Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.
It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.
Take this query, recently posted there:
My suggestion?
Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.
So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.
Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.
But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?
But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”
Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.
Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.
Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.
Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale); he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.
But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.
So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her! Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)
Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.
And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.
In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape. A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.
Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.
The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:
Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.
But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”
They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much a formula for date rape.
I was going to say something to Johnny_B along the lines of, “You do realize that not every woman asking you out would be someone you find attractive, right?” but seems like everybody else has it covered.
Also glad that other commentators have expressed that women can haz social problems too. Go Team Manboobz!
Johnny_B,
Not at all. What I meant was that simply touching someone, when you have no indication they’d approve of being touched, is not good. And it’s certainly not good if the other person is actively showing that you are, in some way, bothering them. Or if you haven’t been talking long enough to gauge whether they like you.
So, you know, touch someone if they seem like they want to be touched, sure (and accept that you might get it wrong), but “Hey wanna have coffee sometime? *touch*” is just…not kosher.
We know you’re a-reality, Johnny. Here’s the difference: A guy will almost never be rejected because he is a guy asking women out (I say almost because there are lesbians.). A woman will be rejected for the very act of asking women out.
Women face rejection *FREQUENTLY* because of existing social rules; not being asked out? That’s rejection when you’re conditioned not to ask. And if you do ask, you can get rejected and treated like a freak for asking. Even the worst of it for men, Nerds, are ‘freaks’ for reasons not connected to asking women out. Creepy people are creepy in their *manner* of asking, not for doing it ever. Ugly guys are actually given substantial latitude, compared to ugly women. There’s a reason Romance with an ugly dude involves appreciating his inner qualities, and romance with an ugly woman involves the woman really being beautiful all along.
Want women with social problems? Manboobz got your back! ;p
Rutee: Again, that’s never been my experience (“A woman dare ask out a man? Scandalous! We must stone the harlot, brethren!”) but if attitudes like that do exist, I do think it’s a shame and wish they didn’t. I’d personally appreciate a woman who was interested in me being forthright about it, instead of playing coy and waiting for me to notice, then acting like I rejected her if I don’t.
Ugly guys are actually given substantial latitude, compared to ugly women. There’s a reason Romance with an ugly dude involves appreciating his inner qualities, and romance with an ugly woman involves the woman really being beautiful all along.
Heh, no argument there.
“And at the risk of repeating myself, I’ll say that this would become less of a problem if more women were willing to approach/initiate…
…I don’t know, I bet 9 guys out of 10 would be thrilled if women were more forward about their intentions. It’s nice to feel desired sometimes and not always playing the pursuer, you know?”
You know, one point that’s rarely examined in these types of discussions is that slut-shaming aside (and regardless of your personal experience Johnny_B the shaming of forward women is very real if often very subtle) quite a bit of mainstream conventional advice tells women that men don’t like to be pursued. More specifically, young women are told that men like “the chase” and don’t want anything that comes too easily.
We’re told to find subtle, i.e. “coy”, ways of making our interest known lest the man in question feel pressured or be put off. We’re told to be interested but never aggressive, to act a little shy; to indicate availability but fall just short of enthusiasm. And this advice is given out by a lot of women (see Susan Walsh-types) and men who are fairly successful with women and rarely consider shy men and their difficulties with social interaction.
Conventional, mainstream dating advice for women is heavy on the “learn to flirt without being too forward,” and a lot of the “coyness” derided by men comes from women who, you guessed it, are having their own issues learning how to approach, flirt subtly but definitively, and so forth.
Women have a hard time with this shit too.
“Women face rejection *FREQUENTLY* because of existing social rules; not being asked out? That’s rejection when you’re conditioned not to ask.”
This is the point that MRA types always gloss over when they express outrage that women have “all of the power” in the dating scene. In the most traditional setting, the guy chooses who he’s attracted to and who he wants to approach. Once a particular woman is deemed “dateable,” and approached, she is then allowed in kind to make HER choice about whether she wants to accept. BOTH parties are making a choice here. Yes, the woman’s choice happens when they are face to face. But as I’ve already said, the reason women are still cast as the ones who get pursued comes from very old fashioned social conditioning and it will take a major cultural shift to make that go away.
