Are MGTOWers all a bunch of closet romantics? In a recent discussion of some research which concluded that men value kissing and cuddling more than women in long-term relationships, a number of the regulars on MGTOWforums.com confessed that they … actually missed the affections of women.
BeijaFlor reported
I’ve gotten along for decades without sex OR cuddling. And I miss the cuddling, the snuggly affectionate feel of a loving partner, FAR more than I miss the sex. That’s one reason why I don’t call the call-girls; all they offer is the sex.
Golem added:
I’m going to have to agree with the touch thing, too. Hell, I can cut my own hair, but I’ll still drop the cash to have it done with a wash and a scalp massage just for the contact.
That’s actually just really … sad.
Even Nightstorm2516 — the legendary theorist of the Mousetrap Vagina – offered a poignant confession of his own:
I don’t know anyone elses reasoning for cuddling over sex but my own personal reason would be a huge deprivation in my life of affection. I get zero from women so thats a no-go for me. My male friends think hugging is gay via society programming so men show affection by “bumping fists” and “being cool”. My dad IS anti-affection. My mom showed me some affection, but she was so busy working to the bones, I don’t think I ever got enough. My sister and brother never showed me any love.
I think I value cuddling just because its something I never got to do. 26 Years without affection.. dam thats a long time.
That’s actually sort of heartbreaking – at least until I remember that this is the same guy who once argued that vaginas were like strange venom-injecting mousetraps:
This poison … creeps into the male brain and literally makes him stupid, it shuts down his intellect, and activates all his hormones for more pussy. She’s got the bastard. Now she can slowly but surely take all his wealth and keep pumping more poison into him.
It sucks – I mean really, genuinely sucks — that you got no affection from your parents, dude. But if you view women as monsters secretly plotting to entrap you with their vagina-poison, you’re not likely to get a lot of affection from them.
If you want to live a life that has more to it than bitterness and misery, get yourself off of MGTOWforums.com and find a good therapist.
And whatever you do, don’t listen to avoidwoman, MGTOWforums’ budding futurist, who thinks he’s got a woman-free solution to the affection deficit: perfectly realistic robogirls, which he predicts will be here in 2030. (Let’s just hope they’re a bit more reliable than the Cherry 2000 model.)
Yep, we’re back to the topic of sexy robot ladies.
In several comments in the thread, starting with this one, avoidwomen explained his waiting game:
I personally don’t even care for sex and I never want it. I would love romance, such as cuddling and kissing but not with human women, only women substitutes! …
I will get the chance to cuddle as much as I want by 2030 with robogirls and probably earlier when VR technology becomes advanced enough for the simulation to feel realistic. …
The few times I got the chance to be romantic with women, I really enjoyed it and never thought of going “further” or being “sexual” whatsoever. …
Then we got a reminder of just why he’s not getting affection from real, live human women:
Nowdays I just avoid women like the snakes they are! …
I am no white knight in real life, I will not protect a woman. But when VR and robogirls come, I will hold them in my arms. My robogirl will protect me outside the house and inside the house, I will cuddle and hold her. 🙂
Someday, his robotic princess will come.
This is one of the few posts I’ve seen that actually makes me feel genuinely sorry for MRAs. I believe that a lot of them had a fucked up childhood and then came into adulthood with a significant disadvantage in terms of relating to women/people in general. Since they turn a lot of people off, they as adults still can’t get the love they crave, but they see “everyone else” (not really, but that’s their perception) getting it, so they feel bitter and alienated and thus have even more of a disadvantage.
Of course, we as adults still have to make good choices even if our families didn’t, so I’m not excusing how nasty and full of bile they are. Also, a bit of self-awareness might help them grasp that they are NOT entitled to have a perfect, beautiful mommy-girlfriend swoop in and give them unconditional love, because the women they want this kind of thing from are also people with their own problems and needs. As a woman, I’ve totally wanted an amazing guy to come in and rescue me from all my worries and love me no matter how bitter I am. As I’ve matured, though, I’ve realized that this person doesn’t exist, and I really don’t mind that now. I’d rather have a connection with my partner, who is a real person and has his own needs, than with a robo-man slotted to fill a Prince Charming fantasy.
