Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.
It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.
Take this query, recently posted there:
My suggestion?
Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.
So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.
Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.
But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?
But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”
Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.
Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.
Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.
Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale); he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.
But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.
So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her! Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)
Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.
And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.
In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape. A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.
Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.
The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:
Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.
But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”
They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much a formula for date rape.
Up here in Montreal you get the full on double cheek kiss along with your handshake/hug.
I can’t imagine how tough that must be for people who aren’t into casual contact!
Guys have a responsibility to educate themselves to a bare minimum of social competence before inflicting themselves on women.
And at the risk of repeating myself, I’ll say that this would become less of a problem if more women were willing to approach/initiate…
And don’t call me Shirley!
(sorry, I had to)
What if I said it while making eye contact and stroking your arm? Better? ;D
In all of them (save the Orthodox Jewish), the rule on touch is largely, “ask first”.
Maybe I’m reading this wrong, but asking someone whether they mind being touched sounds creepier to me than an actual (friendly) touch… ymmv.
And at the risk of repeating myself, I’ll say that this would become less of a problem if more women were willing to approach/initiate…
1: repeating yourself?
2: I’ve never had much problem with women approaching/initiating. Which is good, because I have often been pretty clueless about them being interested, and so would never have managed to end up in bed with them.
*calls Snowy Shirley*
Why not? it suits you Shirley! (It is a gender neutral name anyway)
“And at the risk of repeating myself, I’ll say that this would become less of a problem if more women were willing to approach/initiate…”
And I’ll say that more women would be willing to approach/initiate if our culture did not have serious hangups about sexually confident women.
My mileage obviously does vary.
And it’s not that I’m not in very touch oriented cultures, but even there it’s the case that there are people I am comfortable having touch me, and people I’m not.
Having one of the latter decide to be, “friendly” is going to lead to that person ending up embarrassed when I tell them not to do that. It’s going to get more embarrassing if I have to repeat it, and add the phrase, “ever again.”
Of course. And I also think that women should educate themselves as well — but we seem to tend to work harder on that than a lot of guys do. If geeky shy boys would spend half as much time on self-improvement projects as their female peers everyone would be much happier and laid-er. And ladies would be more likely to approach them, too, because they would be overall more attractive people (and they’d actually notice if/when they were approached to boot!)
And I’ll say that more women would be willing to approach/initiate if our culture did not have serious hangups about sexually confident women.
I don’t know, I bet 9 guys out of 10 would be thrilled if women were more forward about their intentions. It’s nice to feel desired sometimes and not always playing the pursuer, you know?
I keep seeing people say that. And I keep seeing it not work. Outside of some specific subcultures, when my female friends try that.. the guys don’t respond well.
As a culture, women are supposed to be pursued. When they reverse the roles it’s unsettling.
Yeah, I think those 9 guys are usually imagining a conventionally hot girl (who they would love to hook up with) approaching them in an enjoyable way. When a woman they aren’t interested in tries it she gets a rather harsher reception (see: all jokes about horny fat/ugly/old women ever for starters.)
“True, but how are you ever supposed to escalate if you’re perpetually afraid that anything you do might potentially upset that person? Especially if they feel the same way? We’re not mind readers nor perfect interpreters of someone else’s body language. Best most of us can do is try something and have the sense to back off if it doesn’t work. If both partners are mature, functioning adults, a small faux-pas, recognized and admitted to in time, shouldn’t stand in the way of developing a relationship, and might be a better choice than what I can only call ‘cold politeness’.”
Oh, that excuse. Sorry, but that’s so much steaming bull. If a person likes you, they’ll warm to you. They’ll let you be close to them. If they like you enough that they’d let you touch them, they’ll flirt with you. They will. I flirted with my husband a lot and I’m autistic and I have very low-confidence.
Really, I see that whole “But I’m too afraid to do anything!” spiel a lot, and that’s ridiculous. If girls always react to you like you’re creepy, the problem is you, not them. If they don’t always react to you like you’re creepy, you shouldn’t always be too afraid.
Humans aren’t mind-readers, no, but most humans naturally and instinctively read others’ body language. Even I’ve learned. There’s really no excuse–no, not even being afraid–for neurotypical individuals to be unable to read each other.
“What if I said it while making eye contact and stroking your arm? Better? ;D”
Well, in that case I would be swept off my feet and immediately want to sleep with you of course! You player you!
“I don’t know, I bet 9 guys out of 10 would be thrilled if women were more forward about their intentions. It’s nice to feel desired sometimes and not always playing the pursuer, you know?”
