Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.
It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.
Take this query, recently posted there:
My suggestion?
Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.
So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.
Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.
But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?
But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”
Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.
Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.
Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.
Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale); he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.
But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.
So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her! Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)
Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.
And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.
In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape. A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.
Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.
The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:
Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.
But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”
They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much a formula for date rape.
Felixbc wrote “And seriously, “just be careful out there”? We’re fully aware of what’s out there, including condescending prats like you.”
Condescending Prats I CANNOT WIN. Here I am a masculine guy, a strong man, who is simply against sexism for both genders. If I say I hate women and their just sexual objects I am hateful. If I say I do not wish to sexually objectify women anymore, I am a condescending Prat.? WTF
Well fortunately, There are women that support NOMAS and Love NOMAS, I have a women even part of my blog that loves NOMAS. Many women Love NOMAS and do not consider NOMAS guys condescending.
Shame on you Felix, why do you feel so threatened by NOMAS? They are a cool bunch of dudes.
Samuel: When you post comments here, they don’t disappear after someone else posts. Repeating yourself accomplishes nothing but giving everyone else a weird sense of déjà vu.
And dude, you don’t see women as people. If anything, you see women as a single person, as evidenced in the What Women Want post on your blog (http://amangoinghisownway2112.wordpress.com/2011/08/23/what-women-want/; I’m not even going to risk HTML there) where, to paraphrase, you’re all, “Women like gay men*, but women shame men by calling them anti-gay slurs! I don’t understand!”
You seem literally incapable of grasping the fact that women aren’t all essentially identical, or the concept that what one woman does or says is only the actions or words of that one woman. I wouldn’t want my daughter anywhere near someone who might very well show up at her door one day yelling at her for hating queer folks because some random other woman was being a bigot.
* For generalization-happy reductionist reasons, I might add.
Samuel, don’t play the “I condescended to feminists, ignored the things they said, talked about how I don’t even talk to women because of my bizarre hang-ups… and then they were MEAN to me! I GUESS MRAS WERE RIGHT AND FEMINISTS WERE JUST MEANIES ALL ALONG!” game.
We’ve seen it before and we’re not that impressed.
Samuel: Where in Felix’s comment does he say anything about NOMAS?
Silly Feyline, Samuel “understands” where I’m “coming from” so any definition of what the hell he thinks I’m responding to must in fact be the correct one. He’s talking endlessly about NOMAS, so I must be referencing that.
Samuel, one more time for the hard of reading: Your comment (repeated twice) that us women should just be careful out there, ’cause we don’t know about men and their horny, horny appendages that just want to get laid, is condescending. That you seem to think women are stupid and clueless about the world, while you are much, much wiser, makes me think you are a prat.
(ps I prefer female pronouns)
“Women, I am absolutely not against sex. Sex is god given beautiful loving. However, spiritually when you sleep around with too many men ( I am not implying women here do that) but you sleeping with every other woman he slept with.”
I laughed SO HARD when I read this. Man Boobz is full of sluts, yo. 😛 (And people from everywhere else on the sexual-asexual spectrum). I’ve slept with THIRTY PEOPLE! OMG, Samuel, am I past the “too many” mark???
“I think sex is beautiful, The problem is sex can become an addiction. An orgasm produces so much endorphins is as god of feeling as probably cocaine or other drugs are. It can be addicting. You can be in bondage to sex. I mean sex controlling you, not the other way around.”
Is sex addiction even a real thing? People seem to use it a lot more to prop up abstinence-only programs than anything else, which has made me think it’s just propaganda.
“I mean I am not perfect but I ask you this if you had a daughter would you rather have her date a guy like me who is going o see her as a human being with fears, hobbies,likes,dislikes, sense of humor or a typical unconscious dude like the PUA bullshit who just sees body parts and nothing else.”
Samuel, my man, you REALLY need to use another phrase than “unconscious dude”. I am imagining a bunch of guys sleepwalking and falling into someone’s vagina, or having a wet dream standing up.
NWO said
But by law, your “feelings” at any particular point in time determine what constitutes sexual assault. Even retroactively. Womens law clearly states that any woman can “enthusiastically” have sex with a man and even years later suddenly “feel” that she was raped. Ayiyiyi, she could being enthusiastically swinging
from the rafters like a crazed ape on PCP and still claim it was date rape years later
Dude you nailed it!!!. That is why MRA’s must stick together no matter what our individual differences are.
NWO implied that feminists like the PUA movement. If they do what a damn shame that they like these stupid obsequious idiots to women.The embarrass me as an independent man who answers to no one. I absolutely refuse to change my personality to play “game” to meet a women or get laid. I would rather stay celibate.Fortunately I found that many women agree with what I say on other sites.
