Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.
It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.
Take this query, recently posted there:
My suggestion?
Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.
So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.
Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.
But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?
But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”
Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.
Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.
Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.
Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale); he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.
But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.
So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her! Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)
Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.
And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.
In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape. A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.
Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.
The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:
Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.
But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”
They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much a formula for date rape.
He seems to mostly wish that women would come to him, which is a topic that’s already been well covered in this thread. He also suffers from the same lack of empathy that so many of them do, and assumes that men are the only ones who go through emotional turmoil while navigating the dating scene.
I just got here. Sorry for going back to the first page, but
I just gotta point out that people who seek nonconsensual sex typically are looking for something other than/in addition to an orgasm. The prevalent view that rape = sex is one of the reasons why predator-rapists are able to get away with raping women who are “less desirable” than the women they are perceived as being able to date.
I think that women should hit on men! But I don’t think they should be made to hit on every man.
Sometimes I wonder what the ideal world of the MRAs would be like. Seriously. What is their endgame here?
Sometimes I wonder what the ideal world of the MRAs would be like. Seriously. What is their endgame here?
Considering that it seems to be more of a protest movement, I’d be surprised if it had any substantive goals.
They’re angry at women when we hit on them (because then we’re whores) and when we don’t approach them we’re spitting on them. When we work, we’re taking money away from a man; when we don’t we’re golddiggers. When we don’t have kids we’re denying our biological nature/are baby-killers, but when we do we’d better not lose our figures. If we divorce and keep the kids, we’re depriving the father of his seed and gouging him through child support, but the most I’ve heard Fathers’ Rightsers ask for was shared custody, not sole custody.
blitzgal:
If all women are attractive (tautologically true if we’re only counting attractive women as “women”) and women have no sex drives of their own (and what other possible explanation could there be for the failure of nearly every woman in the world to jump on my dick?) then where would the emotional turmoil come from?
Ozy:
I don’t think they’ve thought it through quite that far.
“I don’t think they’ve thought it through quite that far.:
I don’t think thought has much to do with the process at all . . .
@ozymandias42
“Sometimes I wonder what the ideal world of the MRAs would be like. Seriously. What is their endgame here?”
Probably a world where women aren’t indoctrinated to take pleasure in their hatred of men and anything masculine. Being I’m sure your future holds a lifetime in college I thought you’d like to know Title IXs new police/judge/jury/executioner force begins this year.
The “patriarchy” rules of the game are, impartial jury, innocent until proven guilty, confronting your accuser, personal accountability, and other silly man nonsense. Now here’s a run down of the new Title IX rules, and any college that doesn’t comply doesn’t recieve federal funding. Meaning only 2 colleges in the nation. So heres womens law.
First off, all men entering college must attend the infamous, “she fears you” indoctrination where men are taught they’re vile filth. Ahh, building self esteem thru degradation. I’ll bet men as a whole will just love women after being told women hate and fear them as violent, raping filth.
Second, innocent until proven guilty. Gone! Now the burden of proof has shifted to a man proving his innocense in any complaint of sexual harrassment by a woman. Thank goodness women are getting rid of that nasty presumption of innocense.
Third, impartial jury. Gone! The jury has to read exerpts from “inside the minds of angry, controlling and abusive men,” any the many ways men are controlling. With juicy tidbit like even though he might “seem” like a nice boy, thats one of his controlling tactics. I can’t wait to hear those “impartial” verdicts!
Fourth, the right to confront your accuser. Gone! This would cause undue stress and might make a woman feel uncomfortable. And here’s the beauty of it. Say a man is simply kissing a girl who is enthusiastically kissing him back. However, it’s not his girlfriend and his girlfriend finds out. “She” can lodge the complaint that the man was harrassing and he won’t even know who he’s being accused by. This puppy is a definite win/win for women in college.
Fifth, the sex police force, judge and jury will be made up from…the faculty and student body. These highly trained feminist forces will ensure a proper investigation, a swift and speedy guilty verdict and expulsion. I give it a year or two before the “success” of these policies trickle down to include grade schools as well. Oh that’s right, the men are swine indoctrination is already in place in grade schools.
Isn’t it strange how if men aren’t doing anything wrong, women simply expand the definition of what “is” wrong into law and more men take a beating. Then you take away the right of innocense, impartiality and confronting their accuser and more men take a beating. Then you set up a “special” police force, judge and jury just for men, and more men take a beating.
Title IX; equality in sports? Is this womans law? Is this womans equality? When you ask, “Sometimes I wonder what the ideal world of the MRAs would be like?” I guess the best answer would be, a world where women stop punishing men for giving, sacrificing and even dying for women.
