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creepy men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny nice guys PUA rape rapey reddit sexual harassment

If at first you don’t succeed, grope her

This might work, actually.

Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.

It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.

Take this query, recently posted there:

My suggestion?

Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.

So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.

Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.

But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?

But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”

Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.

Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.

Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.

Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale);  he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.

But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.

So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her!  Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)

Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.

And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.

In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape.  A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.

Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.

The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments  get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:

Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.

But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”

They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much  a formula for date rape.

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blitzgal
9 years ago

If you’re in the same class with someone who you would like to get to know better, you have the perfect opening lines to strike up a conversation with her. Talk about the class….talk about the homework, something funny that happened in class, whatever. See where things go from there. This is not rocket science.

The note thing doesn’t work and is not received well. Take this from a shy girl who has utilized the note approach in the past. While this should not be news to any human being with an ounce of empathy, shy girls also have a hard time finding out ways to talk to guys (or girls) who they are interested in.

Johnny_B
Johnny_B
9 years ago

“I’m in college, and in one of my classes there’s a real cute girl I’d like to get to know.”

Ah yes a clear case of a would-be rapist who can’t understand the notion that women are people. It’s a good thing this dangerous predator has been unmasked before he could do any permanent harm like talking to this girl or even (avert your eyes if you’re sensitive) passing her a note. How would people ever get along without Dave’s insightful advice (which in this case seems to say “don’t approach any women, ever”…?)

But seriously, aside from the usual snide little quips, I wonder what advice the MB gang would actually give this guy?

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

I think I’d be okay with inviting/getting invited to coffee, but verbally. Then it’s also easier to be clear that you honestly mean coffee the beverage-consumed-fully-clothed-in-a-public-cafe rather than “coffee.” (Passing a note, though? Are we 12-year-olds? Do you write “do you like me? check yes or no” on it too?) And yeah, talking to someone in a shared class is eeeeasy, or at least as easy as talking to a stranger can ever be. You can chat with her about something relevant to the class rather than, I dunno, cornering her alone and grabbing her arm (the only other way to meet women, apparently! :p)

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

That bathroom one from sixate is extremely fucking creepy — going into someone’s house and not leaving is super illegal for a reason, and if that bastard gets shot in the face someday he deserves it.

Also reminds me of this charming story: http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/08/31/eric-angell-admits-to-raping-a-woman/

blitzgal
9 years ago

Johnny, the first post David talks about was obviously part of a continuum which culminated in a guy being told to get inside the girl’s house in order to wear her down until she felt like she couldn’t say no. Read the entire post before spouting off your whiny bullshit.

And I gave advice in the very first response in this thread.

KathleenB
KathleenB
9 years ago

Johnny: Well, my first recommendation is that he NOT walk up to a woman he doesn’t know and just start touching her. Touching someone without permission is rude at best and triggering at worst – people who touch me unexpectedly are like to get an elbow somewhere sensitive, as my husband has learned to his sorrow.

blitzgal
9 years ago

Bagelsan, the really frightening thing is that many of them would not consider that example to be rape.

For anyone who hasn’t seen this video that Bagelsan has linked, an open mic night in Chicago featured a guy who talked about working at a restaurant. A drunk woman gave her phone number to a bartender who didn’t want to hook up with her. So he gave the phone number to this guy, who then called her, pretended to be the bartender, then showed up at her hotel room and pushed his way inside when she opened the door and realized that the wrong guy showed up.

Basically, it’s the end result of sixate’s advice above.

Pecunium
9 years ago

Johnny: Who said this guy was a potential rapist?

I figure talking to her about the class, asking if she has time to meet, on campus, to talk about the class, grab a cup of coffee, etc. is a good way to do things.

It’s what I do when I have a common interest with someone, and a common piece of time we might talk about it. Sometimes it leads to romance, sometimes it doesn’t.

KathleenB
KathleenB
9 years ago

Adding: The elbow thing is not really under my control. I do not like to be touched unexpectedly or by strangers, it makes me jumpy and causes anxiety attacks. Which makes being in crowds a trial. Large crowds such as the one expected at the sold out crosstown rivalry football game I’m going to tomorrow require medication. Even peak times at the grocery store can freak me out.