And try being a woman who goes out again and again and can’t even get a guy to look at her, let alone want to talk about her. She is also suffering from rejection and it hurts, too. My only point in saying this is to express that *everyone* goes through this emotional turmoil. This shouldn’t be a BS “battle of the sexes” issue where one gender is good and the other is bad. Because everyone experiences this, whether they are male or female.
Want to talk “to” her, not “about” her. Geez, what is my problem today?
Hmm, “coffee” to me implies at least the possibility that he’s aware the outcome may be him deciding there’s no there there and bailing. It’s not like he’s asking *n *n *l*v*t*r *t f**r *n th* m*rn*ng. I’m not clear about the distinction Bagelsan is drawing between giving her a note and asking. Is it that a note creates the paradox that in order to turn him down she has to extend their interaction whereas if he asks in person she can say “no” and that’ll be the end of it?
But I get the sense he’s really asking “how can I ask without running the risk of being turned down?”
Johnny:
I don’t see the parallel.
If David’s advice had been “well, you have to ask her, not just send out mind waves,” that would be equivalent to your useless business advice (though less useless, I suspect). But there is practical advice in the post. And the comments.
I feel bad pouncing here becaue you’re actually being reasonable about this, but this, yeesh.
Well … I’m fairly sure Johnny isn’t endorsing the cultural hangups.. And I don’t think an unattractive woman approaching should be any worse than an unattractive man approaching, though I am aware of the jokes. I’m certainly not going to throw up my hands and say “well, it doesn’t work now, clearly it’s impossible.” Bagelsan’s — whom I don’t mean to pick on, really! — is a decent response when men claim they wouldn’t mind being sexually harassed or sexually assaulted; less so when the claim is made about being non-threateningly hit on.
And I question her “conventionally.” I’ll respond better to an approach from an attractive-to-me woman than one from an unattractive-to-me woman, but (in theory) that doesn’t exactly correspond with “conventionally attractive.”
Honestly, I might be charmed by the coffee note–I think coffee only means “sex” if it’s at someone’s home; coffee at a cafe is a perfectly reasonable get-to-know-you scenario.
However, he needs to be prepared to sound reasonable when he’s at the cafe with her, and I’m not convinced he’ll be able to talk to her there if he can’t do it now.
Oh blockquotes. Why are you so hard to type. >.<
I wouldn’t mind a note as a first approach or a casual touch. People have different styles of communication. Some folks are shy, some are akward…and some are assholes. Perhaps I’m comfortable saying this because I am six feet tall and have taught self defense for 15 years. Generally, but not always, men have backed off when I’ve been clear about not being interested. (I’ve been lurking for some time….enjoying the posts)
“Well … I’m fairly sure Johnny isn’t endorsing the cultural hangups.”
In general during these conversations, endorsing them is not the problem. It’s the fact that they refuse to even acknowledge that it’s even part of the equation.
OMFG what friggin douchebags! I know that they are out there…I KNOW this because I have been at the tender mercies of 7 different men that I was either on a date with, dating or was considering dating (and one of them I was married to) that decided my No or my Stop was LMR and they just had to power through that to get to what they….I mean, I really wanted…because how could I possibly know what I want…I am just a girl and they are big strong men who have rights, you know. This sickens me. This is what’s wrong with the world….or at least one of the many things wrong with the world.
Thank you David for shining a light on these fuckers. I have “press this”d this and linked it from my page. Hope you don’t mind.
Lucky
‘And try being a woman who goes out again and again and can’t even get a guy to look at her, let alone want to talk to her. She is also suffering from rejection and it hurts, too. My only point in saying this is to express that *everyone* goes through this emotional turmoil. This shouldn’t be a BS “battle of the sexes” issue where one gender is good and the other is bad. Because everyone experiences this, whether they are male or female.’
This woman is me. Since I am 36 and very dominant, I am ignored or seen as horrifying.
Or, even better, I get hit on by the nastiest, dirtiest, slimiest, most toothless, strung out on heroin guys in the bar. Seriously. Last night I had not one but TWO drunk-ass heroin junkies try to buy me a drink/get my number. They kept trying to touch me and tell me how ‘beautiful’ I am. Ugh. Nice to know that these are, apparently, the highest quality men I can attract. /s
Yeah, not that many options for public socializing in this town that doesn’t involve alcohol and/or smug, misogynist, know-it-all ‘progressive/liberal’ doods.
Has anyone else guessed that Johnny B. is really Ion?
Yes.
