Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.
It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.
Take this query, recently posted there:
My suggestion?
Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.
So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.
Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.
But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?
But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”
Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.
Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.
Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.
Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale); he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.
But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.
So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her! Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)
Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.
And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.
In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape. A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.
Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.
The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:
Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.
But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”
They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much a formula for date rape.
Samuel 2112: I don’t give a flying fart what you think, nor do I believe that you know how all men think. I’m a Scorpio too, btw!
Did you read what I replied to you back on the last page about what you said about Betty Friedan?
DID YOU? I doubt it. Go read it.
Google “kyriarchy” and learn something.
I read Friedan’s work (and not just her first novel).
I was alive in 1963. I have been a feminist since 1982. I have a whole fucking library of feminist theory and literature. I teach it.
What in the wide green world do you think you have to offer me that I cannot get from my male colleagues if I need it?
Sorry: should not have said NOVEL. Not just her first feminist theory TFM. She wrote more than one, you know. I’ve also read a good deal of criticism of her work by (wait for it) other feminists.
If you read my above post celibacy for a guy makes him feel sex. All that testosterone that energy its like radiant its like a glow in the eyes of a celibate man.
Mine was always a hollow-eyed, haunted look, but whatevs…everyone’s different.
Also Sam: Do your own fucking research. Kyriarchy is not a difficult word to look up. Ten seconds on a search engine will get you a definition.
Also known for having eyes that glow.
Ithiliana nailed it on her research.She fuckin nailed it.Her research stated
Sex is most healthy in committed, monogamous, heterosexual relationships
There are “obvious” limits to healthy sexual expression (for example, masturbation more than once a day)
Choosing to use sex to feel better about yourself or to escape from problems is unhealthy.
You must have missed the ‘Michigan judge’ bit. Not surprising, your reading comprehension seems to go down dramatically when you’re not complementing your own writing.
Sam: You do not get to be the judge of healthy sexual expression for anyone but yourself. I do not get to be the judge of healthy sexual expression for anyone other than myself. See how this works? You being hetero does not mean the rest of the world has to be hetero. Or vanilla. Or kinky, for that matter.
Ithiliana nailed it on her research.She fuckin nailed it.Her research stated
Sex is most healthy in committed, monogamous, heterosexual relationships
I’m not sure exactly what research you mean, but I’m somewhere around 99.many nines% certain that Ithiliana did not say anything like that.
What’s unhealthy about homosexual relationships? (Other than the fact that maybe they’re hard to comprehend in a worldview where men are ravening beasts and women would rather they all were just celibate?)
Rutee you admantly claiming there is no physical addiction in sex addiction it is a hoax
sound like your in denial check it out
2.
neurochemicals like dopamine, norepinephrine and endorphins, producing a “rush” or a “high.” Sexual outlets are a very convenient and powerful way for the brain to feel pleasure and cope with boredom or mental burn-out. In fact, These activities are initially thought of as fun, exciting, and an easy and sometimes cheap way to get a thrill.
3.
Self-medication: Sexual outlets and behaviors release the same kinds of neurochemicals commonly experienced with illicit street drugs, alcohol and prescription drugs. What starts out as recreational use, can quickly lead to an escalating “drug of choice” for self-medication, escape. Over time, the brain learns that the quickest, easiest, most potent solution for feeling emotionally blasted (i.e. anger, stress, boredom, loneliness) is a sexual outlet. Once in this stage, the individual usually needs to go through a detox period and create some boundaries so the brain can get a break from the neurochemicals and start responding to “normal healthy pleasure” experiences.
4.
Dependency: As a person repeatedly uses sexual outlets as their primary strategy for pleasure, escape and coping, their brain begins to believe that this IS the way to deal with the stresses of life. They can get to the point where sexual outlets and behaviors become a central focus in their life. Their thoughts become dominated by sexual images, urges and fantasies. Increasing amounts of time, effort and energy are expended on anticipating and preparing for sexual outlets, engaging in them, or fighting the urge.
Their brain can begin to interpret sexual outlets as a “need” just like food or sleep. Over time, they become dependent on the chemical release they get through their sexual behaviors. They find themselves going back again and again, despite the negative consequences. Their brain is constantly seeking relief and is convinced that they must have their sexual outlets to survive—that they’ve got to get that neurochemical rush to be able to function in life. They try to stop, but they can’t. Just as those who struggle with drugs and alcohol, they have developed a chemical dependency.
5.
