actually DO the activist work… especially since he has time on his hands. But threats are easier, right?

MRA’s are so quick to use the threat of violence in hopes of cowering women into submission. I’m always amazed by their assumption that they have a monopoly on violence in the hypothetical “revolution”. Doesn’t the existence of firearms pretty much level the playing field? So, guys, why don’t you drop the lame whiny threats. You’re alienating potential allies.***

*** I do not advocate violence in any way.

NullPointer
NullPointer
10 years ago

MachoMachoMan–dude, it’s punctuation mark, then space. See, doesn’t this look nicer?

revspinnaker
10 years ago

Saw the post, “NOW helps mom charged in drownings” and decided to look up the story. I couldn’t find it, but I admit I gave up after about 18 pages of maternal drowning stories. There sure are alot of mothers who drown their children. No one wants to talk about that kind of domestic violence.