Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.
It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.
Take this query, recently posted there:
My suggestion?
Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.
So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.
Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.
But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?
But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”
Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.
Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.
Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.
Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale); he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.
But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.
So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her! Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)
Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.
And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.
In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape. A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.
Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.
The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:
Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.
But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”
They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much a formula for date rape.
You’re a despicable piece of shit. If I didn’t want sex trafficking to end entirely I’d want you to take the place of one of the coerced women, so you would understand what the fuck you’re talking about with this shit. So Molly Ren has had sex; so what? What in the flying fuck makes you think that she’s somehow less of a person than a guy who’s had sex with 30 women is?
Yes, but then, NWO is a lying sack of stupid. Who cares what he implied? (Unless you’re keeping track of it so you can make fun of it later.)
Oh, about rape laws that favor females: Hahahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahhahahahhahahahahahah.
That’s hilarious, man. Do you mean the part where rape victims are still regularly quizzed about how they were pretty much to blame for their rape, or the part where juries won’t believe it happened unless there’s some pretty nice vaginal tearing to back it up, or the part where if the accused says it was consensual, the police throw up their hands in confusion and close the file?
Kristinmh: That story reminds me of the guy who cornered me in a bar and wanted to give me some wolf energy. Good times, good times.
See? Too damned early in the morning and I can’t close my quotes.
@Nobinayamu
“But by law, your “feelings” at any particular point in time determine what constitutes sexual assault.
But NWO… by your assertions men commit sexual assault because they are aroused and then frustrated by women. How can you claim that rape and sexual assault are caused by by women purposefully “expressing their sexuality” (your exact words) by being alluring to men, thus causing sexual frustration which inevitably leads men to being unable to control themselves — while simultaneously maintaing that most women are lying about sexual assault.
Now, you aren’t very bright. But even you must recognize that these two ideas are in direct contradiction.”
Not at all princess. It’s the feminist mantra. And it works soooo well. A woman sexually arouses a man, then at her leisure, depending on how she “feels” she has choices. Maybe use her sex to get freebies. Maybe laugh with her girlgang at the stupid man who can’t control his “sex.” Maybe use her sex to have another man beat him up for calling her a bitch. Maybe “hollaback” and have him slapped on the sexual offender list. It’s a veritable schmorgesborg of options all depending on her “feelings” at any moment in time. She can use the violence of other men, the State, or even her own and be praised as “empowered!” Yet still claim “victimhood!”
Elements of Rape:
1) The male accused must have had sex with a woman
2) There must be absolute proof that this was non-consensual
2a) If the suspect was black, and the victim white that shall be held as absolute proof that the penetration was non-consensual barring a signed statement by the victim that this wasn’t the case.
2b) If the victim has never had sex, and wore modest clothing (But none of those fuzzy sweaters, those are hot), then that shall be held as proof
2c) Videotape’s fine. Make sure to leak it
2d) A weapon is acceptable.
3) All sex is assumed to be consensual (Unless condition 2a is met), unless the victim fought back against the attacker with violence. Consenting to have sex due to physical threat is still consent, don’t talk to me about Duress.
I actually wrote that up in proper legal language once, but I’ve since lost it, and didn’t feel like oding it htis time.
Protip: Only one point in there favors women, and it’s that male victims can’t get taken seriously (Nor can victims of female rapists).
NWO, I realize that women are wholly uninterested in you and, as a result, you cannot fathom any interactions with women that are positive. When you haven’t experienced it directly, it must be all but impossible to imagine scenarios in which women enjoy the company of men, or one man in particular. You’ve proven, amply, that you aren’t really certain how consensual sex with a woman even works.
But that isn’t what I asked you.
You claim, repeatedly, that men sexually assault women because they’re sexually frustrated by women. You also claim that women are almost always lying about being sexually assaulted.
How are these two ideas not contradictory?
@Bee
Laws for just rape.
http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/stupid-dogma/teenage-sexuality/rape-laws-no-due-process
Due process; (haha) that’s for women, not men.
