Say what you will about the dedicated PUAs (Pick-Up Artists) of the world: at least they sometimes actually talk to real human women. The guys in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, I’m not so sure about.
It’s kind of sad, sometimes, to read the plaintive requests for advice on Seddit (as it’s known) from college guys who’ve fixated on some girl in some class of theirs, and want desperately to learn the secret formula to get into her pants. These aren’t guys who’ve mastered the art of “negging” women with clever little mini-insults (a favorite PUA technique); these are guys who haven’t quite grasped that you have to actually talk to a woman in order to ask her out.
Take this query, recently posted there:
My suggestion?
Write “coffee?” on your forehead, and stand in front of her. Point at your forehead if necessary.
So, yeah, I’ve been banned from Seddit.
Look, I feel for the guy. I’ve been that guy.
But just think of it from the point of view of the girl. Some guy you’ve never spoken to, some guy who doesn’t know a thing about you other than you make him feel funny in his pants, approaches you out of the blue and … slips you a note?
But really, the problem there isn’t the note. Well, part of the problem is the note, But the main problem is that college dude has never spoken to her before. As anyone who has watched Seinfeld knows well, “coffee” means “sex.” Going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out is a bit like saying “hi, you make me feel funny in my pants. I would like to put my penis in you. Perhaps we could chat a bit first. Though, clearly, I don’t care what’s in your actual brain, because here I am asking you out based on nothing more than the fact that you cause that aforementioned feeling in my pants.”
Pro-tip for lonely guys: remember that women are actual human beings also.
Now, this poor Sedditor got some good basic advice from the crowd there, basically boiling down to: figure out an excuse to talk to her before class, and see how it goes.
Now, Seddit may be mildly useful in giving this sort of basic advice to the truly hapless. But it doesn’t seem to be very good at getting across the notion that women are human.
Indeed, there was a strikingly similar question posted in Seddit a couple of days ago: a guy who wanted to ask out the only girl in his engineering class. His post, in stark contrast with the note guy, was bristling with PUA acronyms and lingo: the girl was an “HB8” (Hot Babe that he rated an 8 of 10 on the hotness scale); he was on the lookout for IOSs (Indications of Interest) from her, and so on and so on.
But his strategy was strikingly similar to that of the AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) with the note: he was going to walk up to her after class and ask her out for dinner. But he was planning to add one more “technique” to his approach: “kino.” In PUA-speak, kino means touch.
So, yeah, that’s what he learned from all his study of advanced PUA-oloogy: just start touching her! Women are eager to jump into bed with guys who come up to them out of the blue and start groping them. (The post itself was deleted after it got linked to in the ShitRedditSays subreddit, so no link.)
Trouble is, this guy is not the only one getting the message that Pick-up artistry is all about invading a woman’s personal space and “escalating” until she literally fights you off or given is. This is, in fact, the basic message of the PUA who calls himself Gunwich – a man who not that long ago (allegedly) shot a woman I the face after she refused his advances.
And, yes, pressuring a woman until she gives in, or up, is one way of getting in her pants. It’s also, you know, rape.
In recent days a number of Sedditers have posted advice that is little more than a how-to of date rape. A number of instances were pointed out in ShitRedditSays, and were deleted by the Seddit moderators. It’s clear this is damage control; a number of regulars on ShitRedditSays have been banned from posting in Seddit – many of whom had actually never posted there in the first place.
Here’s a discussion of one copy-and pasted date rape guide that got deleted before anyone made a screencap.
The Seddit mods say this is “fringe” stuff that doesn’t reflect how most Sedditors think. Then how is it that some of the creepiest comments get dozens of upvotes? Take this Sedditor’s advice on how to get inside a woman’s house (and then her pants) that I managed to screencap before it was deleted:
Now, there is plenty of PUA material that is not rapey. Manipulative, sure. Dopey, absolutely. But not rapey. A good Pick-Up Artist, in theory at least, should be able to tell when a woman is interested and when she isn’t, and move on when she isn’t.
But it’s clear that many Sedditors aren’t learning that whole “if she’s not interested, move on” thing. They’re learning: “if she’s not interested, pressure her and manipulate her, and wear her down. And be sure to touch her. Sorry, “kino escalate.”
They’re not learning empathy. They’re learning stupid human tricks. And, worse, they’re learning to ignore a woman’s “no,” to treat it as what PUAs call LMR – that is, Last Minute Resistance. And that’s pretty much a formula for date rape.
If you’re in the same class with someone who you would like to get to know better, you have the perfect opening lines to strike up a conversation with her. Talk about the class….talk about the homework, something funny that happened in class, whatever. See where things go from there. This is not rocket science.
The note thing doesn’t work and is not received well. Take this from a shy girl who has utilized the note approach in the past. While this should not be news to any human being with an ounce of empathy, shy girls also have a hard time finding out ways to talk to guys (or girls) who they are interested in.
“I’m in college, and in one of my classes there’s a real cute girl I’d like to get to know.”