Jules
Jules
9 years ago

There are better links on the Angell situation,
http://splitsider.com/2011/08/one-night-at-asssscat-or-what-to-do-with-a-date-rape-monologue#comments
http://jezebel.com/5834712/is-this-comedy-monologue-a-rape-confessionhttp://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2011/08/30/140056318/your-friends-are-not-your-audience-a-disturbing-internet-lesson-in-perspective

The only thing I’ve taken issue with in this particular debacle, is that at this point we believe we know what happened, but we don’t actually know. I feel pretty certain it’s an “escalation” into nonconsensual sex, but it also could be a story he made up, and told, very badly.

I’d put money on it being assault, but want the proper authorities to deal with it, which apparently they are. Second City talked to the cops.

It’s nasty and man I know sex is fun and all, but is an orgasm worth all that domination and effort? When if you just go about relationships a little differently you could have MORE and better ones?

ozymandias42
9 years ago

What Pecunium said. Also, if she wears a shirt for a band or a movie, or pins buttons on her bag related to a particular interest, you can ask her about them. Most people like talking about things they’re interested in.

The creepy bit is that I also seduce people via cuddling while watching movies. Of course, if they say “no” I listen, so.

Johnny_B
Johnny_B
9 years ago

Yeah, I basically agree with the advice about talking to her before class, seeing if you have common interests etc. It was mainly the tone of the piece that irritated me, with the smugness and the snarky “remember women are people too” and the “I’m a man, I want to put my penis in you and will pretend to care about what you think if you let me” lines.

It’s a bit like if someone asked for advice on how to succeed in business and got told things like “well, you gotta remember to make more money than you spend!” and “money doesn’t grow on trees, you know!” – it’s not useful, just condescending and insulting.

BTW, I think there’s some confusion between kino and escalating. Kino just means light touching, like on the arm or something, to build rapport, and NOT continuing if it’s not well received. I’ve actually had more women do this to me than I’ve seen men do it, and it usually felt pretty good. Again, this doesn’t mean ignoring the person’s signals or continuing when they don’t seem receptive. You’re just headed for trouble otherwise.

blitzgal
9 years ago

Kathleen, I’m the same way about stranger touching. I avoid crowds at all costs. And similarly, if a stranger clamps a hand on my arm or presses against me on the bus, they get shouldered. It’s an involuntary defensive response.

But frankly it should be common sense that you do not intrude on a person’s personal space unless invited. And don’t put your hands on people you don’t know!

Magatha
Magatha
9 years ago

Johnny B, my advice would be to imagine how you’d feel if you were her, then act that way. I’d say something like, “Hey, would you like to go for coffee? My treat. I have another class in an hour, but I’m seriously under-caffeinated. Oh, I’m Johnny B., by the way.”

Then if she says anything other than “Sure!”, you say, “Okay, well, maybe another time” and you go away.

You’ve clarified in your original request that the coffee-getting is not code for sex, that she will have a short, self-limited time – in public – to assess whether she feels comfortable with you and interested in you. You’ve said you’ll treat, which indicates that you understand that you have invited her, that it is a social thing and not an impromptu study group. You’ve said you’ll treat in advance of her decision, which indicates that the terms of your mutual coffee-getting aren’t dependent on whether she acts the way you want her to act.

And if she declines, you make yourself understand that it may have nothing to do with you, so you act courteously. So even if she doesn’t feel like going out with you at all, ever, she’ll know you can act like a normal person, and so will the people who see this interaction, and so will anyone who asks her what you are like.

Wisteria
Wisteria
9 years ago

It can be worse than going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out for coffee. To wit:

When I was in college, I had a German class with a man in Air Force ROTC who was rather odd. He ran everywhere, on his tiptoes, and this was when the only people who ran were children and athletes. When he translated into or from German, he would make up words, English words, German words. And he never talked to any of his fellow classmates.