I don’t recall any of the women here, myself included, saying or implying that the people involved with NOMAS are not cool dudes. I can’t speak for any of the other women here, but I know that you don’t have to sell me on the idea that NOMAS is a worthwhile organization…. you might, however, have to sell your good pals Paul Elam and NWOslave on that idea.
Hmmmmmmmmm, I wonder if the NOMAS site has any articles about Father’s rights……… oh, here’s one!!!
Want To Be A Good Dad? Support Mom And Avoid Father’s Rights Groups
Samuel, do you actually know ANYTHING about the groups/organizations with which you choose to affiliate or the persons here with whom you so enthusiastically agree? Here, I’ll give you a small example…
You said that you almost cried when you read Shesaidwhut’s post, that it was harrowing. A portion of her post said, “…never having to have dealt with your boyfriend pressuring you and pressuring you and pressuring you, until you just couldn’t take it anymore and decided to lie back and think of England.
I bet it’s really nice, never having to deal with the way society will treat you over something like that.”
Well, Samuel, do you know the way society will treat someone over something like that? Here, let me refer you to a portion of NWOslave’s post as one example of how society will treat someone over something like that, “But by law, your “feelings” at any particular point in time determine what constitutes sexual assault. Even retroactively. Womens law clearly states that any woman can “enthusiastically” have sex with a man and even years later suddenly “feel” that she was raped. Ayiyiyi, she could being enthusiastically swinging from the rafters like a crazed ape on PCP and still claim it was date rape years later.
And what was your response, Samuel, to NWOslave’s comment that I quoted above? Here, let me quote you on that one, “Dude you nailed it. That is why we MRA’s must stick together despite our individual MRA viewpoints.” I’ll bet those tears of yours dried up awful quick when NWOslave came along to straighten you out!!
Kristinmh said
Semen is not magic and it does you no good to retain it. This is a fading but still popular pseudo-scientific belief, and it would benefit you to do a little research into human physiology before you make pronouncements about the health effects of ejaculation;
– Sexual desire and/or sexual activity is not inherently soiling or degrading for a person of any sex or gender;
Kristinmh, I’m a dude. Your not I know when I have been celibate even refraining from masturbation I feel more energy focused. I cannot explain it. The penis is a chakra(look it ip on wiki) it is a powerful energy. It is my seed. When I preserve semen I feel alive energetic creative artistic masculine stronger. Think of dudes that fall asleep after sex it drains you when you release semen. Plus I am saving my seed and If I ever decide to geina relationship again I will have a raging erection No viagra or cialis for me
@Nobinayamu
Questions, questions, questions. Why do I always answer them? Well here’s one for you. Can, and do women do all the things I mentioned above?
NWO, I always answer your questions. You ignore the answers. But I always answer them. In fact, in this very thread I responded to your bullshit assertion that your regendered version of Doctress Julia’s post was misogynistic. You’ve yet to even acknowledge that.
So, no, I will not answer your question until you answer mine:
You claim, repeatedly, that men sexually assault women because they’re sexually frustrated by women. You also claim that women are almost always lying about being sexually assaulted.
How are these two ideas not contradictory?
“A dictionary is completely fucking inadequate for describing what rape is”
You can’t be serious. Words mean shit, you can’t just make up the definitions as you go along especially when they’re things that are a crime. No I’m going to go with people who actually know what the hell they’re talking about rather than your appeal to emotion laden no substance rant. Just cause it gave you flashbacks or PTSD or whatever doesn’t mean it’s rape and you don’t get to redefine rape to make it so.
Ooo, pick me, I can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo
Chakra is bullshit; actual tests have demonstrated it. Traditional medicine is all bullshit. Every single region has had this shit. It’s all wrong.
Good sex is tiring, but it’s not because your semen has woo powers; it’s because good sex uses most or all of your body for prolonged periods.
That’s really not how it works.
Also, for the record, you almost never answer any questions. You usually just prattle on and on, occasionally choosing to give ridiculous responses to the handful of questions you can wrap that pea-sized brain of yours around and ignoring everything else.
