So a bunch of the regulars on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit have their collective knickers in a twist about dudes getting called “pedophiles” just for saying they think 14-year old girls are hot. Because that’s “ephebephilia,” dontchaknow, not pedophilia! And besides, thingsarebad argues
Normal heterosexual males will generally have sexual attraction for pubescent females of child-bearing age, from puberty till they start to get old and gross (late 20s, early 30s usually haha).
That’s pretty much “eww.” But so is the rest of the discussion, really, from this “joke” about all women being as immature as children to this heavily upvoted claim that feminists have created a “pedo-scare … to criminalize healthy and normal male sexuality,” to this Evo-Psych-flavored argument for lowering the age of consent.
Is it just me or are dudes who get indignant when people don’t carefully distinguish between ephebephilia and pedophilia just really really creepy?
Is “the right to lust after underage girls without having to feel icky about it” really a Men’s Rights issue? Why this preoccupation with 14-year-old girls, on r/mensrights and Reddit generally?
Can we have a citation from a blog other than False Rape Society? Of course they’re going to claim ridiculous overbloated statistics re: false rape accusations. It’s like me saying “all pigs are actually naturally blue; they just paint them pink!” and then citing a blog called They’re Lying To You About Blue Pigs as my source. It’s laughably biased, and it makes you look weak and easily influenced.
Indeed, indeed. True, true. Though to be fair, as a general rule. nobody really listens to anyone on the internet anyway.
Funny. I know plenty of “normal heterosexual males” who consider prepubescent girls as “too young” for them.
I don’t think I ever considered myself “sexy” when I was 14. I had sore lopsided breasts, spots, greasy skin, greasy hair, dandruff, braces, hairy legs etc etc. Oh wait, isn’t that the majority of 14 year old girls?
I bet TAB and NWO both invented a time-traveling watch for Pepsi (to view the effect of time travel on deliciousness), but had their idea stolen and then were fired by Steve Jobs for being far too awesome for their own good.
Thinking about it, I feel like trolls here should just have their remarks replaced with, “I KNOW YOU ARE, BUT WHAT AM I??” since it would give the same effect but take less time to read.
@ Joanna
The quotation states clearly:
“Normal heterosexual males will generally have sexual attraction for PUBESCENT females of child-bearing age”
Not:
“Normal heterosexual males will generally have sexual attraction for PREPUBESCENT females of child-bearing age”
I think the problem is in defining at what point a girl is considered a woman.
“I don’t think I ever considered myself “sexy” when I was 14. I had sore lopsided breasts, spots, greasy skin, greasy hair, dandruff, braces, hairy legs etc etc. Oh wait, isn’t that the majority of 14 year old girls?”
You make a good point here: as I don’t actually associate with or spend time with girls of this age group I think I might well be confusing my memories of what the girls in my school looked like with the reality of what fourteen year old girls would actually look like to me now.
As it happens, this topic is making me feel rather uncomfortable, I think it best if these are my last words on the matter.
“The quotation states clearly:
“Normal heterosexual males will generally have sexual attraction for PUBESCENT females of child-bearing age””
My bad. Still, I don’t think any of my male friends find kids sexually attractive, child-bearing or not. If they do, they certainly don’t complain how it’s unfair that they aren’t allowed to have sex with them.
@ Joanna
“If they do, they certainly don’t complain how it’s unfair that they aren’t allowed to have sex with them.”
Yeah, this is where it’s gets serious for me. I don’t think there would be a lot of men who would, genuinely, like to see the age of consent lowered. I’d be very suspicious of the motives of someone who would want this to happen. I think that regardless of the age when a male or female is “physically” a man or woman, you still need to have some level of protection for them: there’s no reason to think that they are “adults” as such just because they have adult bodies. The question is where to draw the line, I’d say sixteen is about right, or maybe even a little older.
Germaine Greer described the “The Beautiful Boy” as an attempt to address modern women’s apparent indifference to the teenage boy as a sexual object and to “advance women’s reclamation of their capacity for, and right to, visual pleasure”
If a man keeps his attraction for teenage girls in his mind, he is a pedophile.
If a woman (and feminist leader) talks openly of her attraction for teenage boys, writes a book about it, puts pictures of semi-nude boys in the book, she is called a visionary.
Can you guys even understand the magnitude of the double standard here?
