Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.
It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.
Take this query, recently posted there:
My suggestion?
Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.
So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.
Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.
But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?
But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”
Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.
Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.
Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.
Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale); he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.
But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.
So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her! Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)
Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.
And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.
In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape. A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.
Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.
The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:
Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.
But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”
They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much a formula for date rape.
@ithiliana
“I don’t care about men.”
Thank you! Finally an honest feminist. At least the feminists of old were honest enough to admit they couldn’t give a damn about men and would more than happily have them hauled off to death camps. Not like the gutless wonders now a days who hide behind “laws” that do the same thing while proclaiming some egalitarian bullshit. None of that what about teh menz fake bullshit.
Samuel 2112: So you have apparently spent a month studying “feminism” and you think that qualifies you to lecture to a blog full of feminists? I have been reading/studying feminism since 1982; I teach feminism and gender courses at the university level, including graduate level. You have absolutely no idea wtf you are talking about.
Betty Friedan wrote The Feminine Mystique not the “feminist mystique.
Her work is not considered in the least radical in the history of feminist ideas, if by radical you mean looking to solve social problems by changing society from the “root:” her solution for white middle class suburban women who were unhappy was to hire someone to do the housework and look after the children while they went back to college. That meant, at that time, to hire women of color to take care of white children (a pretty old and oppressive system which has gone on for centuries in this country and continues today). She didn’t write/care about/acknowledge lesbians, or express any concern in that text (as does every human being except NWO, her ideas changed over the years) with women who didn’t want to get married and have children, nor did she in that work try to imagine any major systemic changes.
There were more radical women in US feminist history (and UK feminist history) way before Friedan: such as Charlotte Perkins Gilman whose works advocated communal (SOCIALIST) living and child care and work, and whose works on the economic systems that supported patriarchy were best sellers–of course, by Friedan’s time, Gilman’s work, life, and publications had been wiped out of the HIStorical records. As with most white feminists, she was unable to deal with issues that were important to women of color.
But there were more radical women than Friedan even in the 60s: google and read about Florynce Kennedy, Toni Cade Bambara, Robin Morgan, and Rita Mae Brown.
In other words, stop mansplaining feminism to a blog of feminists, it’s bloody irritating.
@ozymandias42
“Also, yes, I’m a slut. Nine sexual partners over here. I am not sure why you have contempt for me for it. There are a lot of things I do that have more moral weight than my vagina. If a person is kind, holds to their ethical beliefs, creates art, seeks the truth, runs a business that provides useful goods or services… that matters more than whom they fuck.”
Ozzy dearest, you wallow in shit and piss which you consider sex. Your blog consists of you talking about your pussy. You’re a millionaires daughter whose toughest choice is wether to wallow in piss or shit or both for this evenings festivities. You have no ethical beliefs. Your art is promoting menstrual finger painting. Your “truth” is whatever you “feel” at any given point in time. The “business” you run is talking about your pussy on your blog. You’re going to spend your entire life in college living off of daddies money. And you’re lecturing me?
Unless that’s AT THE SAME TIME I have a hard time considering that slutty. 😉
“It is true, according to the old law, the husband might give his wife moderate correction, because he is answerable for her misbehaviour; hence it was thought reasonable, to intrnst him, with a power, necessary to restrain the indiscretions of one, for whose conduct he was to be made responsible. ”
Today, men still responsible for Women choices but have absolutly no rigth to say anything. She decide to keep or not the baby but he must pay child suport for the women CHOICE. She choose to divorse and he must pay for her choice. She sleep around and have a child with some junky, the husband must pay for the little bastard. etc.
NWO: who were those feminist of old who wanted to haul men off to death camps? There is a huge difference between “not caring about men” and “wanting to kill all the men.”
In other words, citation needed.
What I mean by not caring about [heterosexual] men is that: I do not have sex with men (nor do I want to), and have not since 1982. My partner is a woman. My friends are women (and some gay men). I support myself, and do not need a man for any economic, spiritual, sexual, emotional, or any other need of any sort (well, except when we call to hire a plumber or electrician or roofer etc. they do tend to be men, but damn if there were women to hire, we’d hire them first-like our doctors) My feminist works tends to focus on women (and not only women-born-women, or straight women, or white women)–that is, in any given situation, I am most concerned with the women involved since they are the ones most likely to be oppressed (it differs from situation to situation–white women have more privilege in my professional area than many people of color–but the ones who are absolutely the worst treated in academia are women of color).
