So a bunch of the regulars on Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit have their collective knickers in a twist about dudes getting called “pedophiles” just for saying they think 14-year old girls are hot. Because that’s “ephebephilia,” dontchaknow, not pedophilia! And besides, thingsarebad argues
Normal heterosexual males will generally have sexual attraction for pubescent females of child-bearing age, from puberty till they start to get old and gross (late 20s, early 30s usually haha).
That’s pretty much “eww.” But so is the rest of the discussion, really, from this “joke” about all women being as immature as children to this heavily upvoted claim that feminists have created a “pedo-scare … to criminalize healthy and normal male sexuality,” to this Evo-Psych-flavored argument for lowering the age of consent.
Is it just me or are dudes who get indignant when people don’t carefully distinguish between ephebephilia and pedophilia just really really creepy?
Is “the right to lust after underage girls without having to feel icky about it” really a Men’s Rights issue? Why this preoccupation with 14-year-old girls, on r/mensrights and Reddit generally?
My God, Christina Hendricks isn’t even my type, normally, but I can’t watch Mad Men without wanting to feel her up. It’s not even the curves themselves it’s.. the presentation… It’s like a fruit bowl… A beautiful, vintage fruit bowl…
I’ve been reading these guys long enough to know it comes down to “she won’t know I’m awful in bed or I believe my penis is small and she won’t know”.
ding ding ding!
Ah, Rutee, fail to notice I qualified Feminist Misandry with “Far-Left”. Not all feminists are far-left, are they now? Anyway, your argument seems to boil down to it’s okay to have man-haters in the WRM, because there are woman-haters in the MRM i.e. it’s okay for me to be a hater black because you’re a hater too. Is that what you’re saying? And your second argument contradicts the reality of what is happening now in North America and Europe. Why else would a global MRM have even emerged the first place? But of course, you would not realize it, since you are not a male after all, and thus are immune to being the victim of institutionalized misandry, so it would be undetectible to you.
BTW, is your logname from the PSX J-RPG Tales of Destiny? Heh, if so, then you should realize that Rutee in that game was herself a teenager who is in a relationship with an older guy too, dontcha know.
@Holly Pervocracy
“Whereas a lot of the purported “ephebephilia” seems to be guys with perfectly normal sex drives who simply prefer someone who won’t hold them to the same standards as an adult woman. They want a post-pubescent body–because their innate desires are not for anything unusual–but not an adult mind”
Whoa Holly, might I suggest you lay off the intersectional power dynamic control wheel for a while. You are losing it.
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I can’t imagine any man not wanting to listen to this kinda stuff.
“The fear of an adult mind isn’t a fetish. It’s just laziness, cowardice, and selfishness. It’s not the desire for someone “sexier,” it’s the desire for someone who hasn’t learned to stand up for herself.”
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“Motivated (on the 14-year-old’s side) by something other than attraction or affection.”
Not like the loyal, pure love western women offer.
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“There’s probably some slut-shaming in here too–an older woman is more likely to have been with other guys, and that’s…
…I’m not sure why that’s a problem, actually. But it seems to be.”
Maybe the fact she’s proven she has a loyalty factor of 0%.
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@Spearhafoc
“Yeah! Those old hags at 36, 39 and god forbid, 44, are truly disgusting!”
Now let 150 million men battle over those 3 women.
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@Kave
“I’ve been reading these guys long enough to know it comes down to “she won’t know I’m awful in bed or I believe my penis is small and she won’t know.”
Why are men always so inadequate in bed, why can’t they be perfect like you know who.
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@hellkell
“Plus a god complex–they want to be adored by someone who doesn’t know better.
She’ll grow up and all, but they don’t think that far ahead.”
And when she does grow up hopefully she’ll treat him like shit, which is more than men deserve. Imagine! A man wanting to be adored by a woman! The nerve!
You know, there’s no better way to bury the actual problems facing men in society (lack of support for primary-caregiver fathers; incredibly restrictive social roles; increased risk of violence) than to position “we aren’t allowed to fuck high school freshmen” as a major injustice.
Big favor you’re doing the guys with real problems, there.
I don’t even know what that means. Explain, please?
NWO, is there anything you like?
I don’t even mean politically or in gender terms. I mean is there anything that’s ever made you happy?
Do you ever go fishing or jogging or do you have a favorite TV show or a favorite place to hang out or anything?
He likes Star Wars novels and A Song of Ice and Fire. That’s all I’ve been able to figure out.
