Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.
It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.
Take this query, recently posted there:
My suggestion?
Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.
So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.
Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.
But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?
But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”
Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.
Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.
Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.
Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale); he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.
But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.
So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her! Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)
Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.
And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.
In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape. A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.
Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.
The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:
Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.
But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”
They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much a formula for date rape.
Ithiliana Friedan was radical. She was a WGTOW
Ithilian and women out there what is a WGTOW? to you?
A wgtow could be a woman who chooses to go her own way to be single, to not have kids, to go against the norms of society.To be a leader to act masculine to not to answer to anyone,to be independent of a man. What is a WGTOW?Tell me ladies
Samuel: What I meant was Health really.
Then say health. Because my spirtuality has nothing to do with my sex life.
My health… has nothing to do with my spirituality.
Speaking of health, having at least two orgasms a week is one of the best ways to reduce your risk of prostate cancer.
A man is expected to have lots of heterosexual sex and always to be on the chase for it. If he’s not, he’s not a “real man”, and considered less masculine. This pressure can make sex a lot less pleasurable.
That is why (temporary) celibacy can be so liberating for a man. Then you have the time to sort out inner desire from outside pressure, feel secure in your masculity without the need to be validated by sex and know that when you have sex, it is because you really want it</i.
This is nonsense.
Some men, sure; because people are not cookie cutter identical.
But not all men. Saving your sperm, and worrying about your chakras and all that may give you some sort of focus. Me, I get the same thing from sharpning knives, playing music, cooking, planning meals, and… sex.
I’m a dude and have it in me to be a feral pit bull.Men have a very powerful sex drive.
I’m a man too. The pit bull*… has nothing to do with sex, or lack thereof.
As to your being a scorpio, it’s right up there with chakras and saving your semen… if it makes you feel better about yourself, power to you, but it has no basis in fact.
kristin: Astrologers have known about the precessional shift for centuries, and it’s, “adjusted for. He is a Scorpio.
*re pit bulls, they are wonderful people dogs. They do need a lot of socialising to be able to play well with other dogs, since they were bred to be used in dog fights. One of the things the breeders did was to cull dogs which showed aggression toward humans, which makes it very hard to train them to be “attack dogs” and so the one’s which have been so trained tend to be psychologically traumatised.
You didn’t fucking answer what I said.
You called Molly Ren, a human being, the living image of the God you claim to worship, a fucktoy with a pulse because she has sex and blogs about it. You called Ozy, likewise human, likewise divine, devoid of ethics because she’s had sex nine times in her life. But when Doctress Julia didn’t want to get hit on by junkies, you spin out into a frothing rage, saying she’s above herself, that she should take what she’s given. And when women don’t put out, you say they’re “teasing men” and deserve to get raped. Women literally can’t win with you.
Your beliefs are evil. Justify yourself, if you can.
“I am so tired with people dissing pitbulls. They can be lovely dogs, though they need a lot of training.”
“And you know, having worked in animal rescue the past fifteen years or so, I am so tired of manly balled manly men projecting all this crap on “pit bulls” (which is not even an actual breed! a number of breeds are sometimes called this), and all the abuse which comes in the wake of those projections–the various bull dogs and bull terriers I’ve met are all lovely dogs who climb in my lap and lick my ears and give me smoochies.”
YES!!!
I had a wonderful pit/lab mix for fourteen years and she was one of the best dogs I’ve ever had. Someone tried to make her a fighting dog, and when it didn’t work they threw her out of a car and broke her leg. Fourteen years, and the only time she was ever aggressive with dogs OR people was when a dog attacked her and her companion pooch – she didn’t hurt the attacking dog, just made it clear to him that he would if he took one more step towards her.
You’re just stupid.
the stupid have it in them to be just. so far, nwoslave has not demonstrated that capacity.
Now tell us again, Samuel, about how you used to be sexist a month ago but totally aren’t anymore.
And then tell us about how you want to provide therapy and advice for people who have real-life problems in their relationships.
Samuel: See what I mean about NWO? We didn’t even get into the fact that Jews only maintain thier numbers through massive proselytisation.
Do you have a better term? Something short, easy to spell, that’s punchy and descriptive? I like fuckwit, but stupid seems to fit, too.
People here don’t know astrology? There is some truth to reading charts. I just mention I am a Scorpio.
I mean Feral dogs not Pit bull. I love dogs. I am only using a metaphor?
