Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.
It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.
Take this query, recently posted there:
My suggestion?
Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.
So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.
Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.
But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?
But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”
Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.
Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.
Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.
Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale); he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.
But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.
So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her! Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)
Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.
And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.
In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape. A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.
Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.
The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:
Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.
But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”
They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much a formula for date rape.
“However, there are some unsavory men out there. Rape does happen. Women do get raped it is a reality. Generally speaking men are physically stronger than women(not all, there are women stronger than men).”
…Ok, and you think we don’t know that already?
Again, don’t be so concerned for us. Think of yourself and where you’re headed for a bit.
Yes how dare I disagree with you and how dare I use a dictionary instead of pulling definitions out of my ass.
Huh looks like the comment I responded to disappeared
Samuel’s back and he’s from the future now? XD Why didn’t nebody tell me? xD
He’s not doing a v good job of going his own way is he o_O
On to the OP! Honestly, I think the coffee note isn’t a bad idea, provided that the person understands that it might fail and then move on…. and yes she may regard you as creepy… but… Kobiyashi Maru, remember? xD Srsly… I’m okay w/ the note, it def beats cornering a person, or having to have them respond to you in front of other ppl, or etc… I wish ppl would just slip me notes instead of blocking my way, or standing so I can’t leave the parking lot w/o running their feet over, and then telling me they want to “drink” me and etc xD
I think coffee at night (which is the Seinfeld example) means sex, but coffee before class just means coffee… doesn’t it? o_O
But the main part is, just b/c you like somebody doesn’t mean they’ll like you,or even be interested, and part of it is being okay w/ taking rejection. Just cuz you badly want somebody doesn’t mean there’s a way of being able to get w/ them, and that’s where the KM part comes in :3 And why I think PUA can be problematic, b/c it implies that there’s always a way, and it’s just about tuning up your “game and etc… and sometimes there’s just no way, and that’s okay :3
“It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.” :3
Did somebody ELSE assume Rutee is male again cuz she has a g/f? XD
If anything I would love to see people stop using the phrase “get raped.” Women don’t “get raped.” People rape women. (Similarly, I hate “get pregnant.” It implies that no one did it, it just happened.)
Nitpick over.
“Yes how dare I disagree with you and how dare I use a dictionary instead of pulling definitions out of my ass.”
Yes, how dare you be an insensitive, over-privileged douchebag. It must be really nice, never having to have dealt with your boyfriend pressuring you and pressuring you and pressuring you, until you just couldn’t take it anymore and decided to lie back and think of England.
I bet it’s really nice, never having to deal with the way society will treat you over something like that. Or the part where you have to be inside your own head, trying to deal with what happened. Or spending the next 5+ years struggling to have sex, because your own body won’t accept it and it hurts like hell. Or dealing with having that same pain with your husband, whom you love very much, simply because the things you’ve been through are in the past but they’re not actually gone.
A dictionary is completely fucking inadequate for describing what rape is, and that you’d use one to do so is vile. So shut up, because you don’t have the first clue what you’re talking about.
Magpie wrote
“Samuel, I understand stepping back from relationships while you think about life, and love, and what to do with your life – “find yourself” if you like. When you talk about saving sperm to make yourself a stronger man, that just sounds a bit silly. And, as everyone here has been telling you, you can have the hots for a woman without objectifying her, just as she can feel the same for you
Magpie When I talk about “saving sperm” it is not just to make myself stronger. I mean your a dude, don’t you feel more focused after abstaining from sex with your wife and/or masturbation for even a few weeks/months?. I am not talking about an entire lifetime.
It is freeing. A man that is freed from the bondage of “sexual craving” can transfer that powerful seed energy into his art, hobbies, work, ad yes even into his relationships. I have never been married but I am sure it could help a married man even see his own wife’s humanity more clearly-not how how she can give him an orgasm.
I have some married friends who have said they even objectify and use their own spouses at times for sex.
Samuel, I understand stepping back from relationships while you think about life, and love, and what to do with your life – “find yourself” if you like. When you talk about saving sperm to make yourself a stronger man, that just sounds a bit silly. And, as everyone here has been telling you, you can have the hots for a woman without objectifying her, just as she can feel the same for you”
Magpie I mean you a man, don’t you feel more focused after having refrained from sex for a few weeks or months? I am in no way implying an entire lifetime. A man who refrains from sex can now utilize that powerful sexual energy to focus more on his work,hobbies,creative pursuits, and yes even in his relationships.
Also Magpie Although I am a bachelor, I have heard from some married dudes that they have struggled at times with objectifying their own wive’s. Literally, using their own wives as a way to get an orgasm, not seeing her as a a human being. One can actually learn how to be a better husband.
Chocominties wrote If anything I would love to see people stop using the phrase “get raped.” Women don’t “get raped.” People rape women. (Similarly, I hate “get pregnant.” It implies that no one did it, it just happened.)