Therapy would maybe help these guys. What might be even better would be getting to really know people and understanding just how needy we all are, rather than wasting time trying to find that magical person or robot who will finally round out their world and satisfy their every desire.
“@AntZ …have you ever had female friends?”
Most of my friends used to be female. I rarely associate with them now. The imbalance in power (law enforcement/civil court/criminal court) increasingly leads prudent men to avoid casual contact with women.
I have lived a long and fulfilling life, and have had mostly positive experiences with women.
I have two boys, 7 month and 7 year old. I witnessed the horrifying dehumanization that K-12 public schools inflict on boys. My son is routinely humiliated and denigrated by the feminist public school system. This convinced me that men and women can never share the same society.
I asked for help from “feministe” regarding the New York anti-boy dehumanization campaign back in October 2010. Their indifference to the suffering of boys led me to a moderate men’s rights group:
http://www.pellebilling.com/2010/11/misandry-hits-ny/
I was an idiot, criticizing my fellow MRA’s and begging for the help of feminists:
“Jim, I guess what I am trying to say is that I wish you had not used the term “scalded hogs.” If men’s sites cannot become less hostile to women, feminists will never visit. And, without the help of feminism, masculism is going nowhere.”
I have come a long way since then. I now know that men are fighting for the lives of our boys. I know that if we fail, my sons will grow into a life of indentured servitude, where men are regarded as little more than beasts who live for the utlity of women.
Why do you ask? No one’s individual story matters. The only story that matters is told in the courts and in the legislature. Why not crow of your countless victories there, feminist?
Johnny_B: No! No! Why do all the misogynists like me? I AM VERY UNLIKEABLE AND TORTURE PUPPIES.
Rutee: I want to shake them too! There’s a whole world of people falling in love out there, and they can experience it. It’s like they’re trapped in a cage and the whole time the door was unlocked.
kilo: It’s a vicious cycle, I think. The loneliness feeds into the hatred feeds into the loneliness feeds into the hatred, reinforced by a community that finds misogyny okay. Human beings are social animals; if you feel like no one cares about you… that shit fucks you up. Some people it fucks up by making them hateful. I condemn the hate, of course, and I make fun of it, but… sometimes I feel bad for them.
I’m another one of those “there but for the grace of my gender go I” people. I might have ended up a MGTOW if I were male and had discovered those people in high school…
This is backwards. I do, generally speaking, feel sorry for people who are lonely and starved for affection. But my sympathy begins to ebb when I realize that their lonely state is largely of their own making. Because who on earth would want to be around someone so bitter, hateful and deluded? What do they have to offer a friend or a lover, except the unexciting prospect of having to absorb the poison of their anger and entitlement issues? Sadness, loneliness, emotional privation — that’s just life. We all experience it to varying degrees. The only people who will ever love you unconditionally — if you are lucky — are mom and/or dad. Maybe your siblings. With everyone else, relationships have to be negotiated. You don’t get something for nothing. If you want another person to bring some pleasantness into your life, you’ve got to bring some pleasantness into theirs. If you are trying, and it’s not working — consider the much likelier possibility that you are doing something wrong, rather than that people whom you would otherwise want in your life are all out to get you, en masse. If you happen to be a loner by nature, you have to come to terms with what you are, enjoy life on in your own skin and cherish the few bonds that you manage to sustain in your life.
It’s a major milestone in the process of growing up, realizing that the world doesn’t in fact, hate you. Half the world doesn’t hate you, either. It’s more like, the world doesn’t care. After you realize that, you have a choice: become slightly kinder and non-crazier, and people will be more drawn to be your friends and cuddling-buddies, or embrace the livid hatred of half of humanity and “go your own way” in an act of defiance that’s somehow supposed to make the opposite sex realize you are entitled to their affections. In the latter case, the world will continue not caring, and the only person stung, hurt and deprived will be you.