I can only speak for myself, but I do not feel in the least bit threatened by celibate men. I have a feeling this is the majority position. Why on earth would women feel threatened by celibate men? What are you doing to us by being celibate? How can your celibacy possibly harm us? This is positively baffling.
And thanks for admitting that you feel threatened by women. It was already abundantly clear, but it’s nice to be open about these things.
Samuel: If you mean feral, say feral, for fuck’s sake. If you can’t even use the words you mean, how the fuck do you expect to have any kind of communication?
Samuel: People here don’t know astrology?
Some of us do, that’s why we dismiss it.
No there isn’t.
I don’t know, are you?
Your English is terrible. Just saying.
“I can only speak for myself, but I do not feel in the least bit threatened by celibate men. I have a feeling this is the majority position. Why on earth would women feel threatened by celibate men? What are you doing to us by being celibate? How can your celibacy possibly harm us? This is positively baffling.”
I think it can “harm us” in the sense that we’re not getting all his manly manly sperm. This is supposed to make us feel bad, or something.
Its funny Kristine read my blog on Gay men. I have heard from women I am not kidding that they feel threatened by gay men or celibate men inasmuch as they have no sexual power over men. No matter how sexy a woman is how hot she is she has no power over a gay man.
A celibate man may be included in this,
Listen I see your gravatar photo,Kristine and if it is not fake you are a beautiful woman.
Do you really have to post your picture on a gravatar? It is a threat to me but I see in your picture a human being with fears,hurts,joys,love and hapiness,hobbies.Not a sexual object I want to have sex with. I am i n a precarious position
Oh.
Samuel, I’m already pregnant. Your manly manly sperm is no good to me. I can’t get pregnant again for at least another six months and will probably wait a good deal longer than that, and I think I’ll stick with my husband’s sperm if that’s OK with you thank you very much.
“Do you really have to post your picture on a gravatar? It is a threat to me but I see in your picture a human being with fears,hurts,joys,love and hapiness,hobbies.Not a sexual object I want to have sex with. I am i n a precarious position”
Creepiest thing I’ve read on Man Boobz, hands down.
Oh, come on! I kind of love this new Samuelized speech. Let me try!
What I’ve never been able to understand is why bacon is so uncomfortable to wear as pants and yet so voluptuous in the springtime.
Of course, what I mean by “what I’ve never been able to understand is why” is “tonight.”
And by “bacon” I mean me.
And by “uncomfortable to wear” I mean “having difficulties.”
And of course “as pants” means “not making fun of Samuel.”
And the rest of it was a typo, and I actually just meant to repeat that I really find Samuel ridiculous.
Jesus Christ. Why would I want to have power over a gay man, Sammy? What do you think women are doing? Do you think we walk around thinking, “I’m going to get that guy over there all worked up just for the hell of it!”? You say you see me as a human being with “fears,hurts,joys,love and hapiness,hobbies” but you don’t seem to understand that MY EXISTENCE DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND GIVING MEN BONERS, WHETHER FOR GOOD OR FOR EVIL.
I only very rarely think about giving men boners, to be honest.
Tell you what, if my headshot (that’s what my gravatar is, it’s the same picture I use in pretty much all my profiles, because it’s my goddamn headshot and I want to be recognizable on the internet) gives me power over you, can I use that power to make you go away? Because your last post was seriously creepy.
Kristin this is absolutely why I absolutely absolutely absolutely absolutely refuse to cave in to objectifying women. I lose my focus. I choose celibacy. I would rather die than lose my celibacy and the radiance and stength I have now. I am bisexual by the way Kristin
No one here is responsible for your penis but you, bucko. If you can’t control it, you shouldn’t be in a feminist space – you know, what with all the WOMEN around!
Kristinmh for me to admit as a man I am bisexual is freeing. I am attracted to men too So I am choosing not to objectify men as well Kristinmh it is not just women. I have hung out with Gay men Kristin.Iove gay men. I feel safe around gay men in a way.NOMAS is gay affirmative.Gay men and straight men are joining forces as NOMAS
Holeeeeee fuck.
Oh my fucking GODS, you need to stop this. It is creepy and disgusting and… lots of other bad things I can’t find words for right now. No one wants to know who or what turns you on, no one cares what turns you on or if you can’t control your erections. JUST STOP!