Ah yes a clear case of a would-be rapist who can’t understand the notion that women are people. It’s a good thing this dangerous predator has been unmasked before he could do any permanent harm like talking to this girl or even (avert your eyes if you’re sensitive) passing her a note. How would people ever get along without Dave’s insightful advice (which in this case seems to say “don’t approach any women, ever”…?)
But seriously, aside from the usual snide little quips, I wonder what advice the MB gang would actually give this guy?
I think I’d be okay with inviting/getting invited to coffee, but verbally. Then it’s also easier to be clear that you honestly mean coffee the beverage-consumed-fully-clothed-in-a-public-cafe rather than “coffee.” (Passing a note, though? Are we 12-year-olds? Do you write “do you like me? check yes or no” on it too?) And yeah, talking to someone in a shared class is eeeeasy, or at least as easy as talking to a stranger can ever be. You can chat with her about something relevant to the class rather than, I dunno, cornering her alone and grabbing her arm (the only other way to meet women, apparently! :p)
That bathroom one from sixate is extremely fucking creepy — going into someone’s house and not leaving is super illegal for a reason, and if that bastard gets shot in the face someday he deserves it.
Also reminds me of this charming story: http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/08/31/eric-angell-admits-to-raping-a-woman/
Johnny, the first post David talks about was obviously part of a continuum which culminated in a guy being told to get inside the girl’s house in order to wear her down until she felt like she couldn’t say no. Read the entire post before spouting off your whiny bullshit.
And I gave advice in the very first response in this thread.
Johnny: Well, my first recommendation is that he NOT walk up to a woman he doesn’t know and just start touching her. Touching someone without permission is rude at best and triggering at worst – people who touch me unexpectedly are like to get an elbow somewhere sensitive, as my husband has learned to his sorrow.
Bagelsan, the really frightening thing is that many of them would not consider that example to be rape.
For anyone who hasn’t seen this video that Bagelsan has linked, an open mic night in Chicago featured a guy who talked about working at a restaurant. A drunk woman gave her phone number to a bartender who didn’t want to hook up with her. So he gave the phone number to this guy, who then called her, pretended to be the bartender, then showed up at her hotel room and pushed his way inside when she opened the door and realized that the wrong guy showed up.
Basically, it’s the end result of sixate’s advice above.
Johnny: Who said this guy was a potential rapist?
I figure talking to her about the class, asking if she has time to meet, on campus, to talk about the class, grab a cup of coffee, etc. is a good way to do things.
It’s what I do when I have a common interest with someone, and a common piece of time we might talk about it. Sometimes it leads to romance, sometimes it doesn’t.
Adding: The elbow thing is not really under my control. I do not like to be touched unexpectedly or by strangers, it makes me jumpy and causes anxiety attacks. Which makes being in crowds a trial. Large crowds such as the one expected at the sold out crosstown rivalry football game I’m going to tomorrow require medication. Even peak times at the grocery store can freak me out.
There are better links on the Angell situation,
http://splitsider.com/2011/08/one-night-at-asssscat-or-what-to-do-with-a-date-rape-monologue#comments
http://jezebel.com/5834712/is-this-comedy-monologue-a-rape-confessionhttp://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2011/08/30/140056318/your-friends-are-not-your-audience-a-disturbing-internet-lesson-in-perspective
The only thing I’ve taken issue with in this particular debacle, is that at this point we believe we know what happened, but we don’t actually know. I feel pretty certain it’s an “escalation” into nonconsensual sex, but it also could be a story he made up, and told, very badly.
I’d put money on it being assault, but want the proper authorities to deal with it, which apparently they are. Second City talked to the cops.
It’s nasty and man I know sex is fun and all, but is an orgasm worth all that domination and effort? When if you just go about relationships a little differently you could have MORE and better ones?
What Pecunium said. Also, if she wears a shirt for a band or a movie, or pins buttons on her bag related to a particular interest, you can ask her about them. Most people like talking about things they’re interested in.
The creepy bit is that I also seduce people via cuddling while watching movies. Of course, if they say “no” I listen, so.
Yeah, I basically agree with the advice about talking to her before class, seeing if you have common interests etc. It was mainly the tone of the piece that irritated me, with the smugness and the snarky “remember women are people too” and the “I’m a man, I want to put my penis in you and will pretend to care about what you think if you let me” lines.
It’s a bit like if someone asked for advice on how to succeed in business and got told things like “well, you gotta remember to make more money than you spend!” and “money doesn’t grow on trees, you know!” – it’s not useful, just condescending and insulting.
BTW, I think there’s some confusion between kino and escalating. Kino just means light touching, like on the arm or something, to build rapport, and NOT continuing if it’s not well received. I’ve actually had more women do this to me than I’ve seen men do it, and it usually felt pretty good. Again, this doesn’t mean ignoring the person’s signals or continuing when they don’t seem receptive. You’re just headed for trouble otherwise.
Kathleen, I’m the same way about stranger touching. I avoid crowds at all costs. And similarly, if a stranger clamps a hand on my arm or presses against me on the bus, they get shouldered. It’s an involuntary defensive response.