One morning he ran into class before our prof had arrived, sat down, turned to the prettiest woman in the class, and asked her to a ROTC formal dance. She said no, she had a boyfriend. Then he turned and asked me. I said no thank you and he turned to another woman and asked her. He was on his fourth invitation when the prof arrived and the class started.

I know it must have been horrible for him, and it was one of the most uncomfortable situations I’ve been in.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

Kino just means light touching, like on the arm or something, to build rapport, and NOT continuing if it’s not well received.

Ew ew ew. If you tried that with me, don’t expect to get that hand (or your dignity) back in one piece.

KathleenB
KathleenB
9 years ago

Kino just means light touching

Even lightly touching a stranger is… eh, it’s a minefield. There are people who are fine and shiny with social touching, and people like me, and it just seems disrespectful to me to assume that someone else is okay with it. I would err on the side of caution – is it really necessary to touch random strangers?

blitzgal
9 years ago

Okay, I had to google kino touch and the level of planning and calculation that goes into it is creepy. A light touch on the arm while you’re talking to someone is a normal expression that’s just part of our nature as social animals. But if it isn’t something that happens spontaneously as you feel it in the moment, it might come off as odd to the other person, especially if it’s obvious that you’re not even listening to what the person is saying because you’re so busy waiting for just the right moment to touch him or her. Just throwing that out there.

Johnny_B
Johnny_B
9 years ago

Johnny B, my advice would be to imagine how you’d feel if you were her, then act that way. I’d say something like, “Hey, would you like to go for coffee? My treat. I have another class in an hour, but I’m seriously under-caffeinated. Oh, I’m Johnny B., by the way.”

Then if she says anything other than “Sure!”, you say, “Okay, well, maybe another time” and you go away.

Sounds good to me. In fact, this is almost the exact scenario that happened between myself and a girl I used to work with. She told me she wasn’t interested in a relationship at that time. A week later she had a new boyfriend. Le sigh.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

Then he turned and asked me. I said no thank you and he turned to another woman and asked her. He was on his fourth invitation when the prof arrived and the class started.

Oh too bad; the fifth try might have been the charm! :p

But yeah, I’m not surprised that a guy with (apparently) extremely limited social skills would so blatantly treat the women around him as perfectly interchangeable objects. It’s one thing to say “you’re hot, wanna get coffee at the campus cafe?” — which is brash but not misogynistic, as it could easily be said by or to anyone and is at least specific to the individual addressed — but saying the equivalent of “you have a vagina, wanna go out?” is pretty insulting (especially if you’re just the vagina-in-line that’s closest!)

KathleenB
KathleenB
9 years ago

Ew ew ew. If you tried that with me, don’t expect to get that hand (or your dignity) back in one piece.

I’ve actually parried incoming touches when I could see them. Fencing training FTW!

Johnny_B
Johnny_B
9 years ago

Regarding kino, maybe it’s also a cultural thing? I already know that Americans have a wider personal space than other cultures, and in my country for example, not touching at all during an interaction/flirting with somebody might make you seem cold or uninterested. Reading the other person is important, but I just don’t see how a relationship could ever evolve if you’re constantly afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

especially if it’s obvious that you’re not even listening to what the person is saying because you’re so busy waiting for just the right moment to touch him or her.

Lolmygod I would be a terrible PUA — I’m great at chatting and joking with people, but the second I have some sort of objective in mind I completely lose track of the conversation. If I were told I had to “casually” touch someone at some point I would start derping pretty hard and probably forget my own name. Better just to practice your conversational skills — like I do — with anyone you can, rather than train for bizarre contrived scenarios like going in for a “kino” (is that a noun?) Goodness knows just being able to talk to a woman like a normal human being will probably go miles further than poking and observing her like a lab rat.

Johnny_B
Johnny_B
9 years ago

“I know it must have been horrible for him, and it was one of the most uncomfortable situations I’ve been in.”

