Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.
It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.
Take this query, recently posted there:
My suggestion?
Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.
So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.
Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.
But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?
But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”
Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.
Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.
Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.
Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale); he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.
But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.
So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her! Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)
Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.
And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.
In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape. A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.
Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.
The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:
Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.
But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”
They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much a formula for date rape.
Wow, talk about “check your privilege at the door, dude!” Your asking the women on this site to respond to something does NOT entitle you to have all or any of the women who frequent this site suddenly drop whatever it is that they happened to be doing at the time of your request and race to their computers in order to fulfill your request.
For one thing, different time zones… some of the women who frequent this site might be still peacefully slumbering.
Another thing, at least here in North America, it is Sunday morning on Labour Day weekend. Some of the women who frequent this site, and who are not at their workplace, might be enjoying the long weekend at camp or elsewhere, perhaps with a partner, perhaps with their children, etc.
Have a bit of patience, please!
As for Shesaidwut’s comment, look no further than the organization that you have now aligned yourself with to find an article that speaks to what I believe Shesaidwut is referring to in her comment:
Manufacturing Consent – Is It Rape?
@felixBC,
Glad I’m not the only one who took exception to that!!
Samuel, lust is not a problem in and of itself.
Why are you back here? Weren’t you going your own way?
BTW, classy move with all the yelling. Who the fuck are you again?
You seriously have to ask why the subject of rape might make some women uncomfortable, Samuel? And on top of that, you throw an all-caps screaming fit when they fail to answer you in a timely fashion, even though most people were probably asleep when you asked in the first place?
Samuel, those things I posted mean you shouldn’t just see women as sexual. They don’t mean you shouldn’t see women as sexual.
Do you get the difference?
Not only that, Sam reposts the same comment twice in succession because he has not immediately received an answer about it from Holly.
Pro-tip, Sam: other people exist as wholly separate entities from yourself. They have their own thoughts, priorities, and desires that may be at variance with your own. I know, weird huh?
It’s considered polite to take this into account when conversing with others.
@pam And before my first coffee, too! Not wise. Apparently no woman on this forum could possibly ever live several times zones west of Samuel. Or be offline.
Now that I’ve had coffee, I’m mulling over this:
Well, yes. But it’s about the context and consent, obviously. Sam here seems to think the act of sex itself is wrong. What if there’s no penis and/or penetration, Sam? Still devastating?
Samuel seems to think he’s reached some sort of harmonic convergence with feminist goals, but I am mistrustful when his foundation is “sex is evil so let’s all stop wanting it.” Sharper and clearer when withholding sperm, really?
Yes, she’s making him be redundant, and we all know how he HATES that!!!
Hellkell wroteSamuel, lust is not a problem in and of itself.
Why are you back here? Weren’t you going your own way?
BTW, classy move with all the yelling. Who the fuck are you again?
I now realize it is Labor day weekend here in the States and people are not at their PC”S.
Hellkell I am here again. I did leave this site for almost a month. I needed to regroup. I started my own blog. I am not asking for people to blog with me.
In the corner of my eye I perused this site and saw The article by David on the PUA movement.
I am sorry but I could not resist responding. I absolutely think the PUA movement is a despicable disgraceful and poisonous movement. It absolutely invokes men to lose any humanity and be obsequious to women to try to “get laid”
The PUA movement is an Absolute insult I mean an Absoute Poisonius insult to me as ab MRA. These guys are dangerous. I do not consider the PUA movement part of a valid MRM movement, The PUA movement in my opinion is digusting.
Freaking objectifying women as :game” not human beings. I could not resist posting. I will probably write an article on my own blog on the PUA,.
As I said before Sexual Objectification of women leadt a manto feeling he possesses a women and can really lead too violence against women. That is why I am here.
Yes, PUA is wrong, and date rape is much wronger, but neither one is wrong because it involves sex.
felix bc wrote Well, yes. But it’s about the context and consent, obviously. Sam here seems to think the act of sex itself is wrong. What if there’s no penis and/or penetration, Sam? Still devastating?
I understand where your coming from. However, I speak in terms of heterosexual relationships.
I almost cried when I read Shesaidwhut’s post. That was harrowing.
Women, I am absolutely not against sex. Sex is god given beautiful loving. However, spiritually when you sleep around with too many men ( I am not implying women here do that) but you sleeping with every other woman he slept with. Your risking STD’s, yes condoms are effective like 98% of the time. But like 2% chance you can get an STD is playing with fire.
I think sex is beautiful, The problem is sex can become an addiction. An orgasm produces so much endorphins is as god of feeling as probably cocaine or other drugs are. It can be addicting. You can be in bondage to sex. I mean sex controlling you, not the other way around.
Plus Women here like Joanna and Pam and NOI and Ami and Holly and Ozy and Redlocker and Magpie and others just be careful out there.
There are good men but many dudes(trust me I am a dude I know) do not have the best interests for women. They just want to “get laid:.
Some women are killed by men on Craigslist from the NSA section.