“If a man keeps his attraction for teenage girls in his mind, he is a pedophile.
If a woman (and feminist leader) talks openly of her attraction for teenage boys, writes a book about it, puts pictures of semi-nude boys in the book, she is called a visionary.”
Eh…no… that’s just gross. I don’t even know what crevice of your arse hole you pulled that from. Ever see Notes on a Scandal? Cate Blanchett wasn’t considered a visionary in that.
@ Anthony Zarat
I haven’t read “The Beautiful Boy” but I’ve read of many news stories of women who have been convicted of having sex with under-age boys.
The stories themselves are bad enough but what I find truly disturbing is the many comments that are often left in the comments sections of the articles. Every single time there’s comments form women and MAINLY men that go something like; “it must be every teenage boy’s dream to have sex with a grown woman”, “I bet he enjoyed it”, “this is hardly a crime”, “you can’t rape man” etc. etc. I kid you not, every such news article I’ve read has many, many comments like this.
It seems as if some people (men and women) in society think that the sexual abuse of boys by women is somehow not a crime.
juandelacruz “far left feminists” was what, a term of endearment? Man-hating was an expression of tendresse
I figure anyone who thinks someone who argues with him deserves to be called a harridan, deserves to be called a fuckwit.
And again we see the, “It’s legal somewhere, so it ought to be legal here. First… I’ll bet you don’t know what the average age of consent is in the US.
I’ll be sure to explain that the next time I refuse to seel someone an electrical appliance on a Sunday (which is illegal in Bergen Cty. New Jersey), or refuse to hear a petition for legal redress because it’s not made in Norman Frence (as some petitions need to be on one of the Channel Islands).
Second, I’ll bet you don’t know the age of consent in Portugal, Germany, or Canada is. (no looking at Google and coming back to say you knew it now)
Denmark 15
Finland 16
France 15
Iceland 15
Ireland 17
Netherlands 16
New Zealand 16
Norway 16
Canada 16
Germany 14, but An exception is when the older partner is aged over 18 and is “exploiting a coercive situation”, where compensation is offered, in return for sex, in which case the younger person must be aged over 18 years. In addition, it is illegal for someone aged over 21 to have sex with someone under 16 if they “exploit the victim’s lack of capacity for sexual self-determination”.
Which is the argument for age of consent laws in general. We’ve done this dick dance once or twice. No one here is of the opinion there are not teens (even younger teens) who are capable of making a, reasonably, informed decision on when to have sex.
But they are few, and far between. Older people are able, by virtue of experience, and the social currency which comes from having an older boyfriend/girlfriend, to exploit those children who are not yet able to make that choice.
So the balancing act is to decide where the tipping point is, at what age does the greater majority of the group consist of people able to make an informed decision.
That’s the “age of consent”. Is it perfect? No. Is it the best compromise which can be made, in the interests of protecting the vulnerable? Yeah, I think so.
No, fucking people who can’t consent is not normal sexuality. I oppose every human having sex with young kids; Mary Kay LeTourneau was no more cool than your stupid ass.
You’re defending fucking young children, and misogyny besides. You earn every little bit of vitriol you get. I notice you didn’t respond to any of the substantive points, but you’re a stupid troll; I expect no better. You couldn’t even defend your stupid point based on fictional characters (And while we’re at it, the Stahn/Rutee romance was awful. Give me the Leon ending any day, erry day.)
Someone who uses gendered insults like ‘harridan’ has less than zero right to complain about insults aimed their way; insults based on class of people are never okay, you fucking asshat. Insults based solely on actions are fine; harridan is one of many words reserved to insult women, which makes it a gendered insult, and an insult based on class rather than actions.
You’re one of those idiots who thinks they’re hilarious, aren’t you?
Yes, the relationships can’t be sustained, so he makes new ones.
What you don’t know about American politics would fill the Midwest, apparently. I’ll just go ahead and inform you that BDSM and Gor aren’t the same thing, and they’re not specifically for the political left.
Actually most of society is still fine with ~40 year old men dating 20 year old women. You’re conflating 60 year old men with 40 year old women, and that’s informing this. I’m not sure if that says anything about you.
Wage, hiring, promotion gaps. % of women in positions of power vs. % of men in positions of power. % of wealth controlled by women, % of wealth controlled by men. You’re stupid, TAB.
