Are MGTOWers all a bunch of closet romantics? In a recent discussion of some research which concluded that men value kissing and cuddling more than women in long-term relationships, a number of the regulars on MGTOWforums.com confessed that they … actually missed the affections of women.
BeijaFlor reported
I’ve gotten along for decades without sex OR cuddling. And I miss the cuddling, the snuggly affectionate feel of a loving partner, FAR more than I miss the sex. That’s one reason why I don’t call the call-girls; all they offer is the sex.
Golem added:
I’m going to have to agree with the touch thing, too. Hell, I can cut my own hair, but I’ll still drop the cash to have it done with a wash and a scalp massage just for the contact.
That’s actually just really … sad.
Even Nightstorm2516 — the legendary theorist of the Mousetrap Vagina – offered a poignant confession of his own:
I don’t know anyone elses reasoning for cuddling over sex but my own personal reason would be a huge deprivation in my life of affection. I get zero from women so thats a no-go for me. My male friends think hugging is gay via society programming so men show affection by “bumping fists” and “being cool”. My dad IS anti-affection. My mom showed me some affection, but she was so busy working to the bones, I don’t think I ever got enough. My sister and brother never showed me any love.
I think I value cuddling just because its something I never got to do. 26 Years without affection.. dam thats a long time.
That’s actually sort of heartbreaking – at least until I remember that this is the same guy who once argued that vaginas were like strange venom-injecting mousetraps:
This poison … creeps into the male brain and literally makes him stupid, it shuts down his intellect, and activates all his hormones for more pussy. She’s got the bastard. Now she can slowly but surely take all his wealth and keep pumping more poison into him.
It sucks – I mean really, genuinely sucks — that you got no affection from your parents, dude. But if you view women as monsters secretly plotting to entrap you with their vagina-poison, you’re not likely to get a lot of affection from them.
If you want to live a life that has more to it than bitterness and misery, get yourself off of MGTOWforums.com and find a good therapist.
And whatever you do, don’t listen to avoidwoman, MGTOWforums’ budding futurist, who thinks he’s got a woman-free solution to the affection deficit: perfectly realistic robogirls, which he predicts will be here in 2030. (Let’s just hope they’re a bit more reliable than the Cherry 2000 model.)
Yep, we’re back to the topic of sexy robot ladies.
In several comments in the thread, starting with this one, avoidwomen explained his waiting game:
I personally don’t even care for sex and I never want it. I would love romance, such as cuddling and kissing but not with human women, only women substitutes! …
I will get the chance to cuddle as much as I want by 2030 with robogirls and probably earlier when VR technology becomes advanced enough for the simulation to feel realistic. …
The few times I got the chance to be romantic with women, I really enjoyed it and never thought of going “further” or being “sexual” whatsoever. …
Then we got a reminder of just why he’s not getting affection from real, live human women:
Nowdays I just avoid women like the snakes they are! …
I am no white knight in real life, I will not protect a woman. But when VR and robogirls come, I will hold them in my arms. My robogirl will protect me outside the house and inside the house, I will cuddle and hold her. 🙂
Someday, his robotic princess will come.
“Normally women use the term creepy to merely refer to someone who is not attractive to them.”
I’m not attracted to creepy people if that’s what you mean. It is in fact the creep factor that’s a bit of a turn off. It’s not what the person looks like, it’s how he/she acts e.g. hating women for no reason but still expecting a blowjob.
@Blitzgal: And what makes girls uneasy and frightened? People doing creepy shit like slyly taking your name and address of of a check or your ID or men having a botched attempt at trying to communicate with you. These actions are unattractive to women. So not a lie.
Any man that see’s a woman deciding who to have sex with as a privilege is a friggin retard.
@BlackBloc: I have always found the “feminists are ugly” meme to be rather interesting… since most feminists don’t post their pictures up on their blog (mainly because they don’t want to get into the “feminists are ugly” rantings).
On the otherhand, from the pictures I do see, most aren’t ugly just average looking. Jill from Feministe is probably one of the better looking ones.
But there are always demotivational posters to help:
http://www.motivational-ish.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/MO-motivational-hooters-irony.jpg
http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0712/feminism-feminism-politics-demotivational-poster-1196816240.jpg
The notion of applying “feminists are ugly” but towards MRA’s just doesn’t hold much water. Men typically give a rats ass about how physically attractive we are. Women are much more susceptible to being emotionally hurt by calling them ugly. Most men except very insecure ones will shrug it off.