This is beyond what guys say they want from women. Of course when speaking of it in abstract terms, you want a nice looking woman to walk up to you and ask you out.
So now let’s talk about the reality where sexually confident women are branded whores and slut shamed. If they are sexually assaulted, people talk about what she did to cause it. She is thought of as dirty and diseased. And many guys are intimidated by her forthrightness and reject any idea of being with her. Try to dispute that all you want, but for all of our culture’s apparent openness about sex, women who are open about enjoying it are vehemently shamed for it. We are still very much understood as the “gatekeepers” of sex, and until that part of our culture finally leaves the Middle Ages, you’ll find more women who initiate romantic contact.
Sorry, I meant “it won’t be until that part of our culture finally leaves the Middle Ages that you’ll find more women who initiate romantic contact.”
[quote]Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.[/quote]
I’d find that hilarious enough that for a stunt like that, I’d absolutely go out for coffee. But then, I’m strange like that.
I agree it seems a bit worthless, but shit, most of the people asking for this kind of advice online are so clueless that they’re the equivalent of a guy spending a thousand dollars on lottery tickets in a month asking you how to be successful in business. At that point “don’t spend so much on useless shit” seems to be not all that useless/redundant an advice.
On MTGSalvation (geek hangout extraordinaire) there were actually PUA commenters coming in and saying “that’s naive and wrongheaded and terrible advice” to my advice to the nerdy shy guys to “remember, women are rational people too who have their own perfectly rational motivations for what they do”. So yeah, I do feel “women are people” is apparently necessary to say, just like I had to say “Is it plugged in?” more times than I could count back when I did tech support.
I have a very cuddley group of friends, and yet somehow I manage to remember who’s up for cuddles and touching always, who likes hugs but not snuggling and who can’t stand hugs. Also who it is or isn’t acceptable to lightly hit, flirt with, kiss or discuss my sex life with.
Pecunium: Previous relationship and/or asking and/or positive body language that suggests that cuddling would be approved of, yes. Which makes me slightly less creepy than date-rape-guide-dude.
Bagelsan: Like the Conway studies, in which men imagining getting hit on on a street corner tended imagine a partner of Angelina Jolie-level hotness, and women tended to imagine a parter of Carrot Top-level hotness. 😛
That said, I’ve had very good reactions to asking guys out.
Yay we are both strange!
Same PUA on the Magic websites once said “If she’s actually being forward and asking you out, she must be doing that to every guy she meets and a dirty slutty bag of venereal diseases. Real women want men to take the initiative.”
Of course, I’m the one who eventually got banned, and he’s still giving terrible advice to geeky boys.
Yeah, I think those 9 guys are usually imagining a conventionally hot girl (who they would love to hook up with) approaching them in an enjoyable way. When a woman they aren’t interested in tries it she gets a rather harsher reception (see: all jokes about horny fat/ugly/old women ever for starters.)
But that’s more or less the same thing guys face now. See all jokes and stories about ugly guys, nerds, creeps, losers etc. Are you saying the rejection women face is/would be worse? I’m not sure I believe that.
So now let’s talk about the reality where sexually confident women are branded whores and slut shamed.
That hasn’t been my experience, but that doesn’t mean it’s not true sometimes. It’s old-fashioned, puritanical attitudes like that which hurt everybody in the end.
The first guy was just socially awkward. The advice offered up went from bad to worse. Whatever happened to suggesting he get to class a few minutes early, and then perhaps ask the girl something about the assignment, working in an introduction? After a few brief chats, she’d probably be open to grabbing some coffee during the break.
Practicing “kino” is creepy, but a lot of people do this unconsciously. Men tend to shift into more aggressive postures when talking to women they are interested in, and they will often lightly touch a woman to gauge her reaction. I’m not defending the guys who do this in a pushy way, but I do recognize that some men incorporate this into flirtation without really thinking about it. The key seems to be reading other people and respecting boundaries. Don’t touch someone you haven’t established *any* intimacy with, and be ready to back the hell off if she stiffens up or frowns or steps backward.
shesaidwut: sounds like we basically agree. Reading the other person is important, and you’ll (hopefully) know when it’s time to take things further/make a move. It just sounded earlier like you were saying it’s basically wrong to ever escalate because of a chance the other person might get freaked out. But as I said, even if you happen to do something inappropriate (because we can’t perfectly predict someone’s reaction, especially when we don’t know them well), if you’re both mature adults you should be able to move past it.