So I do feel sympathy, but I will not discount the importance of free will and people’s moral obligation to apply some rationality to their lives. In the end, we all choose what we become.
I’ve never been in a real relationship, so I’m not really sure what my reaction would be to cuddling (or sex, for that matter). I know that, with my heightened sensory reaction, my stupid brain interprets being touched as violation. Hugging never feels very comfortable, even at its most tolerable. At the same time, I crave physical affection. Crave it despite knowing that I probably wouldn’t enjoy it. It’s very confusing and frustrating.
But anyway, those guys are clearly morons. The robot wives would turn on them in ten seconds flat. Haven’t they ever seen a movie? Robot servants can’t be trusted.
“I have lived a long and fulfilling life, and have had mostly positive experiences with women.”
Dude, you’re fucking forty! Get over yourself. You’ve barely begun; your children are still babies. Your experiences with women have been “mostly positive” by your own admission and yet you allow your fear to rule you so completely that the best vision you can imagine for yourself is a world where you don’t have to interact with women?
You. Have. A. Wife. Right there, working beside you to raise your children with you and build a life with you and you have the audacity to tell complete strangers that she would be better if she were a series of binary codes, projected into your brain via laptop and digital contact lenses?
What the fuck is wrong with you? You worry about raising your sons in a feminized public school system and yet you think that exposing them to the contempt you have for their mother is just fine? And I don’t give a shit what you say about how much you love her, what you express here for her and women is nothing but contemptuous.
There are real and legitimate issues regarding education and young boys that need to be addressed. There are real and legitimate issues regarding education, regardless of gender, that need to be addressed. Artificial wombs and dreams about exploring the great barrier reef, however, are not going to do it.
Your vision of a utopia where men and women live completely separate lives is yours. Own it. Say, “This is what I want.” Have the courage of your fucked up convictions. Sit across the table from your wife and tell her that you dream of the day when men and women can finally be rid of each other. Take responsibility for your beliefs.
“Also, Antz, what do you think of my assertion that there are *already* people of both genders who spend a great deal of time in elaborately constructed fantasy worlds? They’re called “authors”, “bloggers”, and “cosplayers”. You could have the life of your dreams RIGHT NOW!”
I am living the life of my dreams. I am fighting for the freedom and dignity of my people. I am one of a tiny number of warriors calling for liberty amidst the maelstrom of feminist man-hate. I have lived to see that voice heard.
Already, we are making a difference. Freedom begins to triumph over bondage. Love over hate. Compassion over cruelty. It begins. YOU are on the wrong side of history. Not me.
What greater dream could a man have?
Amused: I know it’s their own fault. I wouldn’t wish being in a relationship with a MGHOW on my worst enemy, either. 🙂 But I still feel bad for them and wish I could magically give them the ability to have a functional adult human relationship and replace their anger and entitlement with the ability to bring joy to others.
“Freedom begins to triumph over bondage. Love over hate. Compassion over cruelty. It begins. YOU are on the wrong side of history. Not me.”
Now here’s the funny bit AntZ… I’d say the same thing about you.
On topic: I remember when the study came out about men wanting to cuddle and a few essays and newscasters (NPR, natch) seeming so puzzled.
I’ve always found men to be very desirous of not necessarily sexual expressions of physical affections. In fact, in my admittedly anecdotal experience, some of the “toughest” guys I’ve known have been some of the biggest cuddle-bunnies. I’m curious about whether or not that’s held true for other posters who have romantic relationships with men.
Nothing about men wanting to be held surprises me in the least. It does sadden me, though, that so many feel that they can’t express it.
So tell him to go see a therapist. And to try several until he finds one he is comfortable with. That is what we did with MRAL and it has helped a little. And tell him the truth about women-that we are people and some are good, some are bad and most are just in between.
