Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.
It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.
Take this query, recently posted there:
My suggestion?
Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.
So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.
Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.
But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?
But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”
Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.
Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.
Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.
Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale); he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.
But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.
So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her! Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)
Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.
And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.
In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape. A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.
Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.
The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:
Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.
But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”
They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much a formula for date rape.
To Ozzy dearest,
Just remember, when you’re deep in your mockings and a post comes up about fatties, or skanks, or really any foul remark, you must defend those misogynist remarks. After all, being a prime example of a feminist egalitarian, “you” stood up for Doctress Ju’ulia, a fellow feminists right to do exactly that. Cyas.
“I’m asked so many which I answer while my questions are never answered. A case in point would be Ozzy dearest who claimed to answer my question, which I’ll post again.”
…That question was already answered. By Nobinayamu. In fact, here is their answer again (since you obviously skipped it):
NWO’s regendering:
“Or, even better, I get hit on by the nastiest, dirtiest, slimiest, most toothless, strung out on heroin guys in the bar. Seriously. Last night I had not one but TWO drunk-ass heroin junkies try to buy me a drink/get my number. They kept trying to touch me and tell me how ‘beautiful’ I am. Ugh. Nice to know that these are, apparently, the highest quality men I can attract. /s”
——————————-
Or, even better, I get hit on by the nastiest, dirtiest, slimiest, most toothless, strung out on crack whores in the bar. Seriously. Last night I had not one but TWO drunk-ass crack whores hit on me to get me to buy them a drink. They kept trying to touch me and tell me how ‘hot’ I am. Ugh. Nice to know that these are, apparently, the highest quality women I can attract. /s
—————————-”
Answer:
“Yeah, neither of these statements is remotely problematic. No one is obligated to to accept drinks from anyone who is attempting to flirt with them. Regardless of gender, anyone is allowed to make a snap judgment about a person approaching them and decide that they are not interested and/or find the person repulsive for whatever reason. There are skeezy heroin addicts and crack whores who hit on people in bars. Those people are allowed to be sketched out from being hit on by a drug addict.
So if she accepted the drinks, she’d be “sucking down free drinks” from someone she deemed unworthy. If she didn’t accept the drinks she was being a stuck-up bitch for thinking that she was too good to accept a drink from someone she deemed unworthy. If she accepted the drinks and made it clear that she wasn’t interested in flirting/conversation/sex/what have you, she’d be a hypocrite. If she didn’t accept the drinks, she’d be a hypocrite. If she accepted the drinks and had sex with the guy she found repulsive she’s be a slut. If she accepted the drinks and didn’t have sex with the guy she found repulsive she’d be a tease causing sexual frustration and putting herself at risk for rape.
That about sum it up, NWO? Anything Doctress Julia could have done correctly in this situation other than stay at home and not be “whoring it up” (that’s what you said on one of the elevator threads) in a bar?”
So…thoughts?
Yes, add Creationist to his other beliefs.
“David K. Meller is probably the closest thing we have to an exciting troll, if only because he sounds like a Dr. Bronner’s soap ad.”
HAHAHHAHAHA!
@shesaidwut
“If you simply ignore or deny the very existence of the answers people give you, then it is virtually impossible for anyone to ever actually answer you. Through no fault of their own, I might add.”
The question was simple. Since everyone of you “have” already mocked any ridiculed comments of the regendered version I gave as misogyny, why won’t you do the same for the comment by Doctress Ju’ulia? She didn’t answer the question.
“Since the regendered version is misogyny extreme, is the original misandry extreme?”
This was already answered by Nobinayamu which you conviniently ignored, but anyway: THE REGENDERED VERSION IS NO MORE OR LESS PROBLEMATIC. Aside from the term ‘crack whore’ isn’t at all equal to ‘strung out on heroin’. Now: what should Doctress Julia have done in this situation that would have satisfied you?
“Of course all this sounds suspicously like, In the begining there was nothing, then the heavens were created, (planets, stars, ect.), then the oceans and land, then the plants, then the fishes, then the animals, and finally man was created. ”
Inorite, what a strange coincidence. Almost like a farily accurate allegory! Or some shit.
“in the begining all the mass of the universe was about the size of a fingernail, (before that they say they don’t know, maybe nothing).”
Just because you don’t know something doesn’t mean you should make up a load of stuff to explain it.