Replacement for real intimacy: We live in an age of people communicating by phone, texting, e-mail and chat rooms. This has reduced the amount of face-to-face communication, interaction and real “connection.” Add to this the fact that some people are shy or afraid of social settings, others are divorced or experiencing marital difficulties, some do not know how to maintain a long-term relationship and many are so caught up in the busyness of life that in their most important relationships, they become like “ships passing in the night.” All of this creates feelings of isolation, disconnectedness and loneliness. Many seek out pornography and cybersex chat rooms, paid sex, or quick, meaningless relationships as substitutes for real human connection, intimacy and relationships—to fill the “void” of loneliness. These sexual outlets offer a “fantasized relationship;” a semblance of being in love and having a real fulfilling partner relationship.
In this fantasy world, people imagine things like, “She wants just me.” “He adores me—I’m desired, craved, loved.” The person sees the experience as exclusive, private—“It’s just me and her.” The experience is seen as exciting, pleasurable, taboo, and privileged”—giving the façade of intimacy, exclusivity, loyalty and trust. And all of this is easy, convenient, instant and sometimes cheap or free. It does not require the risk and work of developing and nurturing a true intimate relationship.
The great tragedy of using these types of behaviors as a substitute for real intimacy is that these activities shut the person off from true emotional intimacy or real human interaction, making them feel even more isolated, disconnected and lonely, increasing their longing, pain and shame. This then drives them to seek out more of their behaviors, creating a deepening downward-spiraling isolation and loneliness cycle.
6.
Obsessive/Compulsive: Eventually the myriad negative consequences from unwanted sexual behaviors lead the individual to a resolution to “quit.” However, few are prepared for the extreme difficulty and “rebellion of the brain” when they attempt to stop. After repeated failures to cease the behavior, the individual starts to feel “out of control,” weak, discouraged and hopeless. He begins to fear the sexual thoughts, images or stimuli that he might encounter in everyday life.
Just like the OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) sufferer who is obsessed with a fear of germs, the struggling person tries to force any sexual thoughts or images out of their mind. But the more they try not to think about these things, the more they “force” themselves in. This is how every brain works. Avoidance of a feared or stressful thought quickly develops into an inability to stop thinking about the very thought one is trying to avoid. Soon their life becomes dominated by unwanted and intrusive thoughts and urges—obsessive thoughts and urges. They can only keep this incessant fighting and struggling up for so long until they are worn out and exhausted.
Then they discover that “giving in” to their unwanted sexual behaviors actually provides temporary relief—the chemical rush, the incredible release of “Finally I don’t have to fight these thoughts and urges anymore!” It’s like the OCD sufferer who obsesses over germs and then compulsively washes his hands to get relief from his obsessive thoughts. After giving in yet again to sexual urges, the individual feels guilt, regret and shame and the whole cycle of fighting and resisting starts over again. The more they try to fight it, the worse it gets. Finally, many just give in and give up, resigning themselves fully to their unwanted behaviors, which only accelerate in severity.
Regardless of your particular kind of unwanted sexual behaviors, it’s important to understand that there is a logical, reasonable, scientific explanation behind how you got caught up in these behaviors. You are NOT a freak, loser or lost cause. You are a good and valuable human being who has simply developed a dependency on an extremely powerful “brain-chemical-releasing activity” for escape, self-medication and pleasure. This is not unlike anyone who chooses alcohol, drugs, food or any other personal “drug-of-choice.” The good news is, just as with any other unwanted behavior or addiction, there is logical way out. You can break free. The Candeo program has been created to put you solidly on the recovery path where you can quickly begin moving forward.
About the author
13 Replies to The Brain Science of Unwanted Sexual Behaviors
1.
Reply
Edin
January 9, 2011 • 1:30 pm
Thank you Mark.
2.
Reply
Ginger
January 20, 2011 • 1:04 pm
My 18 year old granson was put out of his parents home because he would not abide by the rules concerning porn
He lives with us now and his activity has increased Any suggestions? He also has a functional form of Autism and ADHD
*
Reply
Mark Kastleman
January 20, 2011 • 1:49 pm
I am sorry to hear about your grandson. Unfortunately, this epidemic is having a devastating impact on our young people. I believe our Candeo program can be part of the solution for your grandson. Because it’s all online, you can actually go through the program with him. We have special training for you as his “Support People.” Because he has serious mental health issues that go beyond the pornography problem, I highly recommend also including a qualified therapist or counselor in this process. There are many mental health professionals who use the Candeo program in concert with their treatment plan for the individual. I hope we can be a part of helping you and your grandson move forward and find success.