Not that we are poison injecting harpies who will suck him dry of any money he may have.
Because you don’t give a concrete example of the “horrifying dehumanization of boys,” I followed your link, AntZ. A domestic violence awareness campaign that features young boys is not proof that feminists have overtaken public education at large and are systematically dehumanizing boys. Talk about hyperbole.
The last poster in your collection features a woman with a barcode stamped on her forehead, by the way. I understand that this is part of your context that this ad campaign assumes that only men are abusers, but from that same standpoint couldn’t you argue that the young woman who is modeling for it is just as “dehumanized” as the boys?
” … Get over yourself … you allow your fear to rule you so completely …”
Trust is the antidote to fear. In what shall a man trust in this world? The police? The courts? The legislature?
You should follow your own advice, and get over yourself. Stop grovelling for scraps of female attention. Rise up. Demand justice. Be a part of something greater than yourself.
Is YOUR dream to be a puppet? A perpetual supplicant? A doormat?
We move on. With or without you, we move on. Be a part of it, or be left behind.
AntZ, what are you huffing? Because I wouldn’t mind some right now.
Never know until you try. And even then it may just be a matter of working up to it (I hate being touched most of the time but after a while it seems to be okay with some guys.)
So let me see if I’ve got this straight…making a campaign based on the fact that a person or a group of people believes that even young boys are smart enough and compassionate enough to listen when they’re told to treat women like human beings rather than objects is misandrist now?
It’s better to treat boys as obnoxious little shits who will never understand that it’s not okay to rape and beat women? Is that it? Because that’s what I’m getting here. I mean, in human language, not in crazy delusional nutbag MRA language.
” … couldn’t you argue that the young woman who is modeling for it is just as “dehumanized” as the boys? …”
Yes. Feminists dehumanize men and women equally. All women are victims, all men are perpetrators. Both are equally dehumanized.
However, I don’t care about the second half. That is YOUR problem.
“I am living the life of my dreams. I am fighting for the freedom and dignity of my people. I am one of a tiny number of warriors calling for liberty amidst the maelstrom of feminist man-hate. I have lived to see that voice heard.
Already, we are making a difference. Freedom begins to triumph over bondage. Love over hate. Compassion over cruelty. It begins. YOU are on the wrong side of history. Not me.”
“You should follow your own advice, and get over yourself. Stop grovelling for scraps of female attention. Rise up. Demand justice. Be a part of something greater than yourself.
Is YOUR dream to be a puppet? A perpetual supplicant? A doormat?”
Eeeeehehehehehehehe!!! This is GLORIOUS. I want to steal these and submit them to one of those writing contests for the most ridiculous, hyperbolic, purple prose a person can come up with.
Except that would be plagiarism and as a writer I know that’s wrong. Still, thanks for the laugh, AntZ. I needed that after the day I’ve been having. Awesomesauce, dude. Keep up the good work. XD
“Why do you ask? No one’s individual story matters. The only story that matters is told in the courts and in the legislature. Why not crow of your countless victories there, feminist?”
I ask because, as I said in my post, your desire for segregation of the sexes is very alien to the world I live in, where men and women enjoy each others’ company and would not desire segregation, regardless of the state of their current romantic/sex lives.
I do not have any particular desire to get into a “who’s got it worse in the courts” argument right now, though for purposes of explaining my position I will say this: I agree that there are certain areas where there is bias against men, in both the courts and larger society. Misogyny and misandry often go hand-in-hand, in my experience.
I have no desire for an advantage over men and boys. I don’t think I personally know a feminist who does. I do not see this as a battle between sexes. Society, social rules, and human interactions are complex things that cannot be reduced solely to the Patriarchy (or a matriarchy, as the MRAs often talk about). I do believe that, in our current society, men typically hold more power than women (I know you disagree here, and I’d like to avoid that argument at present because it’s not the point).