Yes some men are afraid to have sex inasmuch as the can be accused to be rapists any time at the womens whim. So dudes are choosing celibacy or even homosexuality. What a shame in a way.,
NWO said “But by law, your “feelings” at any particular point in time determine what constitutes sexual assault. Even retroactively. Womens law clearly states that any woman can “enthusiastically” have sex with a man and even years later suddenly “feel” that she was raped. Ayiyiyi, she could being enthusiastically swinging from the rafters like a crazed ape on PCP and still claim it was date rape years later
Dude you nailed it. That is why we MRA’s must stick together despite our individual MRA viewpoints.
NWO also implied that many feminists like the PUA movement. What an outrage.
I think the PUA guys are a bunch of obsequious to women shills who make all men look like idiots.
As an independent Bachelor I absolutely refuse to change myself for any woman. If I have to change my personality to play “game” in order to meet a woman or get laid, that is a disgrace.
NWO implied that at any time a woman can accuse a man of rape while having sex. This is why men are choosing celibacy nowadays or even homosexuality. What a freaking shame he rape laws that favor females.
“I absolutely refuse to change my personality to play “game” to meet a women or get laid. I would rather stay celibate.”
Um, Samuel? You might want to rethink that…
Oh goody, Samuel’s back!
To recap, Sammy:
– Semen is not magic and it does you no good to retain it. This is a fading but still popular pseudo-scientific belief, and it would benefit you to do a little research into human physiology before you make pronouncements about the health effects of ejaculation;
– Sexual desire and/or sexual activity is not inherently soiling or degrading for a person of any sex or gender;
– We’re really happy that you understand that rape is bad, but you seem iffy on the difference between consensual sex and rape. Basically: rape = bad – a horrible and damagin thing to do to another person; consensual sex between legal adults = generally speaking, good;
– Rutee and Magpie are women; and
– You still write like a Turkish spambot.
Oh, and I can’t remember who said upthread that Samuel wasn’t doing anyone a favour by GHOW, but I would like to respectfully disagree. I think he’s doing us an enormous favour by not buttonholing us in bars and regaling us with his sperm theories in public. How awkward would *that* be?
“Oh, and I can’t remember who said upthread that Samuel wasn’t doing anyone a favour by GHOW, but I would like to respectfully disagree. I think he’s doing us an enormous favour by not buttonholing us in bars and regaling us with his sperm theories in public. How awkward would *that* be?”
SO SO AWKWARD!
Samuel, of all the people giving you advice here, the one you’re listening to is NWOslave? Can’t begin to tell you what a bad idea that is.
Well now I can’t figure out if he’s being sarcastic (which is mostly my optimism speaking, seeing as he’s called himself and NWO MRA leaders in the past), or if he’s just taking what NWO says seriously as a way to throw a tantrum because we’re being SO MEAN to the poor man who’s God’s gift to women by virtue of refusing to sex us up.
*penny drops*
Oh, or maybe he’s actually taking him seriously. Boy, do I have my The World Is Rainbows and Butterflies blinders on today.
“So dudes are choosing celibacy or even homosexuality.”
Samuel, if you know any completely straight guys (as opposed to bi guys) who “made” themselves gay, I’d like to hear about them. I think some Republicans would be interested as well.
If your sex partners regularly accuse you of raping them, then perhaps celibacy is the way to go – homosexuality is out, since men can (and do) rape other men. Seriously, if it’s that hard for you to tell when someone actually wants to have sex with you, you’re better off not participating.
And if you think the current rape laws of pretty much anywhere favour women I’d hate to see what you thought fair rape laws would be.
Molly, I got into a very awkward conversation in a bar once with a dude who wouldn’t stop telling me about this system he’d invented. He was really vague on what the “system” was, only that it helped people focus on their goals and meet them.
“Tell you what,” he said, “I’ll give you one.”
And he put a perfectly ordinary flat pebble in my hand.
He also gave me the “pamphlet”, which was 40 pages of photocopied new age scribbling.
I thanked him and left. What else could I do? I think I still have the rock somewhere. At least it didn’t involve semen!
(And no, NWO, he did not attempt to buy me a drink and I didn’t ask for one. My husband was there the whole time, and I was dressed very modestly.)
Samuel, please show where on this board -not where NWO asserted- but actually where on this board any feminist has said that they “like the PUA movement.” Then substantiate NWO’s claims, and your support of those claims.
And if you can’t do that, kindly Go Your Own Way.