14 is a wee young. 16 is a wee bit young, but it gets to the point where we have trouble stopping it, and it’s considered old enough to ruin your life in a car crash so I have trouble with the idea of stopping a heterosexual relationship on similar grounds.
All age of consent laws need to permit stuff between people 2 years apart.
Dude, nothing about this is natural. You’re just declaring it is to begin with.
I actually don’t want polyamory demonized, but polygamy should be anyway; that’s just a demand for a lot of people on hand to service you. And women treating men as status objects is even more demeaned than men treating women as sex objects; Gold Digger, and similar epithets, are far more common and biting than just ‘pervert’.
And on the Lusitania, they were shoved aside and they died even more disproportionately than the men.
What wa your point, again?
I’ll bet you’re one of the many stupid morons we get who doesn’t actually know what Hypergamy means, and doesn’t know what it correlates to. Protip: It doesn’t mean what MRAs think it means, and there is no evidence that it is ‘natural’.
No, stupid, we’re saying it was worse in the past. Things aren’t equal yet, and women are still disadvantaged. But you’re just a fucking moron, this is for the benefit of lurkers.
Yeah…. no.
You didn’t get some minor detail wrong. The entire basis of your argument was utterly, obviously ahistorical and anti-reality to anyone, *ANYONE*, with the most remote bit of education on history OR World Politics. If you knew about the history of pretty much any location on the planet, you’d find your statement self evidently wrong. If you knew about anywhere in Africa (The entire continent, mind), Asia (Again, the entire continent), or South America right now, or about more than a surface depth view of North America, or Europe, you’d know your statement was motherfucking stupid. So motherfucking stupid, that it is beyond the pale of stupid. It wraps around the wrong-o-meter and STILL lands on wrong. You are a fucking imbecile, and nobody should treat you with any more seriousness than a capering monkey (And yes, I hate monkeys, that’s why I’m willing to compare them to you).
No, actually, that’s simply not true in general, in a number of developed countries. For instance, Ireland and the UK have hypergamy rates so low that they’re actually better explained by random chance, and are similar to men’s. It also varies wildly by country; there’s really good evidence that it’s really not a ‘natural’ thing that is done. I suspect you’ll find it’s more common in either countries with massive income inequality, or massive gender inequality, I’m not sure which would be more relevant.
.
Not when they can’t support their claims. I at least gave you an idea of what statistics to look for.
[blockquote]It seems as if some people (men and women) in society think that the sexual abuse of boys by women is somehow not a crime.
I suspect this is more a narrative by men, a side effect of their ‘every male is sexual and wants to have sex all the time.’ This is not just an issue for young boys abused by caretakers (‘Consenting’ or not; you can’t consent if you’re under the age of consent, period). This is an issue for all male survivors. The narrative that all men want all sex, created by men, for men, and to the benefit of men, has the effect of hurting men who are raped. This isn’t news; feminists oppose this narrative. It’s not just because it hurts women, as much as it shocks you. We oppose it because it hurts men. Patriarchy has always hurt some men too. There’s a good video that relates to some of how toxic masculinity hurts men, but I just can’t remember the name offhand. Try googling it on Google videos, just toxic masculinity?
Things are bad: Let me buy you a clue.
No one here is against age dichotomous relationships. I was in one for 10 years, with a 12 year gap between she and me. She was 21, I was 33.
The important thing… she was 21, not 12.
A four year gap, and you in your late 20s. Who cares? And you are bragging about it? Wow. I’m impressed. It takes a really confident dude to be willing to brag about having a partner who is four years younger than he is.
And a really deep thinker to know that it’s all about looks, which is why cougars have such a hard time getting laid.
TAB: [blockquote]such that it’s difficult to see how an equitable relationship can be sustained with the difference in experience – it is, in short, a situation that is ripe for abuse. And that’s bad[/blockquote]
And yet Hugh Hefner continues to have his own ever-replenishing harem hehehehehe…
Hef is a classic example of how that power dynamic usually goes. Didn’t he just get jilted? How is it he can keep a harem, but not a partner?
Might be something to do with the power dynamic (not the age gap), and his having all the money, and the access to things those women want. Which leads to dependency. Which leads to a struggle for the dependent partner to assert themselves, which leads to breakup.
My grandfather got married three time (divorced, died, survived him). He liked, so it seems, women in their early twenties. So the first marriage (in the 1920s) was of someone his own age.