The point is that I think your desire for sex-segregation is…misplaced. You discuss men and women as if those are the major lines that divide us, the two teams, and all other affiliations and associations are secondary. I do not believe that is true. It’s a cliche at this point, but first of all: It’s not a zero-sum game. There is no reason men and women cannot hold equal power in society. There is no reason for men and women as groups to oppose each other.
Also, the very notion of gender as the major dividing line (as I mentioned above) is arbitrary and worth relating. When I look at my own life and relationships to other people, my own social groups, “one of us” typically has little to do with gender. There are many men I relate to and many women I relate to. There are also many men and women I do not relate to. Just because someone is a women doesn’t mean I feel like I can identify with her, and just because someone is a man doesn’t mean that I can’t identify with him.
The idea that the sexes are somehow in opposition to each other, and will only find peace when separated is very silly from my perspective.
And also totally discounts people who don’t fit neatly into the binary. But that’s a whole other post, and I’ve already been quite wordy.
Wow. Some of you are saying there is nothibng wrong with putting these adds in a 1st grade class. Wow. OK, do yourselves a favor, and do the following thought experiment:
Fact 1: According to the centres for disease control, 329 men and 1181 women were murdered by intimate partners in 2005. This disparity (22% versus 78%) is the justification for focussing exclusively on males when dealing with domestic violence.
Fact 2: According to the US department of Health and Human services, fathers murdered 138 children and mothers murdered 288 children in 2006. The disparity in murders of children (32% versus 68%) is even greater if all forms of child abuse are included (30% versus 70%).
>>> How would feminists react to an anti-child abuse campaign that featured young FEMALE children dressed in gang-like attire and instructed parents to “teach your daughters young and teach them often not to abuse or murder children”.
It is just as valid to teach only boys to “not hit” as it is to teach only girls to “not kill”. The numbers are almost exactly equivalent.
How would you feel, if your SIX YEAR OLD daughter had a poster saying “teach your daughters young and teach them often not to abuse or murder children” in her CLASSROOM?!?
Can you people EVEN SEE YOURSELVES?!?
“There are real and legitimate issues regarding education and young boys that need to be addressed. There are real and legitimate issues regarding education, regardless of gender, that need to be addressed. Artificial wombs and dreams about exploring the great barrier reef, however, are not going to do it.”
Also, that.
“Fact 2: According to the US department of Health and Human services, fathers murdered 138 children and mothers murdered 288 children in 2006. The disparity in murders of children (32% versus 68%) is even greater if all forms of child abuse are included (30% versus 70%).”
Does that control for time spent with the child?
Empty, empty rhetoric and delusions of grandeur. You people are the quintessential example of someone who couldn’t “…bust a grape in a food fight…”
All of these absurd grandiose visions of a life of separation between sexes and the “differences” you’re making and none of you can coordinate so much as a drop of organized and constructive activism to support your deeply held convictions. Internet warriors, the lot of you.
My family participated in demonstrations that shook this nation’s ideas about itself down to its very foundations. You people won’t sully yourselves with so much as an organized boycott, despite having all the tools of modern technology and communication at your fingertips.
You try to turn the tragedy of Thomas Ball’s self-immolation, a man who abandoned his wife and children after abusing his 4 year old daughter, into your Rosa Parks and then cry foul when the rest of us won’t share your outrage. In your forums you talk of “taking action” while you allow the lunatic fringe of your movement to advocate shooting police officers and bombing family courts.
Sci-fi, Zarat. That’s the ticket for you. That’s about as seriously as you and your ideas need to be taken. You’re already pretending to be a miraculously unpublished scientist. Take it further and allow yourself to be completely absorbed in your fantasy.
Just try to step out every so often and play with your boys. Spend as much time being with them as you do fearing for them.
Fuck. I just participated in one of your derails out of sheer disgust.
Start your own blog.
I sorta doubt robot cuddling is ever going to really work. You’d have to simulate not only skin texture, muscle, fat, bone, breathing, heartbeat, but also scent, pheromones. I mean, ok, not TOTALLY impossible but definitely further away than 2030.