You know what’s my favorite part of the repeated MRA confusion of my gender?
They’re the ones who keep saying all feminists are lesbians. It boggles the mind.
Also, the “You’re sleeping with everyone your partner has slept with” thing isn’t for ‘spiritual’ reasons, you stupid tit. It’s for health ones; it’s why getting tested is so important if you’re actively having sex.
Sex addiction isn’t even in the DSM – it was *removed* because there was so little evidence.
Assuming I ever had kids, which would be a horrible idea, neither of you would be acceptable. You’re bullheaded stupid and objectify women just as much, as you’ve made clear with your reasons for GYOW; You’ve made it abundantly clear you can only see women as sex bots in person. Your solution was to stop speaking to women; possibly an improvement, but it doesn’t make you remotely datable.
Also, Samuel, NOMAS is fine; you are not.
kristinmh, I don’t even know what to do with that story, except to say that you go to far more… interesting… bars than I do. 😛
I know some people who are far more into “woo woo” than I am, but at least they don’t package it like *that*!
Oh motherfucking hell he made the sexual orientation is a choice claim again.
Samuel, you fucking idiot, your sexual orientation is not up for being chosen, you motherfucking ignorant jackass. Sexual orientation is innate; You can choose how you express it, but it is NOT, by any means, a choice; nobody chooses the bullshit that comes with being gay. There is no evidence for that jackassery; None whatsoever. The only credible explanation of sexuality is that it is innate, and it’s the only one that stands up to the evidence.
A man is expected to have lots of heterosexual sex and always to be on the chase for it. If he’s not, he’s not a “real man”, and considered less masculine. This pressure can make sex a lot less pleasurable.
That is why (temporary) celibacy can be so liberating for a man. Then you have the time to sort out inner desire from outside pressure, feel secure in your masculity without the need to be validated by sex and know that when you have sex, it is because you really want it.
@Molly Ren
“I laughed SO HARD when I read this. Man Boobz is full of sluts, yo. (And people from everywhere else on the sexual-asexual spectrum). I’ve slept with THIRTY PEOPLE! OMG, Samuel, am I past the “too many” mark???”
So true! Da crew is exactly a sack of sluts and nothing more. You just expect to be treated with dignity and respect for proudly acting undignified and desrespectful. You’re a whore. So expect to be treated like one.
Sitting there typing how them bad ole PUAs treat women like objects is laughable. You’re a fuckdoll with a pulse. That’s all you are. So that’s what you’ll be treated like. What? You want to be praised for being a whore?
Here is what you are, this is your descirption of yourself from your very own blog.
“Molly Ren isn’t an advice columnist or a sex educator. She is simply a writer who hopes her blogging will help people feel a little less ashamed about their fetishes. She has been a Fleshbot featured writer, participated in two DC KinkForAll unconferences, and been interviewed about feederism by SexIs Magazine.”
So when you rile about men treating women like nothing more than a piece of meat warm enough to fuck, what else is there? There isn’t anything else to “know” about you or any woman like you. You’re simply a hole to fuck, which you proudly promote.
Attention whores like you are all the same. Look at me! Look at me! I’m so progressive. I’m breaking all the rules. So when men look at women like you as nothing but an object to fuck, that’s because that’s all you are. You won’t be respected, you won’t be praised, you won’t be admired. In order to be treated like something more than a hole where a man shoves his dick you have to actually “be” more than that. And you’re not. Now go spread your legs for the 31st guy and wonder why you’re not respected and you’re treated as nothing more that a fuck doll. Cause it’s a mystery.
But by law, your “feelings” at any particular point in time determine what constitutes sexual assault.
But NWO… by your assertions men commit sexual assault because they are aroused and then frustrated by women. How can you claim that rape and sexual assault are caused by by women purposefully “expressing their sexuality” (your exact words) by being alluring to men, thus causing sexual frustration which inevitably leads men to being unable to control themselves — while simultaneously maintaing that most women are lying about sexual assault.
Now, you aren’t very bright. But even you must recognize that these two ideas are in direct contradiction.
“So when men look at women like you as nothing but an object to fuck, that’s because that’s all you are. You won’t be respected, you won’t be praised, you won’t be admired. In order to be treated like something more than a hole where a man shoves his dick you have to actually “be” more than that. And you’re not. Now go spread your legs for the 31st guy and wonder why you’re not respected and you’re treated as nothing more that a fuck doll. Cause it’s a mystery.”
What a said, empty person you are.
And to think, you’re convinced that “feminism” is the cause of you failures and loneliness.