Yeah, I bet how thrilled the ladies were not only to be asked out by this weirdo, but also to be the third/fourth in line…

blitzgal
9 years ago

“Sounds good to me. In fact, this is almost the exact scenario that happened between myself and a girl I used to work with. She told me she wasn’t interested in a relationship at that time. A week later she had a new boyfriend. Le sigh.”

That could have been the truth, or she could have been trying to spare your feelings and not be mean to you. Either way, what is your point? Should every woman you’re interested in be required to take you out for a test drive?

Captain Bathrobe
9 years ago

It’s usually a good idea to establish some rapport before moving on to asking someone out. Even a couple of shared glances could be helpful, rolling your eyes at something the professor said, etc. Our friend on the seddit (who seems just like an average guy who needs some advice on meeting women, not a rapist at all) could ask her about the reading before or after class (“what did you think of this week’s chapter?”). If she mumbles something and moves away, then he knows it’s a no go. If she talks to him and his friendly, then he can keep working on building rapport and then maybe take the leap to asking for coffee. That’s what I’d do, anyway.

Johnny_B
Johnny_B
9 years ago

Okay, I had to google kino touch and the level of planning and calculation that goes into it is creepy. A light touch on the arm while you’re talking to someone is a normal expression that’s just part of our nature as social animals. But if it isn’t something that happens spontaneously as you feel it in the moment, it might come off as odd to the other person, especially if it’s obvious that you’re not even listening to what the person is saying because you’re so busy waiting for just the right moment to touch him or her. Just throwing that out there.

To be fair, most of that advice is aimed at socially-clueless introverts, who actually have to teach themselves the behaviors that come naturally to other people. The end goal is, in fact, to make the touch a normal, spontaneous expression in a social setting. But before they get there, some have to practice it consciously.

Captain Bathrobe
9 years ago

Johnny B, is your country is Central Europe, by any chance?

Captain Bathrobe
9 years ago

in Central Europe

Pecunium
9 years ago

Ozy:The creepy bit is that I also seduce people via cuddling while watching movies. Of course, if they say “no” I listen, so

I am presuming, from context, that you are already in some form of relationship where contact is expected/allowed?

re touching. I am a fairly fond of casual touch, with people I know. I am fairly open to casual touch, from people I know. I am not so comfortable with casual touch from people I don’t know.

I may deflect it. I may tell the person to not do that. If taken unawares, or in way which seems threatening, to me, I may react forcefully.

The whole PUA rationale behind kino is as a form of social engineering. It’s designed to move the PUA into the real of people the target is comfortable with, without her making a conscious decision about it, and so get inside her guard.

It’s not that touching people is creepy, it’s that the motives behind kino are.

blitzgal
9 years ago

“Lolmygod I would be a terrible PUA — I’m great at chatting and joking with people, but the second I have some sort of objective in mind I completely lose track of the conversation. If I were told I had to “casually” touch someone at some point I would start derping pretty hard and probably forget my own name. Better just to practice your conversational skills — like I do — with anyone you can, rather than train for bizarre contrived scenarios like going in for a “kino” (is that a noun?) Goodness knows just being able to talk to a woman like a normal human being will probably go miles further than poking and observing her like a lab rat.”

I have this trouble as well, which is why I brought it up. I do very well in small group settings where I know everyone, but am terribly shy with strangers. Many times I’m stuck in my head reminding myself of all of the normal social things that a person needs to do….like, don’t talk about yourself too much, don’t take over the conversation, LISTEN to what they are saying instead of waiting for the next pause so you can speak. I have a bit of social phobia that goes back to childhood. It gets better with practice like you say, and as I get older.

One thing that these guys need to understand is that there are a lot of women with the exact same self-esteem issues and social awkwardness. It will only help them in the end, viewing us as actual people who have all the same thoughts and feelings that they do.

Johnny_B
Johnny_B
9 years ago

Either way, what is your point? Should every woman you’re interested in be required to take you out for a test drive?

Nah, she was probably just trying to let me down easy. I didn’t blame her or anything, it was just a random anecdote I remembered on this occasion.