Ah. Well, I’m not as clever as I thought I was. Wouldn’t be the first time, won’t be the last. 🙂
That’s a negative way of looking at it. Maybe it’s the others who are more clever than you thought they were? 😉
@blitzgal
“If you’re in the same class with someone who you would like to get to know better, you have the perfect opening lines to strike up a conversation with her.”
But saintly pictured one, since all women are individuals, any woman might find that behavior creepy. As the gang has recently discussed, the place or approach doesn’t matter. Any man can give off a “creepy” vibe.
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@Bagelsan
“I think I’d be okay with inviting/getting invited to coffee, but verbally. Then it’s also easier to be clear that you honestly mean coffee the beverage-consumed-fully-clothed-in-a-public-cafe rather than “coffee.”
Who doesn’t clearly say, “they honestly mean coffee the beverage-consumed-fully-clothed-in-a-public-cafe?” Normally followed by, “I see you as an individual human with thoughts of your own.”
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@shesaidwut
“To be honest, I don’t believe for a second that that’s down to someone being “clueless”. The kind of body language that comes with disinterest is often very loud. If a guy can’t realize that a girl leaning away from him means she’s not interested, he’s got other problems than simple cluelessness.”
But as some of you made clear “any” contact might make a person uncomfortable, the “leaning away” might just a contact phobia and not disinterest.
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@blitzgal
“And I’ll say that more women would be willing to approach/initiate if our culture did not have serious hangups about sexually confident women.”
Why do you “assume” it’s “culture?” Do you mean to tell me every culture, everywhere in history has somehow had the same “culture?” Quick everyone, go run to Wikipedia to find the exception to the rule to prove me wrong.
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@Bagelsan
“Guys have a responsibility to educate themselves to a bare minimum of social competence before inflicting themselves on women.”
Luckily women are socially perfect and don’t “inflict” themselves upon men.
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@blitzgal
“It will only help them in the end, viewing us as actual people who have all the same thoughts and feelings that they do.”
But feminism is all about viewing women as actual people for “not” having the same thoughts and feelings as each other.
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@shesaidwut
“Really, I see that whole “But I’m too afraid to do anything!” spiel a lot, and that’s ridiculous. If girls always react to you like you’re creepy, the problem is you, not them. If they don’t always react to you like you’re creepy, you shouldn’t always be too afraid.”
Yet you proudly comment on being “afraid” to make a move when you said, “I flirted with my husband a lot and I’m autistic and I have very low-confidence.” You flirted and waited for a man to go out on a limb because you feared rejection, then have the audacity to call men cowards. Then you go on to explain about men being creepy, always “creepy.” Maybe it’s not men at fault for being “creepy” but women at fault for being “bitchy.” Or is every situation always mens fault?
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@blitzgal
“So now let’s talk about the reality where sexually confident women are branded whores and slut shamed.”
Sexually confident? Where’d that come from? I thought sex wasn’t “assumed” to be on the table? I thought it was a cup of java fully clothed in a public place? What’s the “confidence” all about. Are ya confident you’re good at sex, confident you can get some?
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@shesaidwut
“So, you know, touch someone if they seem like they want to be touched, sure (and accept that you might get it wrong), but “Hey wanna have coffee sometime? *touch*” is just…not kosher.”
Of course if you read the “signs” wrong you’ll be creepy for touching, or you might be considered “not interested” for not touching.
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@blitzgal
“This shouldn’t be a BS “battle of the sexes” issue where one gender is good and the other is bad.”
Women, not men, initiated the “battle of the sexes.” They continually up the ante as everyone of you does. They run to the State and use that violence politically, economically and socially to gain an advantage,(power).
This year in schools, the fruits of Title IX will be fully felt as any negative feeling any woman has towards any man will automatically be considered sexual harrassment that must be dealt with. Title IX not only has it’s own “police force” but if any woman lodges a complaint against any man whom she see’s as sexually harrasing another woman, (not even herself), that man will be placed in a kangaroo court where he isn’t permitted to confront his accuser, and the “preponderance of evidence” will be the word of the accuser he’s unable to confront. I dunno, do you think men as a whole, will love women as a whole for siding with the State?
NWOslave, did you miss the little “our” in the culture comment? Yes, yes you did, you fake engineer. Let’s add reading comprehension to the list of things your incapable of doing.
NWO didn’t single me out? I must be off my game!
I would totally say this to a dude. 😀