But frankly it should be common sense that you do not intrude on a person’s personal space unless invited. And don’t put your hands on people you don’t know!
Johnny B, my advice would be to imagine how you’d feel if you were her, then act that way. I’d say something like, “Hey, would you like to go for coffee? My treat. I have another class in an hour, but I’m seriously under-caffeinated. Oh, I’m Johnny B., by the way.”
Then if she says anything other than “Sure!”, you say, “Okay, well, maybe another time” and you go away.
You’ve clarified in your original request that the coffee-getting is not code for sex, that she will have a short, self-limited time – in public – to assess whether she feels comfortable with you and interested in you. You’ve said you’ll treat, which indicates that you understand that you have invited her, that it is a social thing and not an impromptu study group. You’ve said you’ll treat in advance of her decision, which indicates that the terms of your mutual coffee-getting aren’t dependent on whether she acts the way you want her to act.
And if she declines, you make yourself understand that it may have nothing to do with you, so you act courteously. So even if she doesn’t feel like going out with you at all, ever, she’ll know you can act like a normal person, and so will the people who see this interaction, and so will anyone who asks her what you are like.
It can be worse than going up to a woman you’ve never spoken to before and asking her out for coffee. To wit:
When I was in college, I had a German class with a man in Air Force ROTC who was rather odd. He ran everywhere, on his tiptoes, and this was when the only people who ran were children and athletes. When he translated into or from German, he would make up words, English words, German words. And he never talked to any of his fellow classmates.
One morning he ran into class before our prof had arrived, sat down, turned to the prettiest woman in the class, and asked her to a ROTC formal dance. She said no, she had a boyfriend. Then he turned and asked me. I said no thank you and he turned to another woman and asked her. He was on his fourth invitation when the prof arrived and the class started.
I know it must have been horrible for him, and it was one of the most uncomfortable situations I’ve been in.
Ew ew ew. If you tried that with me, don’t expect to get that hand (or your dignity) back in one piece.
Even lightly touching a stranger is… eh, it’s a minefield. There are people who are fine and shiny with social touching, and people like me, and it just seems disrespectful to me to assume that someone else is okay with it. I would err on the side of caution – is it really necessary to touch random strangers?
Okay, I had to google kino touch and the level of planning and calculation that goes into it is creepy. A light touch on the arm while you’re talking to someone is a normal expression that’s just part of our nature as social animals. But if it isn’t something that happens spontaneously as you feel it in the moment, it might come off as odd to the other person, especially if it’s obvious that you’re not even listening to what the person is saying because you’re so busy waiting for just the right moment to touch him or her. Just throwing that out there.
Johnny B, my advice would be to imagine how you’d feel if you were her, then act that way. I’d say something like, “Hey, would you like to go for coffee? My treat. I have another class in an hour, but I’m seriously under-caffeinated. Oh, I’m Johnny B., by the way.”
Then if she says anything other than “Sure!”, you say, “Okay, well, maybe another time” and you go away.
Sounds good to me. In fact, this is almost the exact scenario that happened between myself and a girl I used to work with. She told me she wasn’t interested in a relationship at that time. A week later she had a new boyfriend. Le sigh.
Oh too bad; the fifth try might have been the charm! :p
But yeah, I’m not surprised that a guy with (apparently) extremely limited social skills would so blatantly treat the women around him as perfectly interchangeable objects. It’s one thing to say “you’re hot, wanna get coffee at the campus cafe?” — which is brash but not misogynistic, as it could easily be said by or to anyone and is at least specific to the individual addressed — but saying the equivalent of “you have a vagina, wanna go out?” is pretty insulting (especially if you’re just the vagina-in-line that’s closest!)
I’ve actually parried incoming touches when I could see them. Fencing training FTW!
Regarding kino, maybe it’s also a cultural thing? I already know that Americans have a wider personal space than other cultures, and in my country for example, not touching at all during an interaction/flirting with somebody might make you seem cold or uninterested. Reading the other person is important, but I just don’t see how a relationship could ever evolve if you’re constantly afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing.
Lolmygod I would be a terrible PUA — I’m great at chatting and joking with people, but the second I have some sort of objective in mind I completely lose track of the conversation. If I were told I had to “casually” touch someone at some point I would start derping pretty hard and probably forget my own name. Better just to practice your conversational skills — like I do — with anyone you can, rather than train for bizarre contrived scenarios like going in for a “kino” (is that a noun?) Goodness knows just being able to talk to a woman like a normal human being will probably go miles further than poking and observing her like a lab rat.
“I know it must have been horrible for him, and it was one of the most uncomfortable situations I’ve been in.”
Yeah, I bet how thrilled the ladies were not only to be asked out by this weirdo, but also to be the third/fourth in line…
“Sounds good to me. In fact, this is almost the exact scenario that happened between myself and a girl I used to work with. She told me she wasn’t interested in a relationship at that time. A week later she had a new boyfriend. Le sigh.”
That could have been the truth, or she could have been trying to spare your feelings and not be mean to you. Either way, what is your point? Should every woman you’re interested in be required to take you out for a test drive?