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If at first you don’t succeed, grope her

This might work, actually.

Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.

It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.

Take this query, recently posted there:

My suggestion?

Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.

So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.

Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.

But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?

But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”

Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.

Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.

Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.

Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale);  he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.

But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.

So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her!  Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)

Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.

And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.

In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape.  A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.

Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.

The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments  get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:

Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.

But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”

They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much  a formula for date rape.

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Captain Bathrobe
Captain Bathrobe
13 years ago

It’s usually a good idea to establish some rapport before moving on to asking someone out. Even a couple of shared glances could be helpful, rolling your eyes at something the professor said, etc. Our friend on the seddit (who seems just like an average guy who needs some advice on meeting women, not a rapist at all) could ask her about the reading before or after class (“what did you think of this week’s chapter?”). If she mumbles something and moves away, then he knows it’s a no go. If she talks to him and his friendly, then he can keep working on building rapport and then maybe take the leap to asking for coffee. That’s what I’d do, anyway.

Johnny_B
Johnny_B
13 years ago

Okay, I had to google kino touch and the level of planning and calculation that goes into it is creepy. A light touch on the arm while you’re talking to someone is a normal expression that’s just part of our nature as social animals. But if it isn’t something that happens spontaneously as you feel it in the moment, it might come off as odd to the other person, especially if it’s obvious that you’re not even listening to what the person is saying because you’re so busy waiting for just the right moment to touch him or her. Just throwing that out there.

To be fair, most of that advice is aimed at socially-clueless introverts, who actually have to teach themselves the behaviors that come naturally to other people. The end goal is, in fact, to make the touch a normal, spontaneous expression in a social setting. But before they get there, some have to practice it consciously.

Captain Bathrobe
Captain Bathrobe
13 years ago

Johnny B, is your country is Central Europe, by any chance?

Captain Bathrobe
Captain Bathrobe
13 years ago

in Central Europe

Pecunium
13 years ago

Ozy:The creepy bit is that I also seduce people via cuddling while watching movies. Of course, if they say “no” I listen, so

I am presuming, from context, that you are already in some form of relationship where contact is expected/allowed?

re touching. I am a fairly fond of casual touch, with people I know. I am fairly open to casual touch, from people I know. I am not so comfortable with casual touch from people I don’t know.

I may deflect it. I may tell the person to not do that. If taken unawares, or in way which seems threatening, to me, I may react forcefully.

The whole PUA rationale behind kino is as a form of social engineering. It’s designed to move the PUA into the real of people the target is comfortable with, without her making a conscious decision about it, and so get inside her guard.

It’s not that touching people is creepy, it’s that the motives behind kino are.

blitzgal
13 years ago

“Lolmygod I would be a terrible PUA — I’m great at chatting and joking with people, but the second I have some sort of objective in mind I completely lose track of the conversation. If I were told I had to “casually” touch someone at some point I would start derping pretty hard and probably forget my own name. Better just to practice your conversational skills — like I do — with anyone you can, rather than train for bizarre contrived scenarios like going in for a “kino” (is that a noun?) Goodness knows just being able to talk to a woman like a normal human being will probably go miles further than poking and observing her like a lab rat.”

I have this trouble as well, which is why I brought it up. I do very well in small group settings where I know everyone, but am terribly shy with strangers. Many times I’m stuck in my head reminding myself of all of the normal social things that a person needs to do….like, don’t talk about yourself too much, don’t take over the conversation, LISTEN to what they are saying instead of waiting for the next pause so you can speak. I have a bit of social phobia that goes back to childhood. It gets better with practice like you say, and as I get older.

One thing that these guys need to understand is that there are a lot of women with the exact same self-esteem issues and social awkwardness. It will only help them in the end, viewing us as actual people who have all the same thoughts and feelings that they do.

Johnny_B
Johnny_B
13 years ago

Either way, what is your point? Should every woman you’re interested in be required to take you out for a test drive?

Nah, she was probably just trying to let me down easy. I didn’t blame her or anything, it was just a random anecdote I remembered on this occasion.

