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If at first you don’t succeed, grope her

This might work, actually.

Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.

It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.

Take this query, recently posted there:

My suggestion?

Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.

So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.

Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.

But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?

But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”

Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.

Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.

Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.

Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale);  he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.

But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.

So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her!  Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)

Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.

And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.

In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape.  A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.

Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.

The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments  get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:

Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.

But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”

They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much  a formula for date rape.

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Magpie
13 years ago

Just for the record, I don’t mind if anyone assumes I’m a man. It’s just that samuel asked how I felt when I withheld sperm, and I can’t really answer that 🙂

KathleenB
KathleenB
13 years ago

Or, better yet, call 211 if your area has the service, you local Community Mental Health, or a nearby Department of Human Services – if they can’t help, they should be able to point you to those who can.

kristinmh
kristinmh
13 years ago

Kristinmh shut up stop it! your always mocking me. Ha ha.What I was actually not responding to you but to Rutee who thinks sex addiction is not real.

I don’t think sex addiction is real either!

Also, I will continue to mock you as long as you keep bringing up your Sperm Woo. You sound like a completely illiterate spambot version of Baden Powell.

As long as we’re asking for cookies, I had to stand in line at the grocery store today for a long time because it’s the day before Labour Day and everyone is stocking up for their barbecues. Yet I didn’t run amok and start braining my fellow shoppers with a large bag of frozen peas. If Sammy deserves a cookie, I deserve a fucking parade!

Bee
Bee
13 years ago

If Sammy deserves a cookie, I deserve a fucking parade!

He doesn’t. But I’ll make you an ice cream sundae, kristinmh. And you can have a pug. Mmmm, nice, relaxing pug.

Snowy
Snowy
13 years ago

You do indeed! *throws kristinmh a parade*

Molly Ren
13 years ago

“How can you tell Ozy isn’t ethical, because she’s had sex with nine people in her life? Nine people. As far as James Bond is concerned, that’s Thursday.”

Voip, you are full of win. *gives you a cookie too*

felixBC
felixBC
13 years ago

Samuel, that’s no way to stick a flounce. *sad face*
So, what happened a whole month ago that brought you to your new state of enlightenment? Please do tell us your story! It’s got to be a good one.

kristinmh
kristinmh
13 years ago

@Bee – I love pugs! I wanted to get a pug when we were first looking for dogs, but we found Madeline and stuck with Beagle/Bassets. My sister just gave me this book for my birthday:

http://www.amazon.ca/Knit-Your-Own-Easy-Follow/dp/1579128742

I plan on knitting a bunch of them (including the pug) and making a mobile for the baby. I don’t care what religion or sexual orientation zie winds up being, but zie must love dogs OR ELSE 😉

@Snowy – wheeeee! Are there going to be sailors???

redlocker
redlocker
13 years ago

“How can you tell Ozy isn’t ethical, because she’s had sex with nine people in her life? Nine people. As far as James Bond is concerned, that’s Thursday.”

Ozy, you should put this on your “The Critics Sound off” sidebar on your blog.

Pecunium
13 years ago

SamuelMagpie When I talk about “saving sperm” it is not just to make myself stronger. I mean your a dude, don’t you feel more focused after abstaining from sex with your wife and/or masturbation for even a few weeks/months?. I am not talking about an entire lifetime.

No.

I feel distracted, and over attentive to issues of sex. Having talked to a lot of priests… they say the same thing, even after years; even decades of practicing abstinence.

I HATE TO SHOUT.BUT I ASKED WOMEN ON THIS SITE TO RESPOND TO Shesaidwut COMMENT ON RAPE FROM HER PERSPECTIVE. THIS WAS ABOUT 90 MINUTES AGO.

Dude get over yourself. No one here is obliged to answer you. The closest anyone can come to that is Dave, because it’s his site.

However, spiritually when you sleep around with too many men ( I am not implying women here do that) but you sleeping with every other woman he slept with.