But I do not in any way advocate for killing men off, nor do I buy your “the laws are biassed in favor of women” bullshit–not nationally or locally (not in Texas, where I currently live and work). There are a number of feminist activities that I do not actively engage in–one person has only so much time–and those include anti-rape work, and the activism that works with men who are feminists (and men can be feminists–being a woman is not required). Again, it’s not because I want them killed (gee, NWO, I’m just a woman going my own way), but that I consider that in most situations any males around have most of the privilege and attention going to them, so they don’t need me, and I don’t want to have to put up with the whining that so many of them fall into these days.
IIthiliana Stated
I am 55 years old. I have spent a lot of years as a feminist, and one of the ways in which that shapes my life is that I refuse to submt to men telling me what to do–which you did, up above there, in all caps (which is considered very rude in internet communication).
I don’t spent a shitload of time talking about rape to and with men: I don’t care about men. I do not do my feminist work in the context of anti-rape activism for work–and I don’t fucking owe you or anybody else an explanation of my reasons for that decision, and for where I put my efforts in feminist work.
I am certainly not going to tell some dickbiscuit on the internet who has suddenly decided omg rape is horrible and erect penis penetrating woman is horrible (as if rape is limited to that, which it isn’t), and OMG what do YOU WIMMINZ think anything except beyond STFU and go spend some time reading all the feminist works on rape and rape culture and stop perpetrating the patriarchal heart that underlies rape culture which is the male assumption that you have a right to demand anything from women, from our bodies to our attention to our sympathies.
NWO SLAVE said in response Thank you! Finally an honest feminist. At least the feminists of old were honest enough to admit they couldn’t give a damn about men and would more than happily have them hauled off to death camps. Not like the gutless wonders now a days who hide behind “laws” that do the same thing while proclaiming some egalitarian bullshit. None of that what about teh menz fake bullshit.
NWO I am out of here. I tried to debate in a civil way my point of view and I am ignored and now this response from Ithiliana. Goodbye Women on manboobz. You women on manboobz are not feminists in the same vein as Ms. Betty Friedan and Ms. Gloria Steinem and Ms. Andrea Dworkin. Sheesh I am only 43 and was too young to remember these ladies but the newer feminists are no feminists like Ms. Friedan. Ms.Friedan would be displeased with all you women here on manboobz with your “slutwalk” version of feminism.
There are lots of women that would agree with me and my organization NOMAS
http://amangoinghisownway2112.wordpress.com/2011/09/03/toxic-masculinity/
@ithiliana
“There were more radical women in US feminist history (and UK feminist history) way before Friedan: such as Charlotte Perkins Gilman whose works advocated communal (SOCIALIST) living and child care and work, and whose works on the economic systems that supported patriarchy were best sellers–of course, by Friedan’s time, Gilman’s work, life, and publications had been wiped out of the HIStorical records. As with most white feminists, she was unable to deal with issues that were important to women of color.”
Third wave feminists have given black women the feminists utopia. It’s called the ghetto. It’s like 70% single mothers supported by the State. The black men spend their time in prison. Raised with Ozzy ethics by single moms. This is your utopia. Men disbarred from the family, the State footing the bills. Hillary Clinton, it takes a village to raise a child. Those folks are livin the feminist dream. That’s your socialism hard at work.
NWO: I am 33 years old and have never been raped. When I was younger, someone attempted to kidnap and (I would presume) assault me, and did expose himself to me, but I’ve never been raped. I’ve been in college for… eh, quite a few years, including three in the dorms, and was never raped. I am living, breathing refutation of your ‘100% of women are raped in college’ thesis.
Bye, Sammy! I hope your eyes always sparkle, you spiritual non-masturbator, you!
YAY! Samuel 2112 said he’s leaving because of me!
*waits for applause and celebration from the MBZers*
**brushes rose petals out of hair**
Now, shall we set up a pool to see how long it takes Samuel to come back after “going his own way” to tell us again how wrong we are?
Neither had I, but according to the link that Bee provided, it looks like NWOslave has taken his Feminism 101 course from the ever-obtuse Christina Hoff Sommers, who also believes that anorexia doesn’t have much of a health impact on Americans (her objective evidence for this is the relatively small number of deaths that are attributed to anorexia nervosa as per the cause of death that is noted on the death certificates).
I’m guessing a month or so. That’s what it took last time.
Ding ding ding ding ding! Holly wins a prize!
Oh, Samuel from the future, if you think that a Lazy Bear Weekend is without its many sexual dynamics and tensions, I don’t know what to say, sweetie. Good luck with your weird blog.
@KathleenB
“I am living, breathing refutation of your ’100% of women are raped in college’ thesis.”