@Doctress Ju’ulia
I’ve noticed those low life men of vile character have now been tossed into the predator category. “(always gotta be nice to predatory scumbags, right ladies? /s)”
It’s amazing how quickly they became predatory in nature. Lock em up!
“As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” ”
That’s a pretty dated reference point.
I’ve seen lots of fellow college students ask for coffee and actually mean coffee.
“It’s also, you know, rape.”
Legally no, it’s not rape.
If a person consented without being threatened or drugged up it’s not rape. Even if they put on peer pressure.
Probably a world where women aren’t indoctrinated to take pleasure in their hatred of men and anything masculine.
What would this look like concretely and specifically? What would women do in your ideal society, and what wouldn’t they do? What would the rights and responsibilities of men be?
NWO: Yeah, you’re totally being punished for existing.
On a completely unrelated note: Daytime football games + no sunscreen + very fail skin = unhappy KathleenB. But my team beat the tar out of our crosstown rivals and I only had a couple of minor panic attacks. Fun was had!
FAIR skin, tho fail is an apt description at the moment….
Was also quite pleased to see a young lady on the sidelines, picking up the balls and making sure the refs had what they needed. Are they called ‘ball boys/girls’ in football?
Probably very much like the non-oppressive 19th century
“Probably a world where women aren’t indoctrinated to take pleasure in their hatred of men and anything masculine.”
WOMEN DON’T HATE MEN!!! Some women hate some men, but I think we can all agree you’re not going to be compatible with everyone you meet. Aside from the “manginas” NWO, I’m sure there’s some men you don’t like. Do you think they’re holding this entire conspiracy as to why you don’t like them? Very unlikely. Why? Because normal people get the fuck over it.
So, NWO, your number one goal as an MRA is to have Title IX repealed?
That is the thing that would make you the happiest?
“a world where women stop punishing men for giving, sacrificing and even dying for women.”
You mean a world where women stop punishing men for harassing, hating and even raping women. Cop the fuck on man.
This quote was from the above article
“-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.”
I have not been on this site for a while but as an MGTOW MRA, the PUA movement is an absolute disgrace. The PUA movement is an embarrassment to me as a male,
The PUA movement makes men look like idiots with no heart who think only with their cock.These PUA so called “gurus” make money off lonely men who have no life outside of trying to pick up women.
The MGTOW movement is all about men learning o be free of the bondage of lust and constant sexual craving. The MGTOW movement is about seeing women as people not as sexual objects to possess.
The MGTOW movement is as far away from The PUA movement as the east is with the west.
It’s time for men to see women as human beings and to start thinking with our hearts not our cocks.Men become more empowered by following the MGTOW way as oppossed to the servile to women, weak, “bufoonery: that the PUA guys are.
The PUA guys have no soul. It’s an absolute anathema to the honest authentic MRA movement
Every time I read NWO’s wharrgarble, I think of how reimbursing doctors for performing end-of-life counseling, something so common sense and innocuous that it’s hard to imagine anyone being against it, became “death panels” in the hands of right-wing alarmists. I imagine that much of his Title IX prattle is along the same lines.
Captain: I’ve been through the ‘end of life counseling’ twice in the past two years. It’s not really anything like the ‘death panels’ imagined by the ultra right wing. With Dad, because he was pretty with it until quite near the end, the social worker talked abut DNR, final wishes, disposition of the body, etc. Because Grandma was pretty out of it after they withdrew the antibiotics (per her living will – they would have counted as heroic measures and the likelihood of survival low even with them – pneumonia sucks, y’all), everything was handled by my mom as power of attorney. Talk with hospice was mostly about keeping her comfortable, morphine dosage, etc. And honestly, the dementia had gotten bad enough that she didn’t even recognize her great grandson by then, trying to get her to understand and talk about her own mortality would have been pretty damned futile.
Samuel again? Really?
The problem isn’t sexual attraction. You can be sexually attracted to someone and not view them as objects. Really. It happens with me and my girlfriend all the time.
You s hould probably try telling the MGTOW this, because they seem to spend far more time whining about not getting laid than they do… well, any other sort of activism, let me tell you what.
Well, there is the constant misogyny from both, so I guess in a taoist sorta way…
@jill
So, NWO, your number one goal as an MRA is to have Title IX repealed?
That is the thing that would make you the happiest?
throw in vawa and that pretty much sums him up
I’m taking notes on all of this for the Book of Learnin’. Especially the sex police forces.
What’s with MRAL and his: she won’t suck my dick, therefore she can suck my dick.
How does this make sense to him? Is sucking his dick a good thing or a bad thing?