Yes I can agree with that statement. The point is when a person( generally men) rape a women, it is a someone’s body part( in this case an erect penis) forcibly going “in” and penetrating into someone’s body.
How devastating it must feel for the women being raped.
This is an interesting thread so I am trying to respond to everyone’s comments.
Redlocker wrote and, don’t be so concerned for us. Think of yourself and where you’re headed for a bit.
You implied I am concerned about the welfare of women and the toxicity of rape and sexual objectification of women. Actually, as I mentioned to some men here, this aspect of this topic really just deals in a way with us men only.
We men have to look at ourselves, re evaluate what it is to be a man. We men need to stop thinking with our penises all the time. I know I sound redundant but it is crucial.
These young kids that is men Teenage men whether in the hood or the country or suburbs need to start seeing women as people not lust hits.
Society will be better off if Men stepped up to the plate
Shesaidwut stated “Yes, how dare you be an insensitive, over-privileged douchebag. It must be really nice, never having to have dealt with your boyfriend pressuring you and pressuring you and pressuring you, until you just couldn’t take it anymore and decided to lie back and think of England.
I bet it’s really nice, never having to deal with the way society will treat you over something like that. Or the part where you have to be inside your own head, trying to deal with what happened. Or spending the next 5+ years struggling to have sex, because your own body won’t accept it and it hurts like hell. Or dealing with having that same pain with your
husband, whom you love very much, simply because the things you’ve been through are in the past but they’re not actually gone.
A dictionary is completely fucking inadequate for describing what rape is, and that you’d use one to do so is vile. So shut up, because you don’t have the first clue what you’re talking about.”
Shesaidwut WOW!!! Your a women I assume. You know where this MGTOW is coming from. If you could stand in street during a slutwalk or at Mardi Gras or in a big city on a typical Saturday nigh “club night” with a bullhorn preaching that statement, it would be Powerful,very Powerful. Sorme women need to hear what you .
For Shesaidwut’s comment I would like women here to respond to her comment?
I’m a woman. 😉
“For Shesaidwut’s comment I would like women here to respond to her comment?”
Sigh. Look, when people think of rape, they think of a violent attack down a dark ally in the middle of the night. Rape can take place at any time, any where, with someone you could be particularly close to. It doesn’t matter what the situation is, but if one person is not entirely consensual, then it is rape. End of story. Props to shesaidwut for unnecessarily spilling her guts on a public forum to make that point.
As for MGTOWers, why do you have to really make an effort to not disrespect women? I get this whole “it’s either rape or nothing” vibe when it comes to these guys. Really, I see a lot of guys who don’t obsess over what their penis tells them, so why is it such a struggle for others? I have a friend who’s a bit unlucky with the ladies but, you know, he gets on with his life. Your penis is not the center of your universe. Seriously, focus on career, hobbies, socializing, anything that doesn’t involve thinking about how your penis could potentially harm someone. Yeesh! >.>
Magpie sorry I thought you were a man based on your Gravatar. Yikes.lol.Now I know.
Joanna wrote “As for MGTOWers, why do you have to really make an effort to not disrespect women? I get this whole “it’s either rape or nothing” vibe when it comes to these guys. Really, I see a lot of guys who don’t obsess over what their penis tells them, so why is it such a struggle for others? I have a friend who’s a bit unlucky with the ladies but, you know, he gets on with his life. Your penis is not the center of your universe. Seriously, focus on career, hobbies, socializing, anything that doesn’t involve thinking about how your penis could potentially harm someone. Yeesh! >.>
Joanna, I guess some men are more sexual or hornier than others. Think of a horny man as the wildest feral Pit Bull in a cage. While the PIt Bull is caged, a man can see a woman as a human being, can actually have a more healthier relationship with a woman. A man can actually star out being friends with a woman while the Feral Pit Bull is caged.He can give to a woman emotionally without taking. The getting is in the giving.
Eventually, sex can and usually does occur and i is better sex with love and connection. Rather than just 2 people fornicating. I mean for crying out loud, whatever happened to courtship?
I HATE TO SHOUT.BUT I ASKED WOMEN ON THIS SITE TO RESPOND TO Shesaidwut COMMENT ON RAPE FROM HER PERSPECTIVE. THIS WAS ABOUT 90 MINUTES AGO.
ONLY 1 WOMAN HAD THE GUTS TO RESPOND TO Shesaidwut COMMENT. THANKS JOANNA.I MEAN THAT.
WHY DOES THIS MAKE WOMEN FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE!? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NOT JUST COLD ANONYMOUS RAPE BUT DATE RAP WHICH IS STILL A HUGE PROBLEM IN OUR COUNTRY AND OVERSEAS.
CMON LADIES I WANT TO HEAR RESPONSES TO Shesaidwut COMMENT.STEP UP TO THE MANBOOBZ PULPIT.
okay no more shouting but I am confused to how women really feel about date rape. Women on craigslist have been killed and murdered from meeting guys online.That is why craigslist has tried to remedy this problem.Date Rape is a reality that is getting worse.To have an erect penis forcibly entering a woman’s private body which is part of her humanity is atrocious and disgusting and sad at he same time.