For what it’s worth, our department manager at that same store was a bit of a “pickup artist”. He was aggressive and the “smooth ladies’ man, will talk your head off and won’t take no for an answer” type. Pretty soon after he got there he was dating one of the girls and last I heard they were going off on vacation together. Make of that what you will.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
13 years ago

Regarding kino, maybe it’s also a cultural thing?

Oh sure, that wouldn’t surprise me a bit. But more than just an “American” thing, I think that it depends on what social circles you hang out in and what your personality is. A lot of my friends and I are geeky and introverted, and more than a few of us are non-neurotypical, and for us being touched by strangers is abnormal and almost universally met with dismay. (Any touching is rare, in fact; one woman I’ve known for years, and we’ve hugged all of once that I can think of. :p) And I’ve had to tell someone off for being too feely because he was making all of us uncomfortable (I’m the designated “bitch” when it comes to things like that :D) but some of my friends were too polite or nervous to say a word to him.

And that’s a huge objection I have to this whole “try touching her and wait to get yelled at or not” thing — I’m worried that PUA are targeting the girls who can’t comfortably say “no” when they’re always trying to push the interaction further and further. I am just as likely to tell the guy to fuck off (if possible) but I’m the designated bitch for a reason, and lots of women are better trained to stay quiet than I am.

KathleenB
KathleenB
13 years ago

Johnny: I’m not saying never touch someone (that would be stupid), I’m saying that waiting until you know a bit more about their comfort level would be nice. Your comfort level with something should not be the barometer by which you judge other’s.

Johnny_B
Johnny_B
13 years ago

“Johnny B, is your country is Central Europe, by any chance?”

Central/Eastern, kinda (Romania). But I’ve also lived in Canada and Germany for 14 years.

hellkell
hellkell
13 years ago

“Sounds good to me. In fact, this is almost the exact scenario that happened between myself and a girl I used to work with. She told me she wasn’t interested in a relationship at that time. A week later she had a new boyfriend. Le sigh.”

You know why we do this, right? Because a lot of guys out there won’t take a straight-forward “no” for an answer. She was trying to let you down easy.

Johnny_B
Johnny_B
13 years ago

Bagelsan: Definitely, personality factors hugely into it. I know one girl who absolutely doesn’t like being touched, and others who positively enjoy it (within the limits of appropriateness, of course :p ) But you don’t have to yell at the guy. Simply using body language like pulling away should be enough to signal that he shouldn’t continue. If he does, (some guys are just clueless or malicious, but hopefully the former) just tell him politely but firmly that he should stop doing that.

Jules
Jules
13 years ago

There are better links on the Angell situation,
http://splitsider.com/2011/08/one-night-at-asssscat-or-what-to-do-with-a-date-rape-monologue#comments
http://jezebel.com/5834712/is-this-comedy-monologue-a-rape-confessionhttp://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2011/08/30/140056318/your-friends-are-not-your-audience-a-disturbing-internet-lesson-in-perspective

The only thing I’ve taken issue with in this particular debacle, is that at this point we believe we know what happened, but we don’t actually know. I feel pretty certain it’s an “escalation” into nonconsensual sex, but it also could be a story he made up, and told, very badly.

I’d put money on it being assault, but want the proper authorities to deal with it, which apparently they are. Second City talked to the cops.

It’s nasty and man I know sex is fun and all, but is an orgasm worth all that domination and effort? When if you just go about relationships a little differently you could have MORE and better ones?

KathleenB
KathleenB
13 years ago

Jhnny: I don’t yell unless I have to (too loud, didn’t take a hint, etc). I’m only seeing one other reference to yelling here – no one has said they’d yell at someone for unwanted social contact.

KathleenB
KathleenB
13 years ago

Ugh, last comment should be directed at JOhnny – sorry.

shesaidwut
shesaidwut
13 years ago

I don’t think you should ever touch a person before you have some hints that they’d be comfortable with it. And trust me, those are there.

But the thing is, you never know who people are, where they’re from, what may have happened to them. Being both a rape survivor and autistic, I can tell you that it would be a very bad idea to just touch me out of the blue. Bad for you, and extremely upsetting for me.