NWO – Especially as I’m an anarchist, I’m willing to talk about where age of consent laws should be, and, for that matter if they should be. But that doesn’t mean I ever have to think such age dissonant relationships are in any way a good. And people who start rhapsodizing on the wonders of a 40 something man nailing a blushing 14 year old are NOT helping my open mind when it comes to the “lesser evil” of lower age of consent laws.
Women over the age of 25: So old and gross, but men over the age of 25? Why, they’re just more virile and sexy! I doubt every MRA is in their early twenties, so there has to be some kind of odd doublethink happening here every time they claim a woman aged 25+ is repulsive.
(For the record, I don’t think either sex becomes gross once they age past 25.)
Whoa Holly, might I suggest you lay off the intersectional power dynamic control wheel for a while. You are losing it.
Willfully ignorant people always seem to think that “big words” they don’t know are funny.
I can’t imagine any man not wanting to listen to this kinda stuff.
…I’m not exactly making pillow talk here. I’m sorry if not everything I say is charmingly seductive. I promise you I don’t talk like this all the time.
Maybe the fact she’s proven she has a loyalty factor of 0%.
Because she didn’t stay forever with the first person she slept with? Maybe he dumped her. Maybe she dumped him for a really good reason. Maybe they knew from the get-go it was a short-term thing. Maybe they both just moved on with their lives.
…Do you pass this kind of judgement on a man who’s had more than one partner in his life? Why is that different?
Now let 150 million men battle over those 3 women.
Right, because those are the only 3 attractive women over 15 in the world. Look, I’m sorry we couldn’t post 150 million image links, but there are time constraints here.
Not like the loyal, pure love western women offer.
Okay. Story time. As you know, my area was just hit by a major storm. Unfortunately, my boyfriend was on the other side of the state–in a remote area and one very heavily hit by the storm, and we were out of contact from yesterday afternoon until late this afternoon.
I was worried sick. I was afraid right down in my soul that he might be hurt, he might be lost, even that he might be frightened. If I heard that he was injured, I would have put everything aside to be with him; if I hadn’t heard from him, I would be out there right now instead of sleeping tonight.
And it’s not because he’s my meal ticket or because he strokes my ego or whateverthefuck. It’s because that’s love. That’s what it feels like to care about someone. It’s caring about their well-being and their feelings just because they’re that important to you, because in a way they’ve become a part of you. I don’t expect you to sympathize but I just want you to know that it exists.
I’m reproducing this post in full to point out that the age of consent has completely disappeared from Juan’s argument.
“Ah, Rutee, fail to notice I qualified Feminist Misandry with “Far-Left”. Not all feminists are far-left, are they now?”
It’s still stupid. Far left feminists are not misandristic any more than the rest, on average. You’re not even trying to be correct.
“Anyway, your argument seems to boil down to it’s okay to have man-haters in the WRM, because there are woman-haters in the MRM ”
Okay, you can’t even read. Not only did I not say it was okay, but I consider the important point against any claim that feminists perpetuate misandry to be that feminists do not possess the political power to enact anti-male legislation. We can not institutionalize misandry, as misogyny has been. That’s not to say it would be okay to do if we were capable. That’s to say we can’t. If it were within our power to do so, it would still be wrong. But it’s not, so the entire discussion is academic. We can not place structural biases against men.
“And your second argument contradicts the reality of what is happening now in North America and Europe. ”
No. No it isn’t. Check out hiring, wage, and promotion gaps in employment. Check out the difference in men in power and women in power, politically. Men are advantaged in each of those categories, broadly. Specifically, women can only hope to have minor advantages in obtaining positions related to childcare, or nursing, or other stereotypically feminine roles, and they can’t really expect to be in charge.
“Why else would a global MRM have even emerged the first place?”
Entitled, reality-denying idiots like yourself. Not to mention that while men are the social majority (As in, men are the group with social power), you idiots don’t; you squander the attention you get on non-issues the majority considers you vile for, like well, opposition to age of consent laws. I’d be worried about you guys removing what few gains women have gotten if you weren’t fucking morons, but you are. I really just have to worry about the same asshats that’d strip it from me for gayness, or any of a number of other *ACTUAL* axes of discrimination. Because men? They suffer in only the barest ways for their gender, and they benefit far more.