3.
Reply
addicted to my own dopamine
January 27, 2011 • 9:25 pm
How do I “stop playing games with dopamine”?
4.
Reply
Mark S.
February 2, 2011 • 11:46 am
Would it be good to come out with it and tell my parents so they can help me? Or should I just try it on my own?
5.
Reply
Gino
February 8, 2011 • 2:52 am
If they are receptive to you and you feel they will help you, then by all means, tell them you want help. Tell them lovingly and honestly.
6.
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eter
March 19, 2011 • 4:12 am
i feel confident again…
7.
Reply
eva
March 21, 2011 • 12:50 am
That is absolutely true. once you have a determination and courage to face this unwanted behavior nothing is impossible. the key there is acceptance. once you accepted that you are a Sexual addict the healing is not impossible..you’re on your way to recovery.
8.
Reply
Dan
April 7, 2011 • 4:36 am
Hello. Thank you for explaining the cycle of sex addiction, however I have a problem. I am fifteen years of age, and have only recently been involved with watching hardcore pornography. The explanation and comments have really helped, and I am feeling much more hopeful and more myself, but I do not consider myself able to sign up for the program. I am the only person who knows about my addiction, and I feel ashamed and embarrassed about it. If I sign up, I do not have a regular income to pay for it and my parents would wonder where all my money has gone. I am sure there are many other people in a similar situation, perhaps even reading it right now. Is there an alternative, just as helpful?
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Reply
MarkH
April 7, 2011 • 3:37 pm
Dan – You’re absolutely right, there are a lot of people in your same situation. I just hope you know how positive of a situation you are in. The fact that you’re looking for help at your age is an indication of how successful your fight against sexual addiction will be. We understand there are a lot of youth as well as adults that just can’t afford the program for financial reasons or family issues. We are working hard to make changes to our program that will help people take even more steps into recovery, most of which will be free. Please check back with us.
All the best.
9.
Reply
Peter T.
May 28, 2011 • 11:47 am
Can it be strange if a young kid starts without even looking at porn or sex magazine/book/photo etc? Well I started at very young age without those. I wonder what made me start it at that time, and it couldn’t stop.
10.
Reply
Jared
June 14, 2011 • 10:54 am
This information is incredibly uplifting. It is a relief to know that good people are making a way to overcome these overpowering addictions. Like Dan, I don’t think I can pay for the full program and would love to know about any free materials.
11.
Reply
robert
June 17, 2011 • 1:26 am
i’m 35 and i have masturbated since i was very little (like six years old, maybe). my parents are intellectuals and they have always made me have an intellectual life, though i have always wanted something different – based on skills, like sports, for instance, or car mechanics.
i have always been under my parents’ control and i have become some sort of sissy, not the man i have always wanted to become.
Several combined factors caused my desperate situation, and they have continuously worked since I was very little: masturbation, loneliness, the fact that the other kids rejected me because I came from a family of intellectuals, staying indoors all day long, the fact that I was forced to study in spite of my hating it.
In order to masturbate I used porn or my imagination, but since I was about 22 I have also used the internet. I have tried everything, even the most taboo kind of porn.
Though my parents are normal guys and love me, I deeply hate them for what I am now.
Masturbation has started to affect my health for a long time, both emotionally and physically. I hate myself so much I wish I had never been born. I can’t have a girlfriend or wife because I like masturbation more than normal sex. I’m weak, short and i can’t do any sports. I can’t attract girls and my life has absolutely no meaning, because I have become sort of a retard physically: for 16 years I was not able to get my driving license, do a sport or learn to play chords on the guitar, though god knows how hard I tried to do at least one of these things
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For fuck’s sake, don’t use your copy-paste buttons like that, Samuel. That’s just fucking rude to the people trying to read this thread.
SAMUEL: NO.
You are completely and totally wrong.
The MYTH of sexual addiction is the title of the section of an article by Dr. Klein in which he argues AGAINST against the ideas promoted by groups such as the one you talk about: he is completely and totally opposed to the idea of the MYTH (LIE) of sex addiction:
He is completely opposed to those statements that you quote above: he is quoting them and disagreeing with them. That happens in real writing.
I think some of the original formatting got lost, but look at what HE said which I emphasize as opposed to the QUOTED CRAP :
Klein, who I quoted above because BLOCK QUOTE shows quotation says that YOUR sex addiction movement is dangerous — and we should not be colluding (big word! means working with) “this destructive, life-denying force.”