What we are witnessing is NWOslave’s ability to make any statement about men about all men who ever were. He’s hearing “I went to a bar and two guys who looked like they were on drugs hit on me” as “I went to a bar just to sneer at all the men there: they were all dirty crack addicts, because they are men!”
NWO, Doc Julia was trying to make a point about *ageism*: the cultural bias against people that are older/look older than say, 20. Remember, the convo started with people talking about how women are never rejected in dating, so Doc J gave an example of how women are often rejected by not being approached, or after a certain age are only approached by really desperate people.
SO: how do you feel about cultural bias against older men and older women in dating, NWOslave? Do you think getting older means most people get hit on less, no matter the gender? Do you think that’s worth talking about?
But that’s not what’s actually in the bible. The bible has the order of creation entirely wrong. The earth is made before the stars, for god’s sakes. Land animals are made *AFTER* birds. It’s entirely inaccurate, as an allegory. NWO just twisted the correct order into biblical sounding language.
Sigh, stupid religious upbringing and using the same metaphors. “Creation” doesn’t follow the order of the universe’s… well, coming into existence as it’s known.
NWO: If your idea of refutation of the Big Bang, Biogenesis and Evolution (which are three separate things, but we’ll let that stand) is, Before that there was nothing, and where did it come from… then the problem still remains.
Because you are saying, instead, “There was God”.
Where did God come from? How did god come into being?
If you complain that the Model of the Big Bang is full of handwavium (which isn’t something I can speak to, I don’t have the math), then the problem of the existence of God has the same problem.
Pointing to Exodus and saying, “I am that I am” shows God ever was, is nonsense. It’s a glorified version of, “I’m right because I say you’re wrong.”
Moreover, your version makes God to be small, petty and lacking in imagination. I’d rather have a divine figure with the sense of wonder to set up the universe with the ability to make intelligence. To set it in order and see how it all comes out. A “prime mover”, as Newton describes it. The being who set Earth in the Heavens and a gem in a chandelier, and revels in the way it sparkles, as Robert Farrar Capon put it.
I don’t want some miserable God who puts all the evidence to show the world and the universe as we see them, just to trick us. You can keep Him, I’ll take the wonder.
Hi everyone, delurking to say I agree with kysokisaen on the troll thing. I’ve enjoyed reading this blog for awhile but it seems that too often lately threads get hijacked and turned into big bash-fests, or derailed just as the discussion is getting good, by NWO, or Anthony Zarat, or that Juan something guy. I guess one solution would be for everyone to just stop responding to them? They’re obviously doing this to get a rise and comments out of people, that is the classic definition of a troll. And at this point, not even mocking them or demolishing their arguments is fun anymore, because they don’t seem to notice or care, and the damage to the thread is done. Those are just my thoughts anyway, as Mr. Futrelle will do as he thinks best. Back to lurking now.
NWO: The question was simple. Since everyone of you “have” already mocked any ridiculed comments of the regendered version I gave as misogyny, why won’t you do the same for the comment by Doctress Ju’ulia? She didn’t answer the question.
No. No one, in fact has said it was misogynistic.
I’m going to try to put this in simple enough language to prevent you misunderstanding it.
Your version is just fine. If a woman, for whatever reason, hits on you, and you don’t like it, you are, allowed, entitled, encouraged, to say no.
If she offends you, you can say that too.
That is what Nobinayamu said. It’s what Ozy said. It’s what I’d have said if I thought you had the wit, and honesty, to read anything which is directly said to you.
I’ve thought for some time you weren’t lacking in intelligence, just comprehension, that you were so stupefied by the twaddle you’ve absorbed, about “INTERNATIONAL FEMINISM” and ALL CAPS, and The International Bankers, and God know what all else, that the plain facts were too much at odds with your understanding to make much impression.
But this, this is precious. Because they are agreeing with you. Here you have it, your victory over feminism… you have a situation where you can be critical of women and we support you in it.
And you are too stupid to sit back and enjoy your conquest.
NWO: Yes I am, and I’ve explained quite clearly why I am. I’m sure you find it mock-worthy, but since thinking for yourself runs counter to your ideology, I take whatever you say with a grain of salt as well.
This would be funny, if it weren’t so sad. Presented with evidence, on any number of topics, from evolution to law, from finance to lingustics, you have done nothing but parrot the words of others (from ALL CAPS to “THE FED” to, the Rothschilds”, to CREATION), almost all of it without the slightest sense that you investigated any aspect of it.
