Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.
It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.
Take this query, recently posted there:
My suggestion?
Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.
So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.
Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.
But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?
But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”
Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.
Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.
Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.
Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale); he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.
But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.
So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her! Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)
Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.
And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.
In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape. A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.
Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.
The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:
Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.
But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”
They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much a formula for date rape.
Rutee Katreya wrote “You should probably try telling the MGTOW this, because they seem to spend far more time whining about not getting laid than they do… well, any other sort of activism, let me tell you what.”
Rutee your perspective on MGTOW is incorrect. The MGTOW is all about men breaking free from the bondage of Lust. The MGTOW movement is about men becoming independent of women.Not in a hateful or separatist way.But about men going within, exploring what masculinity is within themselves, not needing women to “fix” them as the atrocious PUA movement seems to want.
For an MGTOW man to say a big “NO” to sexually objectifying women goes against the grain of a media saturated society that tells men otherwise,That is being independent and a better overall masculine man.
shaenon, are you gonna put the Book of Learnin’ in a forum thread? Because that would make it much easier to find all the parts! 😛
samuel2112, I know we’ve gone over this before, but…
Lust doesn’t work like that.
Really, it doesn’t. Squishing your sexual impulses usually makes people even more unpleasant; there’s much better ways to deal with them. Like seeing women as people? Asking for consent? Wanking, even?
You keep saying that, and the other MGTOW keep disagreeing with you loudly by continuing to whine about sex or talk about how evil women are, etc.
I can declare feminism is REALLY about searching for Prester John, and that this ‘women are people’ malarkey is a barrier to that, but it ain’t gonna make feminism about the search for PRester John, because that’s not what feminists do, and it’s not what they talk about.
samuel2112:
I’m sure this is exactly true.
(Bearing in mind that the world is round)
Rutee:
Well, the impression I get is tht they whine about not having gotten laid in the past, to which they responded “you can’t fire me, I quit” and went TOW.
We’re actually just on the lookout for the next great shoe sale. Don’t let those misogynists tell you any different!
Hershele wrote Well, the impression I get is that they whine about not having gotten laid in the past, to which they responded “you can’t fire me, I quit” and went TOW.
Hershele I assume your a guy as Rutee is. No it is not about ” I quit” it is the opposite. The MGTOW movement is about reconstructing and redefining what manhood is all about. It is absolutely disgusting that a movement such as the PUA movement just reinforces the perception that many women have ( not all but many) that all men are”pigs” and all men need sex. The PUA movement views women as sexual objects to possess which actually could lead to sexual violence against women.
The MGTOW says NOT to the objectification of women. Many (not all) MGTOW men are married or in relationships with women. We say we become stronger men while actually seeing women as human beings not Sexual Objects to possess.
The PUA does the opposite. What a shame in my opinion.Hershele this in one aspect has nothing to do with women it has to do with MRA’s debating amongst ourseleves to become better Husbands, Boyfriends, Fathers etc.
Um, in what why does becoming a better husband or boyfriend not have anything to do with women? (Assuming we’re talking about straight couples here.)
Dracula wrote Um, in what why does becoming a better husband or boyfriend not have anything to do with women? (Assuming we’re talking about straight couples here.)
I should have wrote MGTOW means becoming better Human Beings ultimately. By not sexually objectifying women(talking about heterosexual men) and always on the “prowl” for sex, Men can focus their energies on Humanitarian issues like helping our world be a better place to live for all people.Kapish?
samuel2112, earlier you were talking about being chaste. Have you abandoned this line of thinking?
samuel2112, earlier you were talking about being chaste. Have you abandoned this line of thinking?
No Molly I have not abandoned being chaste. I am saying while some MGTOW men choose celibacy or permanent bachelorhood, there are many MGTOW men who are in relationships with women but choose to focus on the emotional connection as well as Physical.Something the PUA movement does not do.
For MGTOW that are single but choosing to date women, many of these guys refuse to always be “on the prowl” for sex, which is foreign to the PUA movement.
MGTOW men think with the Language of the Heart as opposed to The Language of the Penis
“MGTOW men think with the Language of the Heart as opposed to The Language of the Penis”
Guys, can “Language of the Penis” be our next meme? XD
It’s a bit like sign language. See: Puppetry of the Penis.
http://www.puppetryofthepenis.com/
I’m fairly certain a lot of people who engage in casual sex are also trying to good in the world. I am not, I feel I should clarify, defending PUAs. The problem with them is not that they’re trying to have casual sex, the problem is they’re going about in a way objectives women.