I mean I am not perfect but I ask you this if you had a daughter would you rather have her date a guy like me who is going o see her as a human being with fears, hobbies,likes,dislikes, sense of humor or a typical unconscious dude like the PUA bullshit who just sees body parts and nothing else.
Pam I will check out your link on http://www.nomas.org/ I still think this organizatio is Awesome and real cool. Plus they are considered “pro feminist: as well as an MRA group
How dou you like that?
Samuel, those things I posted mean you shouldn’t just see women as sexual. They don’t mean you shouldn’t see women as sexual.
Do you get the difference?
I understand. However you specifically wrote in the blog in your own words about desiring men to see you as a human being. Holly writes “I want them(men) to learn that spending time with a woman isn’t a laborious prerequisite to fucking her, but a pleasant thing in itself, a way to feel more alive and connected to the world.”
She also writes that she holds “The radical feminist opinion that you should treat women like people even if this doesn’t get you laid-but if they learn that treating women as humans leads to happy penis felling so much the better.”
I really liked those quotes Holly. For this man, a “happy penis feeling” means a happy heart. That I have the ability to think with my head and heart not my horny flesh. That as a man I Can see women as human beings and I can absolutely refuse to sexually objectify women and still be considered masculine. In fact even more masculine than the average joe.
Holly stated to me I shouldn’t see women as just sexual it does not mean I should not see women as sexual. Do I know the difference.
I understand but you said in your bowling therapy blog She writes “I want them to learn that spending time with a woman isn’t a laborious prerequisite to fucking her, but a pleasant thing in itself, a way to feel more alive and connected to the world.” She also writes that she holds “The radical feminist opinion that you should treat women like people this doesn’t get you laid-but if they learn that treating women as humans leads to happy penis felling so much the better.”
I really liked those quotes. For this man, a “happy penis feeling” means a happy heart. That I have the ability to think with my head and heart not my horny flesh. That as a man I Can see women as human beings and I can absolutely refuse to sexually objectify women and still be considered masculine. In fact even more masculine than the average joe.
I understand where your coming from. However, I speak in terms of heterosexual relationships.
Heterosexual people can do things besides penis-in-vagina penetration too. And rape isn’t a “relationship.” And anyway, what happens physically is just not the real problem here. The problem is violating someone’s consent and causing them pain and fear and humiliation. The exact mechanics of how you do that are really secondary.
However, spiritually when you sleep around with too many men ( I am not implying women here do that) but you sleeping with every other woman he slept with.
How many is too many? And isn’t this still the case if I only sleep with one man? And why should I care? Sleeping with lots of people can be a lovely experience of sharing pleasure with lots of people. Why would I not want to be a part of that?
Your risking STD’s, yes condoms are effective like 98% of the time. But like 2% chance you can get an STD is playing with fire.
Yeah, well, you can’t cross the street without taking a risk either. As long as you see it as “if I’m hit by a car, I will probably have to go to the hospital and may die” rather than “if I’m hit by a car, I’LL BE A DIRTY FILTHY,” you’re able to take that risk.
I know sex is not 100% safe. But nothing is, and as an adult, I can take my chances.
Plus Women here like Joanna and Pam and NOI and Ami and Holly and Ozy and Redlocker and Magpie and others just be careful out there.
Gosh, THANKS, Buddy. I really needed that from you.
I am careful. I also have sex.
There are good men but many dudes(trust me I am a dude I know) do not have the best interests for women. They just want to “get laid:.
Those guys are pretty nice to have around when I just want to get laid, actually.
mean I am not perfect but I ask you this if you had a daughter would you rather have her date a guy like me who is going o see her as a human being with fears, hobbies,likes,dislikes, sense of humor or a typical unconscious dude like the PUA bullshit who just sees body parts and nothing else.
I would rather she date a guy who sees her as a human being with fears, hobbies, likes, dislikes, a sense of humor, and also as a sexual being with a body that is capable of giving her great pleasure.
Oh, and I know some people in NOMAS, and they would SHIT THEMSELVES if they found out someone thought of them as MRAs.
Stop fucking repeating yourself, Samuel, it didn’t make sense the first time.
@Holly Pervocracy
“Say it with me five hundred thousand milionty billion times: SEXUAL ATTRACTION IS NOT SEXUAL OBJECTIFICATION.”
Well except when a woman says it is, it all depends on her “feelings” at any particular moment in time. If a woman “wants” to feel like an object of sexual desire than is OK, if not that’d be sexual harrassment. It all depends on her “mood.”
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“You can fuck–even fuck casually–and be a good person who respects others.”
Which is why feminists so love PUAs for their attitude on casual sex. You can casually fuckyfuckfuck as long as she “feels” respected, if she doesn’t, that’d probably be date rape.
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“You can think with your cock and your heart and your brain all at the same time and sometimes they will agree that having sex would be nice.”
Unfortunately, I can only think with my brain. When women think with their pussies, hearts and brains at the same time, is that like the feminists version of the holy trinity?