So much so that you didn’t take the time to see that you were quoting neo-nazis, and didn’t think to look at what, besides being a large family of bankers, who happened to be Jewish (and what about all that proselytising?), also made wine.
But you think that not believing in the Creation as told by your religious books (and what makes your creation story better than the Hindu version?) but instead the more credible (if less exalting of Mankind) story told by a bunch of shepherds in the wilderness?
What made them so special that alone, of all the people in the world, God chose to slip them the Real Deal on how the Deed Was Done?
“The question was simple. Since everyone of you “have” already mocked any ridiculed comments of the regendered version I gave as misogyny, why won’t you do the same for the comment by Doctress Ju’ulia? She didn’t answer the question.”
Actually, not every one of us has. Though if you’d like, I can join the party. Let it never be said that I’m unwilling to participate.
The question has been answered. You choose to continue ignoring that answer. If you can’t accept something as an answer, don’t ask questions.
Rutee: NWO didn’t twist it. Other people have. He’s just parroting the “Creation Science” people who want to make the “Intelligent Design” argument, and use the broadest strokes of Genesis as proof that the two are in accord.
It’s what he considers thinking for himself, sort of like believing in the Illuminati, and the Proselytising Jews.
I think NWO should be limited to one out of five threads, so that those of us who like tangling with him can keep tangling with him, and those of us who don’t can actually talk about relevant topics. Not sure how that could be arranged, though.
“But that’s not what’s actually in the bible. The bible has the order of creation entirely wrong. The earth is made before the stars, for god’s sakes. Land animals are made *AFTER* birds. It’s entirely inaccurate, as an allegory. NWO just twisted the correct order into biblical sounding language.”
Ahh yeh, I’m not really versed on this stuff because basically all my family and friends are non-religious. I should probably fact-check everything NWO says just in case anyway!
Yet another example of NWO’s stupidity. The weeds weren’t modified by man; the crops were. The weeds EVOLVED a resistance to the herbicide because of Monsanto’s agricultural monopoly. Instead of many different herbicides, everyone uses the same one. And the weeds have adapted to survive it.
Same goes with the superbugs. They’ve adapted a resistance to the pesticide that Monsanto has genetically spliced into the corn, in order to survive.
You’re the only one who can’t intelligently debate here.
blitzgal: That’s not fair to NWO, There’s Meller, and TAB, and EWME, and any number of others who are as bad (or worse in their ways) as NWO. Most of them come and go. He has the quality of persistence.
Nwoslave, these are the adjectives Julia used:
Nastiest, dirtiest, slimiest, most toothless, strung out on heroin, drunk ass, heroin junkies
Do they seem like gender specific insults? To me they seem to be insults against drug and alcohol addicts.
You added “whore” to your regendered version which is a gender specific insult.
I’ve decided, fuck that cute girl sitting in class. She can suck my dick (metaphor). I’m tired of that shit. Maybe if the Her Holy Highnesses stopped being treated like Jesus Christ they might get off their fucking asses and make some god damn effort of their own. Then these creepy men might start seeming less creepy, when those arrogant fucking HHHes get an idea of what it’s like to, you know, do something.
I’m sure the cute girl in class is secretly weeping at her missed opportunity, MRAL.
Or, you know, she may never have noticed you but would have no problem speaking to someone who spoke to her. Or maybe she’s shy. Or maybe shes waiting to figure out how to talk to you. Or maybe she has a boyfriend and isn’t particularly interested in anyone in her class. Or maybe she has a girlfriend and Isn’t particularly interested in anyone in her class. Or maybe she’s just really studious.
But you’ve already decided that she’s a stuck up bitch -I’m sorry, a her holy highness- so what do you care?
MRAL, you’re a vile little human, and substituting in an even more biting cipher for ‘bitch’ isn’t acceptable, nor is it how you remove gendered insults from your vocabulary. Women aren’t treated super awesome. Even the conventionally attractive ones suffer somewhat, especially at assumptions of incompetence.
But by all means, stop speaking to women, I’m sure that’ll be appreciated by everyone.
I’m speaking metaphorically, fyi.
I think I’ll continue associating with women, but I’ll merely speak to them as if they were a man. If they don’t like that, too fucking bad.