And that’s when you’re not saying shit so outrageously idiotic that Shaenon has to add it to your “big book of knowledge”.
Spanish and Russian use the same alphabet?
samuel2112, you sound suspiciously like those guys into CBT. You might want to look it up, so that you can see how much sex has fuck-all to do with penetration.
Also, wow, the trolls on here don’t even bother to click on my blog usually. I seem to have really gotten to NWO for having sex without him.
Rutee: That’s actually pretty hilarious. And sadly accurate.
Slaveman: Yes, you’re absolutely right. It’s a crying shame that rape victims are no longer required to show earnest resistance, that their sexual histories can no longer be brought into the courtroom (as much), that spousal rape is a crime, that witness corroboration is no longer necessary, and that rape shield laws exist. That the effect of all that has been an even lower rate of successful prosecution because of stagnant social beliefs about rate is a godsend and a miracle for nice men such as yourself.
Samuel from the future: I’m just curious; how are you “in” NOMAS? Have you donated money to them to become a member, at least?
That should have read “Traditional <foo> medicine”, let’s see if it works this time. If not, fuck it, the point is everyone had stupid ideas about what works to fix bodies for most of human history.
Pam wrote ” There are MRA’s who concern themselves with Father’s rights such as Mr. Paul Elam. I love that guy. We are on the same page.
Hmmmmmmmmm, I wonder if the NOMAS site has any articles about Father’s right
Pam dammit I will go to my fucking grave defending NOMAS as a solid MRA organization.Fucking solid. The MRA movement is NOT MONOLITHIC. For example, I do not agree with everything NWO slave agrees with he may not agree with me however we are both effective MRA Leaders.
I am as harsh on my fellow mra’s at times. If you filled a room with MRA’s there would be arguing.Just like there are different movements of feminism.
If feminism is just stating (I did not know this until I read a bit about feminism)
equal rights what the fuck is wrong with that? The term feminazi is for the extreme wings.
I fucking love Paul Elam,I love the Spearhead. I am friends with some of those spearhead cats,They are cool guys. NOMAS rocks, They are hardcore MRA with a feminist tilt.
Actually I think the old school feminists like Ms. Betty Friedan who was radical. In 1963 she wrote the feminist mystique a radical book she was courageous. She spoke out against sex roles and norms that hindered women just like some MRA’s are doing today.
I thimk Ms. Friedan would be rolling around her grave if she saw what became of feminists today with the slut walk, I do not consider the new feminism like the slut walk feminism.
Ms. Friedan was the bomb. She was fuckin radical. Ms.Friedan was an WGTOW
“Just cause it gave you flashbacks or PTSD or whatever doesn’t mean it’s rape and you don’t get to redefine rape to make it so.”
Oooh, look! A definition of the effects of rape!
“Victims of rape can be severely traumatized by the assault and may have difficulty functioning as well as they had been used to prior to the assault, with disruption of concentration, sleeping patterns and eating habits, for example. They may feel jumpy or be on edge. After being raped, it is common for the victim to experience acute stress disorder, including symptoms similar to those of posttraumatic stress disorder…”
Slothy, you can say that PTSD can be caused by many things (being in a war zone, witnessing a murder, being in a natural disaster) but you can’t really get away with saying they’re entirely unconnected.
Samuel, are you going to acknowledge Pam’s comments about your support of NWOs assertions?
“The MRA movement is NOT MONOLITHIC. For example, I do not agree with everything NWO slave agrees with he may not agree with me however we are both effective MRA Leaders.”
Do you get to be a faction if you’re only one person?
Paul Elam’s a voice for men actually has a pro feminist aspect on an article on the Zeta Male. I am a zeta male. The quote from a voice for men
” One of the few things feminism got right was the abundance of options that it gave to women. Now that men are starting to analyse all this more objectively, many are coming to a completely different view of their roles. When looking in comparison men have started to decide that how much life sucks as a man. Now, a growing number of men want options, too.”
Article source http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/mens-issues/so-what-the-fuck-is-a-zeta-male-anyway/
Elam rocks