“… a way [that objectifies] women.”
Magpie wtf? Puppety of the penis? WTF site is that?
But on a more serious note, the few anti PUA movement comments I have made have been responded by men. This is a Mens issue amongst men. Magpie we men have got to step up to the plate, redefine what manhood is all about, and for crying out loud start thinking with our hearts when dealing with the opposite sex, as opposed to our penises.
We men must must!!! view women as People not sexual objects to posses. Ultimately this will elevate men as better human beings when dealing with both women AND men. We men need to discuss this amongst ourselves. It is not the womens fault.
Samuel, I understand stepping back from relationships while you think about life, and love, and what to do with your life – “find yourself” if you like. When you talk about saving sperm to make yourself a stronger man, that just sounds a bit silly. And, as everyone here has been telling you, you can have the hots for a woman without objectifying her, just as she can feel the same for you.
Puppetry of the Penis is a comedy show, where the two men manipulate their genitals into various shapes. Like the ‘white eared elephant’ sort of thing. 🙂
I gotta tell ya, samuel, my heart is not in any way opposed to my penis. The two have a perfectly harmonious relationship.
Dracula wrote “I’m fairly certain a lot of people who engage in casual sex are also trying to good in the world. I am not, I feel I should clarify, defending PUAs. The problem with them is not that they’re trying to have casual sex, the problem is they’re going about in a way objectives(sic) women.”
Right on brother!!, You got it. Nothing wrong with casual sex if you value that Just remeber their are consequences such as potential STD’s and potential feelings of shame. MGTOW is about everyone going their own way doing their own thing.You nailed it.The PUA are going in a way that objectifies women.
Rutee is female, Samuel. She’s dating a woman.
Also, I don’t WANT men to stop thinking of me in a sexual manner. I’m a sexual being; I want people to have sex with me. Flirting is fun, cuddling is fun, sex is hella fun. The problem is when people see me as ONLY a sexual being, to the exclusion of my personhood. That’s not okay. (Or when people are rapey or say “all women” about statements that do not describe my previous sexual history at all.)
ozymandias42 wrote”The problem is when people see me as ONLY a sexual being, to the exclusion of my personhood. That’s not okay. }
That is what I am saying. The problem is Ozy is that when unconscious men see you in a sexual manner, it could lead to thoughts of sexual possessiveness over women. Which means sexual objectification of women. This could lead to sexual violence against women.
However if a man is conscious and aware of this fact such as some men (like me and others who are MGTOW) can see a women’s personhood that is a different story.
Ozy my motto is liberarian-live and let live. Have sex.hink sex is fun. Go for it. Just be very very very careful out there many men are still unconscious and can be violent. Be careful.I do not want to see you or any women date raped or hurt.
Hey, Samuel/General Ripper is back! A few days ago, I thought he was hilarious because he wouldn’t respond when asked if he was a KKK member (IIRC), but in the meantime we’ve had a couple different neo-Nazis here and he’s become a lot less special.
Ozy my motto is liberarian-live and let live. Have sex.hink sex is fun. Go for it. Just be very very very careful out there many men are still unconscious and can be violent. Be careful.I do not want to see you or any women date raped or hurt.
Dude, we can take care of ourselves. We’re neither children nor legal minors.
Samuel, I know you’re trying to be…caring and altruistic, I guess, but really, you gotta look at where you’re placing yourself. Not in the sense of, “Oh yeah, I know who I am, I’m ______ and that’s all.”, I mean think about it in terms of, “Huh…how is this helping me to enjoy life?”
In short, if one is going to accept a position, one has to introspect and be honest about the benefits/flaws involved.
Voip wrote “Dude, we can take care of ourselves. We’re neither children nor legal minors”
I never said women were children or minors. I was just responding to Ozy’s statement about sex being fun. I encourage women to make adult decisions and informed choices pertaining to sex.
However, there are some unsavory men out there. Rape does happen. Women do get raped it is a reality. Generally speaking men are physically stronger than women(not all, there are women stronger than men).
Voip just be careful out there. Lots of dudes have wrong motives. I do not wish to see any women get raped or abused physically. When men sexually lust and objectify women as objects not people there is a chance that this thinking can lead to sexual assault and violence against women.