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“Sometimes women want to have sex with men. It is not disrespectful or unmasculine or objectifying to, with their enthusiastic consent, give them what they want.”
Yes, always give a woman whatever she wants. That’s paramount to a mans spiritual, physical and emotional fullfillment.
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“But we are trying to talk you out of thinking it’s morally superior or that it’s doing women a big favor.”
How odd, consider the standard comment is, “these losers would do women a huge favor if they’d GTOW!”
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“We feel date rape is a bad thing.
We also feel date consensual sex is a good thing.
We are saddened by guys who don’t know the difference (which means not just rapists, but also guys who are afraid to have sex at all for fear it will be rape) and made happy by guys who do.”
But by law, your “feelings” at any particular point in time determine what constitutes sexual assault. Even retroactively. Womens law clearly states that any woman can “enthusiastically” have sex with a man and even years later suddenly “feel” that she was raped. Ayiyiyi, she could being enthusiastically swinging from the rafters like a crazed ape on PCP and still claim it was date rape years later.
Heres a link to your beloved RAINN so you can see State by State the statute of limitations.
http://www.rainn.org/public-policy/sexual-assault-issues/state-statutes-of-limitations
In my home State of Pennsylvania it’s 12 years. Can you imagine being hauled off to court and asked, “So Mr. Slave, where were you on the night of September 4th 1999?” Oddly enough, I have no fucking idea. Looks like my defense just went down the crapper.
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“Samuel, those things I posted mean you shouldn’t just see women as sexual. They don’t mean you shouldn’t see women as sexual.
Do you get the difference?”
Yep, the difference is, if a woman “feels” like being seen as sexual it’s OK, if she doesn’t it’s a crime. That’d be sexual harrassment, and it’s a crime.
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Are you purposely throwing grapefruits out there? Cause there’s no way I can’t hit this shit outta the park!
It’s a park that only you see, NWO.
Oh good, Samuel’s back. I’m gonna pretend he’s 100 percent serious and not at all a sockpuppet.
But you don’t see women as human beings, Samuel. Nothing you’ve written here even hints at that. You were afraid to carpool with a lady because you thought you might get a boner in the car. Good lord, man. You can’t even talk about women without talking about sex, and then talking about how baaaaaaaaad it all is, and how little you want to do with it. It’s unnerving.
Here’s something you might enjoy, Samuel.
Holly stated
“Oh, and I know some people in NOMAS, and they would SHIT THEMSELVES if they found out someone thought of them as MRAs.”
Holly I am a New Breed of MRA’s. The MRA movement is not monolithic. There are MRA’s who concern themselves with Father’s rights such as Mr. Paul Elam. I love that guy. We are on the same page.
I am absolutely a solid MRA. I am an enthusiastic supporter of Fathers right’s. I love the Spearhead, Reddit, A voice for men, Anti Misandry, Mel Feit and the National Organization of men,MGTOW.
Holly if you put a room full of MRA’s together for an hour there will be more blood shed that unity. You know that. Mra’s are not unified.
Many MRA’s will criticize me. Some will agree. Some will agree with some of my opinions some will disagree.
I am an absolute hardcore MRA. It is my fucking life to be an MRA leader.
NOMAS absolutely an MRA organization. Read the website. These cats stand up for mens rights.
Some MRA’s are anti feminist some MRA’s are pro feminist pro gay in terms of asking for equality for all people.
H
Women here like Joanna NIO Magpie Holly Ozy Oam Joanna Redlocker Hellkell and all others tell me these cats are not cool dudes c’mon be honest?
I can tell you one thing absolutely accurately, Samuel. You do not understand where I am coming from. You know nothing about me, and have misunderstood my question about your definition of rape.
If a person rapes another person, and does not penetrate that person with his penis, is it still rape and is it still devastating? Is the penis the only thing that causes distress and humiliation? Or is it, you know, the lack of consent and violation of autonomy?
Your substituting a “happy penis” with a “happy heart” to me means you place the root of all evil with the penis and men’s desire for sex. I can tell you that feminists absolutely do not agree that men’s desire is wrong in itself, and that they should just stop feeling it.
And seriously, “just be careful out there”? We’re fully aware of what’s out there, including condescending prats like you.
Women here like Redlocker Joanna Pam Ozy Holly Ami Hellkel and others tell me these cats aren’t cool dudes cmon be honest
The second video is better. If you women and men here have like 6 minutes check it out. It is just a bunch of dudes raising money on a weekend charity event against sexual violence against women.. The video shows mostly dudes working with a few females. This is an awesome organization. I’m in it. These cats rock!!!
Okay, this is starting to border on spam.
NOMAS is a bunch of cool dudes. They’re feminists. They have nothing to do with MRAs, the MRM, or MGTOW movements.
I’m going out shopping now so please pardon me if I’m not around to respond to bizarre non sequiters, copy-pastes, and proclamations that you don’t have sex or talk to women because you think your sexual interest will irretrievably soil them.