For what it’s worth, our department manager at that same store was a bit of a “pickup artist”. He was aggressive and the “smooth ladies’ man, will talk your head off and won’t take no for an answer” type. Pretty soon after he got there he was dating one of the girls and last I heard they were going off on vacation together. Make of that what you will.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

Regarding kino, maybe it’s also a cultural thing?

Oh sure, that wouldn’t surprise me a bit. But more than just an “American” thing, I think that it depends on what social circles you hang out in and what your personality is. A lot of my friends and I are geeky and introverted, and more than a few of us are non-neurotypical, and for us being touched by strangers is abnormal and almost universally met with dismay. (Any touching is rare, in fact; one woman I’ve known for years, and we’ve hugged all of once that I can think of. :p) And I’ve had to tell someone off for being too feely because he was making all of us uncomfortable (I’m the designated “bitch” when it comes to things like that :D) but some of my friends were too polite or nervous to say a word to him.

And that’s a huge objection I have to this whole “try touching her and wait to get yelled at or not” thing — I’m worried that PUA are targeting the girls who can’t comfortably say “no” when they’re always trying to push the interaction further and further. I am just as likely to tell the guy to fuck off (if possible) but I’m the designated bitch for a reason, and lots of women are better trained to stay quiet than I am.

KathleenB
KathleenB
9 years ago

Johnny: I’m not saying never touch someone (that would be stupid), I’m saying that waiting until you know a bit more about their comfort level would be nice. Your comfort level with something should not be the barometer by which you judge other’s.

Johnny_B
Johnny_B
9 years ago

“Johnny B, is your country is Central Europe, by any chance?”

Central/Eastern, kinda (Romania). But I’ve also lived in Canada and Germany for 14 years.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

“Sounds good to me. In fact, this is almost the exact scenario that happened between myself and a girl I used to work with. She told me she wasn’t interested in a relationship at that time. A week later she had a new boyfriend. Le sigh.”

You know why we do this, right? Because a lot of guys out there won’t take a straight-forward “no” for an answer. She was trying to let you down easy.

Johnny_B
Johnny_B
9 years ago

Bagelsan: Definitely, personality factors hugely into it. I know one girl who absolutely doesn’t like being touched, and others who positively enjoy it (within the limits of appropriateness, of course :p ) But you don’t have to yell at the guy. Simply using body language like pulling away should be enough to signal that he shouldn’t continue. If he does, (some guys are just clueless or malicious, but hopefully the former) just tell him politely but firmly that he should stop doing that.

Jules
Jules
9 years ago

There are better links on the Angell situation,
http://splitsider.com/2011/08/one-night-at-asssscat-or-what-to-do-with-a-date-rape-monologue#comments
http://jezebel.com/5834712/is-this-comedy-monologue-a-rape-confessionhttp://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2011/08/30/140056318/your-friends-are-not-your-audience-a-disturbing-internet-lesson-in-perspective

The only thing I’ve taken issue with in this particular debacle, is that at this point we believe we know what happened, but we don’t actually know. I feel pretty certain it’s an “escalation” into nonconsensual sex, but it also could be a story he made up, and told, very badly.

I’d put money on it being assault, but want the proper authorities to deal with it, which apparently they are. Second City talked to the cops.

It’s nasty and man I know sex is fun and all, but is an orgasm worth all that domination and effort? When if you just go about relationships a little differently you could have MORE and better ones?

KathleenB
KathleenB
9 years ago

Jhnny: I don’t yell unless I have to (too loud, didn’t take a hint, etc). I’m only seeing one other reference to yelling here – no one has said they’d yell at someone for unwanted social contact.

KathleenB
KathleenB
9 years ago

Ugh, last comment should be directed at JOhnny – sorry.

shesaidwut
shesaidwut
9 years ago

I don’t think you should ever touch a person before you have some hints that they’d be comfortable with it. And trust me, those are there.

But the thing is, you never know who people are, where they’re from, what may have happened to them. Being both a rape survivor and autistic, I can tell you that it would be a very bad idea to just touch me out of the blue. Bad for you, and extremely upsetting for me.