His next marriage (my grandmother) was someone about 15 years younger than he was.
His third marriage had about a 40 year age gap.
What there wasn’t was a power imbalance. They were, as much as the age allowed, equals.
There is no way a 14 year old can be the equal (romantic, financial, social) of someone in their 20s, much less someone in their 30/40/50s.
@ Rutee
“There’s a good video that relates to some of how toxic masculinity hurts men, but I just can’t remember the name offhand. Try googling it on Google videos, just toxic masculinity?”
I’ll take a look at that.
Whoa, that was dumb of me, wrote my post buying into stupid narratives. If 16 is old enough to risk your life in a car, it’s old enough for any sexual relationship, hetero, homo, poly, whatever.
TAB:
Only true in New Jersey. AFAIK every other jurisdiction extended the franchise to non-landowning men before granting it to women. Even New Jersey had excluded women by 1807, and continued to do so for 113 years.
TAB:
Yup, there it is, one of the three things.
TAB:
That’s weird. Normally when someone brags about that sort of thing, it’s the most recent thing they’ve accomplished in life, but you said you’re in your late 20s.
qwert:
I’m going to point out that these are the first and last lines of the same comment and leave it at that.
@ Hershele Ostropoler
“It seems as if some people (men and women) in society think that the sexual abuse of boys by women is somehow not a crime.”
Okay, replace the words “a crime” with “wrong”.
Oh, dear. What Baby NWO, I mean TAB doesn’t realize, is that he’s overwhelmingly average. And here he is trying so hard to be special.
TAB:Men are perverts for being naturally polygamous
I should like ot point out to you, my dear boy, that NWO (a true bastion of feminism, if ever there was one) would agree with that statement.
And, oddly, most MRAs are really upset if women want to have sex with more than one person, ever.
Bit of hypocrisy there no? Oh, wait… I see, the stupid use of the idea that men and women are so very different and men are, “driven” to want more than one person, by nature and women are coerced into thinking they want more than one person by those evil feminists.
Men don’t really value fertility – they value hot bodies and cute faces, which are indications of fertility and good DNA, whether you like it not.
This is not true. A hot body is a cultural artifact, and in no way reflects genetic health (and genetic health is limited to “those things which don’t kill me before I can have offspring). I have an ex who has terrible allergies. Life-threatening ones. Allergies which are likely to kill her if she gets pregnant.
Her body… hot as all get out.
TAB: Jesus Christ.. the goddam titanic (again). Lets look at the rules for siegecraft… expel the women and children from the fort. Let them starve, because the men doing the fighting matter, and the women/children don’t.
Seems a bit at odds with the idea that women/children are always coddled.
Land owners were granted the right to vote. Not male land owners. Land owners.
Um… no. The requirement to own land and vote was rescinded well before the right to vote, at all, was granted to women (in either the UK, or the US).
Susan B. Anthony (at a time when all men in the US, regardless of property [so long as they were white] were allowed to vote) was arrested and On January 24, 1873, a grand jury of twenty men returned an indictment against Anthony charging her with “knowingly, wrongfully, and unlawfully” voting for a member of Congress “without having a lawful right to vote,….the said Susan B. Anthony being then and there a person of the female sex.”for attempting to vote.
She was convicted.
Things Are Bad: Your sick hatred for men disgusts me, and I’m sorry that due to your hatred I can’t read any of the rest of your comment. Please, next time, try not to display your hatred so openly, as it honestly makes me not only sad, but sick.
So you come in, say foul things about women (and men), and then get upset when someone calls you, (such a manly man, able to get a woman four years younger than he is) a delusional misogynist?
Is it the delusional? Is that the part that got under yuor skin? Because it can’t be the misogynist. They say the truth hurts, but you revel in your misogyny so completely that I figure it must be a sign of pride to have it recognised.
Maybe it’s just that you don’t like to read the clear concepts, or face the refutations.
Having one’s cluelessness pointed out can be vary hard to take.
Crap, very hard to take.
As a stopped clock once said, Even genius is fallible.
“Men are perverts for being naturally polygamous”
Men are naturally polygamous.
Pervs are lazy for not controlling that nature.
Yes, many (but not all, obviously) women find me enormously attractive, especially when considering my intelligence, sense of humor, and charm.
Wow, TAB. Only you can prevent narcissism.