My fucking god, you make my worst students look like they have the reading comprehension of a genius.
Sam: TL;DR (seriously, that a gigantic wall of text and I don’t feel like reading your bullshit).
Wow, it’s like watching a train wreck combined with Groundhog Day
Holly saidWhat’s unhealthy about homosexual relationships? (Other than the fact that maybe they’re hard to comprehend in a worldview where men are ravening beasts and women would rather they all were just celibate?)
that is such a homophobic statement.
Someone posted that I have no right to judge anyones sexuality. Same goes for me, You have no right to judge my views on sexuality
@Holly: thanks–you r right. I quoted an expert on the “myth” of sex addiction, and he had quoted the crap that Samuel orgasmed about (he lost a lot of sperm right there) from Sexaholids Anonymous in order to disagree with ! It’s a big long quote back one page, but yeah, Klein is totally against the myth of sex addiction and points to its ideological connections with right wing fundies in this country, and Sam’s ability to read is -100000000000000000000000.
damn html tags to all nine hells! the bit about masturbation should have closed the blockquote.
Someone posted that I have no right to judge anyones sexuality. Same goes for me, You have no right to judge my views on sexuality
…Were you BORN a sexist homophobe who can’t tell the difference between sex and rape and can’t talk to women because your boner might explode and you “respect” women too much to risk a bonersplosion by talking to them? (Also, were you born thinking that copy-pasting an entire blog post complete with comments and footer was remotely appropriate?) Is it an integral part of your personality, one that causes no harm to you but would cause you great harm to repress?
Because if so, I’ll refrain from judging your judging.
Otherwise, I guess I’m just an assholist. (One who participates in the oppression of assholes.)
“You have no right to judge my views on sexuality”
Your views are concerning dude. Doesn’t holding it in give you testicular cancer or something? O.o
Holly and everyone I apologize I did not mean to post the entire thread my bad I just meant to post this in response to rutee
neurochemicals like dopamine, norepinephrine and endorphins, producing a “rush” or a “high.” Sexual outlets are a very convenient and powerful way for the brain to feel pleasure and cope with boredom or mental burn-out. In fact, These activities are initially thought of as fun, exciting, and an easy and sometimes cheap way to get a thrill.
3.
Self-medication: Sexual outlets and behaviors release the same kinds of neurochemicals commonly experienced with illicit street drugs, alcohol and prescription drugs. What starts out as recreational use, can quickly lead to an escalating “drug of choice” for self-medication, escape. Over time, the brain learns that the quickest, easiest, most potent solution for feeling emotionally blasted (i.e. anger, stress, boredom, loneliness) is a sexual outlet. Once in this stage, the individual usually needs to go through a detox period and create some boundaries so the brain can get a break from the neurochemicals and start responding to “normal healthy pleasure” experiences.
4.
Dependency: As a person repeatedly uses sexual outlets as their primary strategy for pleasure, escape and coping, their brain begins to believe that this IS the way to deal with the stresses of life. They can get to the point where sexual outlets and behaviors become a central focus in their life. Their thoughts become dominated by sexual images, urges and fantasies. Increasing amounts of time, effort and energy are expended on anticipating and preparing for sexual outlets, engaging in them, or fighting the urge.
Lol, bonersplosion.
@Pam: Trufact! Vampires also have glowing eyes.
Or, wait, is that werewolves????
ithiliana: Okay, that’s just weird – I was just telling MrB about how our younger cat’s eyes are unusually reflective. Can give you quite a start to look up and see her standing in a shadow, eyes all glowing.
Kristinmh shut up stop it! your always mocking me. Ha ha.What I was actually not responding to you but to Rutee who thinks sex addiction is not real.
Bee asked amuel from the future: I’m curious again. During your extensive conversation with the NOMAS director in which you discussed starting your own local chapter, did you at any point tell him that you are a big sexist who can’t be in the same car as a woman for fear of getting a boner, and that as far as you know, homosexuality is something that men choose so that they don’t have to share their lifeforce with women? Or that you “fucking
love” well-known internet misogynists?
Bee I’ve mellowed out on that. That was a month ago. I am trying to learn hjow to be friends with women. Read my blog intro. How can I as a Buddhist disconnect and hate half the population? The NOMAS organization includes women look at the you tube video
If so, would you mind sharing what he said in response