Nonsense. One’s spiritual relationships are one’s spiritual relationships. Again, you are imputing and abstract, and absolute, value to sex. I’ve had lots of partners. I am not, in any way, diminished in my sense of the spiritual. I might even go so far as to say, insofar as some of them were pretty intense, and meaningful, I am more spiritually enriched than if I’d only ever had one partner.

VoiP
VoiP
13 years ago

Voip, you are full of win. *gives you a cookie too*

I’ve been looking for an excuse to post this.

Magpie
13 years ago

voip, that is so cute :3

samuel2112
13 years ago

Kristinmh stated lso, I will continue to mock you as long as you keep bringing up your Sperm Woo. You sound like a completely illiterate spambot version of Baden Powell

What do you mean by sperm woo?what the heck is the term woo?

Pecunium
13 years ago

SamuelNWO said “But by law, your “feelings” at any particular point in time determine what constitutes sexual assault. Even retroactively. Womens law clearly states that any woman can “enthusiastically” have sex with a man and even years later suddenly “feel” that she was raped. Ayiyiyi, she could being enthusiastically swinging from the rafters like a crazed ape on PCP and still claim it was date rape years later

Dude you nailed it. That is why we MRA’s must stick together despite our individual MRA viewpoints.

Samuel… Let me clue you in… NWO is wrong. You can, as a rule, assume that anything he says is either misunderstood, or fractally incorrect.

He believes that The Illuminati are funding International Feminism, by way of the Rothschilds donating money to the UN.

He thinks Russian and Spanish use the same alphabet.

He believes that if we got rid of the Federal Reserve there would never be another financial crisis, because all such crises have been caused by the Fed.

He believes that the only way to make a legal contract is for the partie’s name to be listed in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS.

His beliefs on the law, and how women (and most men, for that matter) think, are no better.

If I say women are just tits and ass I am considered a male chauvinist pig. If I say I refuse to sexually objectify women anymore

The thing is… you say it, but you still do it. When you go on about how you need to save your seed because sex will ruin your focus, that’s treating women as objects.

When you say that women who have lots of sex, with lots of people, are diminished by it, that’s treating them as objects.

When you don’t think you can spend time alone with a woman without her latent sexuality causing you to pop wood, and so you won’t do it… that’s treating women as objects.

It’s not the lust dude, it’s the seeing them as things.

Rutee you are amazing. Sex is fucking dangerous.You can get STD’s.

Dude.. life is fucking fatal. If you do it right, fucking isn’t.

hellkell
hellkell
13 years ago

Woo: as in complete and utter nonsense. More or less anything you say can qualify as “woo.”

samuel2112
13 years ago

Precunium said “However, spiritually when you sleep around with too many men ( I am not implying women here do that) but you sleeping with every other woman he slept with.

Nonsense. One’s spiritual relationships are one’s spiritual relationships. Again, you are imputing and abstract, and absolute, value to sex. I’ve had lots of partners. I am not, in any way, diminished in my sense of the spiritual. I might even go so far as to say, insofar as some of them were pretty intense, and meaningful, I am more spiritually enriched than if I’d only ever had one partner.

What I meant was Health really. I mean when I said when you have sex with some person I am really talking about promiscuous sex you are sleeping with every person that person slept with.. I mean STD’s are real.You just have to be discerning.

Spearhafoc
13 years ago

Only at TWILIGHT! ahahahahahahah!

Otto Goetzi, the vampire from La Ville Vampire (1865) by Paul Féval, glows a phosphorescent green when he’s doing vampiry things.