Whoa. You being a feminist It’s “your” thesis.
It’s just like “your” schrodinger’s rapist theory. Ya see in schrodinger’s cat the sticky wicket was if the cat was dead or alive. In schrodinger’s rapist, we know there is a rapist in the box. Hence the term rapist. So the question isn’t “if” there’s a rapist in the box, the question is how to punish the man. You wouldn’t call it schrodinger’s dead cat, where’s the puzzle in that? The only question would be what to do with the dead cat.
Oh! *smacks head* Ithiliana wins a prize too!
Ozzy ethics! They bite the heads off bats!
Unless he means “Ozy ethics,” in which case that’s trying to be nice to everyone, eating vegan, volunteering for political causes I support, donating a tenth of my income to charity, keeping my promises, choosing a career that will bring happiness to myself and others, working hard at what I do, practicing changing my mind in response to new information and sometimes having kinky sex.
…I hate bragging about my efforts to be an ethical person, because I fall short of my ideals a LOT and I don’t want to present myself as some kind of paragon of virtue, because I’m not, but seriously, if you were going to pick an ethical system for everyone to adopt, you could do a lot worse than choosing mine.
NWO: I challenge you to find one singe feminist who flat out states that 100% of women are raped in college. Not any dodgy statistics, not your interpretation of the stats, a real feminist saying this. Preferably in a video, but any outright, unambiguous statement will do. Remember, google might be your friend, but not even a search engine will help you here, methinks.
@ozymandias42
“I hate bragging about my efforts to be an ethical person, because I fall short of my ideals a LOT and I don’t want to present myself as some kind of paragon of virtue, because I’m not, but seriously, if you were going to pick an ethical system for everyone to adopt, you could do a lot worse than choosing mine.’
I promise to never think of you as a paragon of virtue. Feminism is the lowest wrung on the ethical system ladder. So I don’t think you could do any worse. Feminism and ethics, it’s like oil and water, they don’t mix.
Annnnnd I’m outta here. Flounce!
Also NWO: You do not get to lecture me about science. At all. My father (an actual research chemist) taught me more about science than you will ever know. And if you can’t figure out the ‘sticky wicket’ the cat involves, I’m sure as fuck not going to help.
He only pays child support to her if she actually raises the kid. If he raises the kid, she pays child support to him. Child support is about the welfare of the child, nothing more.
But you know, I don’t actually like that system. I’d rather a general tax on the population, paid back to all parents.
bee: actually everybody here who IGNORED him and started him onto his capsloky rantiness deserves a prize too!
*showers rose petals over everybody*
And is it just me, or might NWO be working up to another banning giving the incredibly nasty personal attacks on Holly and Ozzy instead of his usual generalized trollishness?
Ithiliana: Well, technically Mary Daly? But she’s been dead for a while, and critiqued by feminists for even longer.
BlackBloc: Oh, hush, I’ve only been having sex for two years. At my current rate, by the time I die I will have 283.5 sexual partners!
NWO: “Ozzy dearest, you wallow in shit and piss which you consider sex. Your blog consists of you talking about your pussy. You’re a millionaires daughter whose toughest choice is wether to wallow in piss or shit or both for this evenings festivities. You have no ethical beliefs. Your art is promoting menstrual finger painting. Your “truth” is whatever you “feel” at any given point in time. The “business” you run is talking about your pussy on your blog. You’re going to spend your entire life in college living off of daddies money. And you’re lecturing me?”
1) I have had piss-sex a single digit number of times in my life and view scat as a hard limit.
2) My truth is based, as far as I can, on a dispassionate study of the evidence. I am not a perfect Bayesian rationalist; like all humans, I am biased and often rely on heuristics. However, I strive for rationality, which is more than I can say for you.
3) I don’t run a business. However, running a business is something you can respect someone for even if they have kinky sex.
4) I will be attending college for six years, not my entire life, with a two-year break for the Peace Corps.
5) I am a utilitarian ethicist who believes that for fallible human beings deontological moral rules should be made. I have a complicated list of the deontological rules I follow, many of which are derived from the work of Peter Singer; however, I deisagree with him on many points.
6) Menstrual blood painting is awesome.
I’m unethical because I… believe men and women should be equal? o.O
Ozymandias42: weekend brain–not technically sure of context you’re putting Mary Daly in (whose work I loved a lot more back in the 80s than Friedan’s, but whose work has yet been critiqued quite strongly by feminists–ditto Friedan’s of course–but that’s the way these things work though I’m not sure either NWO or Samuel 2112 can get that).