This is why I find it funny as hell when women go “Well men are getting fatter/uglier/more unattractive physically” It just doesn’t have the same punch as calling a woman ugly.
Ugly is to women what loser is to men.
Please vote on who’s the creepazoid. 1 or 2?
I’m going to say it’s the guy who keeps posting his picture and saying, “eat your heart out, ladies!”
Generally speaking, behavior is a better indicator of creepiness than appearance.
Men don’t care about how they look?
I beg to differ
The trends have helped bolster the estimated $579 million Canadian men’s beauty product market by almost 70 per cent between 2003 and 2008, according to market researcher Euromonitor. In the high-end domestic beauty sector alone last year, men’s skin care sales surged at three times the rate of the overall market, beauty titan L’Oreal estimates.
For the companies, the numbers tell a tale of opportunity and challenge: 61 per cent of men believe it’s important to always look their best, but just 27 per cent of them are willing to spend more to get their desired look, P&G found. To spur men into shelling out more, beauty firms count on women to be their initial recruiter. Women are responsible for about half of men’s beauty product purchases, snapping them up for their boyfriend or husband, said Marie-Josee Lamothe, a vice-president with L’Oreal in Montreal.
<a href =http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/reportlinker-adds-global-mens-grooming-products-industry-94184464.htmlThis report (which costs $40US to actually read), profiles 102 companies, and the beauty/grooming products they make for men.
Fuck… the link didn’t close.
The second one is <a href =http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/reportlinker-adds-global-mens-grooming-products-industry-94184464.html here
tab it is severely not impressive how much you post about how impressive you supposedly are
Or here
Christ on a crutch. having a case of the flu seems to be making my typing worse than usual.
“@Blitzgal: And what makes girls uneasy and frightened? People doing creepy shit like slyly taking your name and address of of a check or your ID or men having a botched attempt at trying to communicate with you. These actions are unattractive to women. So not a lie.”
It is a lie. They claim that any particular behavior is *only* deemed creepy when one is unattractive, and that a traditionally attractive man is *never* deemed creepy no matter what he does. This is untrue. The takeout guy was not physically unattractive. It was his behavior that was frightening to me. It was his behavior that was creepy and not his looks. MRAs claim that it is ONLY looks that determine “creep” factor for women. Again, this is a lie.
As an addendum for any of our resident MRAs who do not understand why the takeout guy was so egregiously wrong in how he approached me, this is how a normal, well adjusted person would have handled the situation. He would’ve taken the opportunity to strike up a conversation with me at the counter, since I was standing there for several minutes waiting for my food anyway, and if the conversation appeared to be going well and he continued to be interested in me, he would’ve asked me directly for my phone number. The way he did it is known as stalking.
“Men don’t care about how they look?”
My dad moisturizes =7 My boyfriend is obsessed with his hair lol. Granted there are a lot of men who’d rather be unshaven and lounging in football shirts rather than make the effort.
Brandon,
The image quality is bad so it’s hard to say for sure, but they generally seem to be quite good-looking to me. If one really wanted to make the statement that members of a certain group are ugly, why wouldn’t one illustrate it with a picture of actual ugly people? I guess they must be hard to find. (Or maybe my beauty standards are messed up?)
Who gives a fuck even if they are ugly? It’s like one person saying “You’re a sexist asshole” and the other replying “Yeh well you’re bad at tennis!”.
Clearly, that’s not actually a dig on feminists, Kilo. I can’t see the dude with the asshole poster’s face, but someone that big an asshat is as unattractive as they come.
blitzgal,
Really? I mean, there may be people making that claim, but usually when I’ve seen such an argument it seemed to imply that there is a set of behaviors that is creepy only for an unattractive guy, but ok for an attractive guy. That there is behavior that is creepy no matter who it is seems kind of obvious.
“Really? I mean, there may be people making that claim, but usually when I’ve seen such an argument it seemed to imply that there is a set of behaviors that is creepy only for an unattractive guy, but ok for an attractive guy. That there is behavior that is creepy no matter who it is seems kind of obvious.”
Really and truly. Similar to an earlier conversation about how “ugly” is a buzzword for some women, “creepy” is a major buzzword for these guys. They claim that women wield this word like a weapon and that it’s a privilege that women hold over men, and that once tainted with the creepy word you are never able to recover. I’m sure you could find half a dozen posts on this very blog where they talk about it.
“I’ve seen such an argument it seemed to imply that there is a set of behaviors that is creepy only for an unattractive guy, but ok for an attractive guy.”