We feel date rape is a bad thing.
We also feel date consensual sex is a good thing.
We are saddened by guys who don’t know the difference (which means not just rapists, but also guys who are afraid to have sex at all for fear it will be rape) and made happy by guys who do.
We also don’t care if you’re celibate or whatever but you need to get over the idea that it’s some wonderful favor you’re doing to the women of the world.
Thanks Holly for at least having the guts to take me on. M Scott Peck who wrote “The Road Less Travelled” one said “IF there is no friction, there is no growth.” We can agree to disagree. This whole rant by me originated with me as an MGTOW MRA stating that the PUA movement(the subject of David’s blog), is atrocious and offensive to me as a man.
In fact since I stated that by men objectifying women as sexual objects to possess not as humans could actually lead to a PUA date raping a girl. I have absolutely no respect for the PUA movement and do not even consider it part of the MRM.
I perused your blog and was struck by a blog from a few months ago..
The blog was called “bowling therapy”.In the blog, Holly had a vision of a night out of bowling between MRA’s and Feminists just to have fun and fellowship together and get know each other as people.
She writes “I want them to learn that spending time with a woman isn’t a laborious prerequisite to fucking her, but a pleasant thing in itself, a way to feel more alive and connected to the world.”
She also writes that she holds “The radical feminist opinion that you should treat women like people even if this doesn’t get you laid-but if they learn that treating women as humans leads to happy penis felling so much the better.”
I really liked those quotes. For this man, a “happy penis feeling” means a happy heart. That I have the ability to think with my head and heart not my horny flesh. That as a man I Can see women as human beings and I can absolutely refuse to sexually objectify women and still be considered masculine. In fact even more masculine than the average joe.”
Holly nailed it! Some women on manboobz asked why do I care about this as a man. Well sexism is wrong as is racism. A month ago I was cynical of anything to do with feminism. However, here is an organization I am now aligned with.
These dudes are cool and mach and masculine in my opinion
. Check em out
http://www.nomas.org/
Oddly enough, I use my wife as a way of achieving orgasm AND view her as a human being. Both at the same time. Because desire and objectification are not necessarily the same thing.
Samuel, while I respect you for at least applying the bullshit virgin/whore dichotomy to yourself, it’s still bullshit.
Say it with me five hundred thousand milionty billion times: SEXUAL ATTRACTION IS NOT SEXUAL OBJECTIFICATION. You can fuck–even fuck casually–and be a good person who respects others. You can think with your cock and your heart and your brain all at the same time and sometimes they will agree that having sex would be nice.
Sometimes women want to have sex with men. It is not disrespectful or unmasculine or objectifying to, with their enthusiastic consent, give them what they want.
Like I’ve said eleventy gazillion times, no one is trying to talk you out of your personal celibacy. But we are trying to talk you out of thinking it’s morally superior or that it’s doing women a big favor.
Holly I hate to be redundant. I am going to post again http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/search?q=bowling+therapy
For those unfamiliar with the blog post above is the link.Read it!
Holly please respond to my comment on your blog whta do you think? I mean you wrote the blog?
I perused your blog and was struck by a blog from a few months ago..
The blog was called “bowling therapy”.In the blog, Holly had a vision of a night out of bowling between MRA’s and Feminists just to have fun and fellowship together and get know each other as people.
She writes “I want them to learn that spending time with a woman isn’t a laborious prerequisite to fucking her, but a pleasant thing in itself, a way to feel more alive and connected to the world.”
She also writes that she holds “The radical feminist opinion that you should treat women like people even if this doesn’t get you laid-but if they learn that treating women as humans leads to happy penis felling so much the better.”
I really liked those quotes. For this man, a “happy penis feeling” means a happy heart. That I have the ability to think with my head and heart not my horny flesh. That as a man I Can see women as human beings and I can absolutely refuse to sexually objectify women and still be considered masculine. In fact even more masculine than the average joe.”
Holly nailed it! .
Moreover, Some women on manboobz asked why do I care about this as a man. Well sexism is wrong as is racism. A month ago I was cynical of anything to do with feminism. However, here is an organization I am now aligned with.
These dudes are cool and macho and masculine in my opinion. These cats have my mission in life down. Halelulah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Finally an Feminist organization that is clearly advocating Mens Rights as well. Moreover,there is so much potential for this organization. I’m going for it come hell or high water.
. Check em out
http://www.nomas.org/
Samuel, you just all caps yelled at women for not answering you in 90 minutes, on a weekend very early morning? Holly’s awake and online and responded, but seriously, no, you don’t get to angrily demand a response from women to your concerns. Look at that very closely, see any elements that people might take exception to?
I think Holly also nailed it with her comments here, Sam. Have you read those?