As for the glowing eyes thing, it depends. Most vampire stories give some weird feature to the eyes. Both Dracula and Countess Sarah Kenyon (from the derivative-of-Dracula short story The Tomb of Sarah) have eyes that glow with red hellfire. Sir Francis Varney’s eyes are described as the ugliest feature on a terrifyingly ugly face, being unnaturally glassy and pale. Clarimonde, from the wonderful La Morte Amoureuse, has beautiful green eyes, but the pupils turn catlike in one scene when she’s overcome with bloodlust. Catlike eyes also featured in–

Nobody cares, do they?

samuel2112
13 years ago

Hellkell explained what woo is o me. I just feel very energetic and “sexy” and radiant when I aattempt to preserve sperm. I know it is just my opinion.Then when and if I have sex it is that more intense and special for me and the woman .

Hellkell a previous poster had this comment it may help clarify

A man is expected to have lots of heterosexual sex and always to be on the chase for it. If he’s not, he’s not a “real man”, and considered less masculine. This pressure can make sex a lot less pleasurable.

That is why (temporary) celibacy can be so liberating for a man. Then you have the time to sort out inner desire from outside pressure, feel secure in your masculity without the need to be validated by sex and know that when you have sex, it is because you really want it

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
13 years ago

I care – please keep going!

hellkell
hellkell
13 years ago

Samuel, I’m afraid you’ve confused me with someone who gives a shit about your sperm woo. Newsflash: I don’t, nor do I need you to explain your crackpot bullshit to me. Unlike you, I read for comprehension.

Pecunium
13 years ago

NWO: I wonder how many times men didn’t “feel” like it but did it anyways. Ya know why they didn’t consider it rape? Cause it’s not. Duh.

Some of us do consider it rape, because it is.

Molly Ren
13 years ago

Spearhafoc, I totally care. Have you ever read the Time Life: Enchanted World series? It’s full of awesome stuff like that. 😀

samuel2112
13 years ago

Precunium wrote
The thing is… you say it, but you still do it. When you go on about how you need to save your seed because sex will ruin your focus, that’s treating women as objects.

When you say that women who have lots of sex, with lots of people, are diminished by it, that’s treating them as objects.

When you don’t think you can spend time alone with a woman without her latent sexuality causing you to pop wood, and so you won’t do it… that’s treating women as objects.

It’s not the lust dude, it’s the seeing them as things

Brother I am still in the process of figuring this all out. My beliefs can change any day. The last thing I want to do is see women as a threat to my focus or celibacy . Then I should move to an Arabian country where women are covered all over inasmuch as their sexuality is a threat to Muslim men. I do not agree with requiring women to cover themselves like in some Muslim cultures. That is sexism

I’m a dude and have it in me to be a feral pit bull.Men have a very powerful sex drive. I am a scorpio.Scorpios are passionate. At this point in my life, I need to take a break from sex and focus on projects both career and personal I need to do. No offense,
I would rather keep the feral pit bull caged. I feel empowered when I am celibate just more energetic and radiant and alive. I cannot explain. It is how I see it.

In addition I do not have to worry about STD’s and constanly being consumed with thoughts of sex and getting laid and spending hours on dating sites or always hunting for women.
That is bondage. I feel free now. I am free.

I believe Monogamy can work with the right 2 people.

Dracula
Dracula
13 years ago

“Nobody cares, do they?”

I do!

kristinmh
kristinmh
13 years ago

Sammy, from The Skeptic’s Dictionary:

Woo-woo (or just plain woo) refers to ideas considered irrational or based on extremely flimsy evidence or that appeal to mysterious occult forces or powers.

In other words, “sperm woo” is short for “your claim that retaining sperm makes you more manly/sexy/have sparkly eyes is so much arrant nonsense”. And I’m not going to debate it with you. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, my friend, so either produce some amazing evidence (and just saying “Not ejaculating makes me awesome” is not actually evidence) or shut up about it.

Changing the subject, did you notice that Nobinayamu explained blockquote tags to you upthread? Just a hint, you might want to take her advice and start using them. It is extremely easy and makes posts where you quote another poster – i.e., virtually all of your posts – much easier to read. I mean, since you feel you can order us to respond to your posts and to critique your blog, it’s really the least you can do to master one or two HTML tags.

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