If you’re at all interested in a person, why would you want to risk really upsetting them?

katz
9 years ago

If a guy is clueless enough to need instructions on how to incorporate touch into interaction, I doubt he’ll respond to body language signaling him to stop.

shesaidwut
shesaidwut
9 years ago

“If a guy is clueless enough to need instructions on how to incorporate touch into interaction, I doubt he’ll respond to body language signaling him to stop.”

To be honest, I don’t believe for a second that that’s down to someone being “clueless”. The kind of body language that comes with disinterest is often very loud. If a guy can’t realize that a girl leaning away from him means she’s not interested, he’s got other problems than simple cluelessness.

Jules
Jules
9 years ago

@shesaidwut right

It’s been indicated in studies that people are highly attuned to the “no” but some choose to ignore it.
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/mythcommunication-its-not-that-they-dont-understand-they-just-dont-like-the-answer/

Magical Laura (@_magical_laura)

I think touching can work if you already know the other person is gonna be into it… If I’m flirting with a guy I think is hot + would enjoy a bit of kino, I normally would try + close the space between us slightly maybe…laugh, smile, extended eye contact. At THIS point (probly end of the night or a few meetings depending on how you roll) a touch on the arm is super awesome + electric for me 😀

Random guy or guy I’ve had a 10min conversation with touching me on the arm would feel gross and weird.

Johnny_B
Johnny_B
9 years ago

If you’re at all interested in a person, why would you want to risk really upsetting them?

True, but how are you ever supposed to escalate if you’re perpetually afraid that anything you do might potentially upset that person? Especially if they feel the same way? We’re not mind readers nor perfect interpreters of someone else’s body language. Best most of us can do is try something and have the sense to back off if it doesn’t work. If both partners are mature, functioning adults, a small faux-pas, recognized and admitted to in time, shouldn’t stand in the way of developing a relationship, and might be a better choice than what I can only call ‘cold politeness’.

Pecunium
9 years ago

I interact in a number of circles where body contact etiquite is very different SF Fandom/SF Poly communities/Ottawa Fandom/Poly Communities/Maker Communities/Orthodox Jewish/Modern Orthodox Jewish/Quaker/Army/Work (American Retail, and food service, and photography).

In all of them (save the Orthodox Jewish), the rule on touch is largely, “ask first”. When it doubt, I defer to offers made to me.

I manage to keep all of them straight,

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

But you don’t have to yell at the guy. Simply using body language like pulling away should be enough to signal that he shouldn’t continue.

It wasn’t…

If he does, (some guys are just clueless or malicious, but hopefully the former) just tell him politely but firmly that he should stop doing that.

…so I did. And yes, the vast majority of guys I deal with are clueless rather than malicious, but that doesn’t mean the targets of their cluelessness feel any better. Guys have a responsibility to educate themselves to a bare minimum of social competence before inflicting themselves on women.

If both partners are mature, functioning adults, a small faux-pas, recognized and admitted to in time, shouldn’t stand in the way of developing a relationship, and might be a better choice than what I can only call ‘cold politeness’.

Surely we aren’t calling those Seddit/PUA guys “mature, functioning adults” are we? Because yeah, with actual mature, functioning adults being sensitive to body language and non-verbal cues is fine, but these guys aren’t quite sure that breaking and entering + rape is bad, so I think you’re giving them too much credit. :p

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

I have to say, I probably would laugh at the coffee written on the forehead and agreed to go out with the guy who did that. I not only like to laugh, I like to write things on my forehead too. 😛

Johnny_B
Johnny_B
9 years ago

Surely we aren’t calling those Seddit/PUA guys “mature, functioning adults” are we? Because yeah, with actual mature, functioning adults being sensitive to body language and non-verbal cues is fine, but these guys aren’t quite sure that breaking and entering + rape is bad, so I think you’re giving them too much credit. :p

Yeah, when I said “mature, functioning adults” that’s what I meant. I got no defense for the “keep escalating” PUA crowd. That’s just messed up.

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