Evidence?
Magical Laura,
you are right that it shouldn’t matter, because it’s an ad hominem fallacy. But I find it surprising that the one making that demotivator *failed* at making the fallacy. Like responding with “Well you’re bad at tennis” to someone who is good at playing tennis.
Rutee Katreya,
I’m not sure that the demotivator is not intended as a dig against feminists, given the tag line. If it was a comment about the unattractiveness of being an asshat, I think it should refer to that instead of feminism. If your point is that it is a failure at what it is intended to do, and lends itself to other interpretations, d’accord.
Whoa. Let’s review. TAB’s argument consists of two prongs:
(1) He’s more conventionally attractive than David, therefore he’s right.
(2) He’s also amazingly not shallow, yo.
I am tempted to call Poe on this one, but alas, entitlement usually proceeds from an ego that knows no bounds and self-delusion that never bottoms out.
What is this argument about looks and facial expressions, anyway? It’s irrelevant, just as the question of personal happiness, real or alleged, is irrelevant. There are people who aren’t merely attractive, but beautiful, yet lead miserable lives and feel very insecure about their looks. There are people who would be considered “ugly” or “below average” who nevertheless have enjoyable and fulfilling lives. Moreover, just because someone is unhappy, or single, or what have you, doesn’t mean that person is wrong; nor is someone right in his observations just because he is allegedly happy and in a relationship.
Anyway, TAB, the only thing I am willing to concede is that yes, you are currently conventionally attractive. But let’s not go overboard here: you don’t exactly have the kind of looks that set the world on fire, and you are not my type. Plus, there are tell-tale signs that suggest that you will age rapidly and non-too-well. For your future wife’s sake, I hope you possess enough honesty to take a realistic look in the mirror 10-15 years from now, when you feel like bitching about her less-than-ideal waistline and first wrinkles. Somehow though, I think it’s more likely you’ll declare her aging is an act of oppression against you, but you don’t have to look good because you are a man.
And none of this really matters for the subject at hand. Even if you looked like a model, TAB, you wouldn’t be personally attractive. Your views are repulsive — which is why so many people here seem to find that your face, well, repulses them.
blitzgal,
I think that they are probably right in that many men fear this word and that it stings like hell; I’m sure that a lot of people strongly police their behavior to make sure that they could not ever be perceived as creepy, perhaps to the point that it makes them creepy in itself. I guess my point was that there are some who believe that good-looking people get away with more ways of behaving than ugly ones, and that this belief – while not necessarily true – is more reasonable than the one that good-looking people get away with everything. As far as I have seen discussions, the first belief seems more frequent than the second one (and Joanna, unfortunately I do not have evidence for this claim). Maybe I tend to read more reasonable people and mentally filter the obviously stupid ones, or maybe I’m biased toward understanding ambiguous statements in ways that make more sense to me.
Joanna: Any of the threads about Skepchick and Elevatorguy.
Lots of people saying that if he’d been good-looking she’d have gone to his room and fucked him cross-eyed; before going back to her room in state of post-coital bliss.
Some of them in threads on this very site.
That’s some excellent rhetorical sleight of hand there, Brandon. Of course stalking is unattractive behaviour, but that’s not why it’s creepy.
Blitzgal already posted an excellent summary of why obtaining a woman’s address and phone number by stealth, following her home and repeatedly calling her is creepy. I’ll just quote it so you don’t have to click back:
And I shouldn’t have to add that scaring the shit out of a woman is not a very effective way of getting her to go out with you/sleep with you. If that’s what he wanted he could have, you know, talked to her. Violating someone’s boundaries like that indicates that what he really wanted to do was, gee, violate someone’s boundaries, and that’s what got him off.
re looks and photographs.
I’m a photographer. I’ve been a professional photographer since the ’90s (though I’ve not made my living at it for most of those years). There are some people who don’t photograph well at all. They may be knockout gorgeous in real life, but film somehow strips that aspect of them away.
Some others who look like crap, in the flesh, whom the camera loves. Pictures are not a good indica of attractiveness (though they can be of, “looks”).
A thousand pardons, I was indeed being facetious. Although the MS Paint arrow pointing at the sign does make it a legitimate thing to wonder.
Rutee Katreya,
I figured you were, but wasn’t sure, because I do think that you have a point. No need to apologize; as a non-native speaker, determining tone through text on the internet can be difficult. I also probably sound a bit too dry in general, don’t hold that against me please. ^^;;
David F totally looks like a Teddy