If you’re at all interested in a person, why would you want to risk really upsetting them?

katz
13 years ago

If a guy is clueless enough to need instructions on how to incorporate touch into interaction, I doubt he’ll respond to body language signaling him to stop.

shesaidwut
shesaidwut
13 years ago

“If a guy is clueless enough to need instructions on how to incorporate touch into interaction, I doubt he’ll respond to body language signaling him to stop.”

To be honest, I don’t believe for a second that that’s down to someone being “clueless”. The kind of body language that comes with disinterest is often very loud. If a guy can’t realize that a girl leaning away from him means she’s not interested, he’s got other problems than simple cluelessness.

Jules
Jules
13 years ago

@shesaidwut right

It’s been indicated in studies that people are highly attuned to the “no” but some choose to ignore it.
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/mythcommunication-its-not-that-they-dont-understand-they-just-dont-like-the-answer/

Magical Laura (@_magical_laura)

I think touching can work if you already know the other person is gonna be into it… If I’m flirting with a guy I think is hot + would enjoy a bit of kino, I normally would try + close the space between us slightly maybe…laugh, smile, extended eye contact. At THIS point (probly end of the night or a few meetings depending on how you roll) a touch on the arm is super awesome + electric for me 😀

Random guy or guy I’ve had a 10min conversation with touching me on the arm would feel gross and weird.

Johnny_B
Johnny_B
13 years ago

If you’re at all interested in a person, why would you want to risk really upsetting them?

True, but how are you ever supposed to escalate if you’re perpetually afraid that anything you do might potentially upset that person? Especially if they feel the same way? We’re not mind readers nor perfect interpreters of someone else’s body language. Best most of us can do is try something and have the sense to back off if it doesn’t work. If both partners are mature, functioning adults, a small faux-pas, recognized and admitted to in time, shouldn’t stand in the way of developing a relationship, and might be a better choice than what I can only call ‘cold politeness’.

Pecunium
13 years ago

I interact in a number of circles where body contact etiquite is very different SF Fandom/SF Poly communities/Ottawa Fandom/Poly Communities/Maker Communities/Orthodox Jewish/Modern Orthodox Jewish/Quaker/Army/Work (American Retail, and food service, and photography).

In all of them (save the Orthodox Jewish), the rule on touch is largely, “ask first”. When it doubt, I defer to offers made to me.

I manage to keep all of them straight,

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
13 years ago

But you don’t have to yell at the guy. Simply using body language like pulling away should be enough to signal that he shouldn’t continue.

It wasn’t…

If he does, (some guys are just clueless or malicious, but hopefully the former) just tell him politely but firmly that he should stop doing that.

…so I did. And yes, the vast majority of guys I deal with are clueless rather than malicious, but that doesn’t mean the targets of their cluelessness feel any better. Guys have a responsibility to educate themselves to a bare minimum of social competence before inflicting themselves on women.

If both partners are mature, functioning adults, a small faux-pas, recognized and admitted to in time, shouldn’t stand in the way of developing a relationship, and might be a better choice than what I can only call ‘cold politeness’.

Surely we aren’t calling those Seddit/PUA guys “mature, functioning adults” are we? Because yeah, with actual mature, functioning adults being sensitive to body language and non-verbal cues is fine, but these guys aren’t quite sure that breaking and entering + rape is bad, so I think you’re giving them too much credit. :p

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

I have to say, I probably would laugh at the coffee written on the forehead and agreed to go out with the guy who did that. I not only like to laugh, I like to write things on my forehead too. 😛

Johnny_B
Johnny_B
13 years ago

Surely we aren’t calling those Seddit/PUA guys “mature, functioning adults” are we? Because yeah, with actual mature, functioning adults being sensitive to body language and non-verbal cues is fine, but these guys aren’t quite sure that breaking and entering + rape is bad, so I think you’re giving them too much credit. :p

Yeah, when I said “mature, functioning adults” that’s what I meant. I got no defense for the “keep escalating” PUA crowd. That’s just messed up.