“But of course, you would not realize it, since you are not a male after all, and thus are immune to being the victim of institutionalized misandry, so it would be undetectible to you. ”
No, I can fucking study statistics. I’m far better aware than you who suffers from institutional biases; if you are white, straight, cis-sexual, and able bodied in addition to male, you’re pretty much done; you’re not suffering institutional bias in almost anything unless you’re poor. And women are more likely to be poor. You view the beginning of the end of your loss of primacy as though it were actual institutional bias, but that doesn’t make it so.
“BTW, is your logname from the PSX J-RPG Tales of Destiny? Heh, if so, then you should realize that Rutee in that game was herself a teenager who is in a relationship with an older guy too, dontcha know.”
She was 18, past the age of consent. And Stahn was 19, so it wasn’t exactly a creepy age divide. You’re really fucking stupid, aren’t you?
“Not like the loyal, pure love western women offer.”
…a 14 year old from Europe isn’t a “Western woman” (or girl)? Oh, right, the “Western world” apparently consists of the US, Canada, and the UK, according to quite a few MRAs.
“Maybe the fact she’s proven she has a loyalty factor of 0%.”
A loyal woman stays with ONE MAN for her whole life? So if he dumps her and moves on with his life, she’s disloyal if she finds a new partner?
“Now let 150 million men battle over those 3 women.”
Name one woman or girl who 150 men battled over (and don’t say something like “Helen of Troy”; that’s not a real person).
“Why are men always so inadequate in bed, why can’t they be perfect like you know who.”
No one called themself perfect. As far as I can tell, she wasn’t complaining about men who are bad in bed (which is subjective anyway), or have small penises, she was talking about men who are insecure about their bedroom skills or penis size, and try to deal with that by wanting to be with underage girls because they think those girls are less likely to mind (probably mistakenly, I certainly remember hearing about penis sizes in high school).
“And when she does grow up hopefully she’ll treat him like shit, which is more than men deserve. Imagine! A man wanting to be adored by a woman! The nerve!”
There is quite a bit of middle ground between being treated like shit and being worshiped like a god. It is possible to respect someone and treat them well without putting them on a pedestal and worshiping them.
I’m younger than my girlfriend. I mean, same generation and all (depending on where you draw the lines), but when she was 14 I wasn’t old enough to have a sex drive. So, um, am I broken, or are these people?
It seems to me the MRAs expressing inordinate and creepy indignation that they can’t have sex with fourteen year-olds are just expressing the flip side of their inability to deal with mature women. The latter, they vilify, while the former become the targets of idealization. Because we all know how loyal and steadfast fourteen year-old girls are, right? This nonsense is in their heads and nowhere else, and it is why the MRM as we currently see it is going nowhere slowly.
Also, a tip to all the fine people who post here:
You can use [blockquote]s to separate quoted text from your own comment
Just replace the brackets in [blockquote] with and at the end of the quoted text, close the tag with [/blockquote] (remembering to use ).
Unless of course the html tags have changed since the last time I used them here, in which case this comment will be an incomprehensible and somewhat embarrassing mess.
Hm. Apparently > and < don't show up.
See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockquote_element
It’s clearly a largely MRM phenomena, this hatred/disgust of grown women. I’ve talked to several guys in the 19-23 range who didn’t remotely think women were “old” until at least 40. Which makes sense for that age range, really. I’m sure their range will expand as they get older themselves.
One of the good things about getting older is that I am less and less attractive to these douches.
As a teacher, these are basically my students we are talking about. And sure, some of them are ‘developed,’ hell, some of my 5th graders are ‘developed,’ but that doesn’t make them any less children and apologies to teenagers, I don’t mean to say you are universally immature, but there is a large gap in life experience, even between me and my students and I’m the youngest teacher here at 26 years old. And that gap is a very significant thing. Not to mention the social power/pressure an older person could bring to bear on a minor of that age. NOT COOL. Not even remotely, and it doesn’t make it one goddamn iota better just because the 14 year old in question has boobs. I mean, DAMN. I think I would legitimately kill someone who took advantage of one of my students like that. Male OR Female.
Honestly, people who make bullshit arguments like this must never have actually spent any time around this age group. And if you have, and still make the ephebophile argument? Well, You Are a Bad Person, and You Should Feel Bad.
@Hershele
Yes, but how old were you when you began your relationship? I assume it’s not “too young to have a sex drive” The issue is not purely the age gap, the issue is the actual age itself. I have no problem with a 25 year old and a 35 year old being together, but a 15 year old and a 25 year old? Fuck no.
Edit: Cactuar, reposting after logging into wordpress.
OMGWTF, seriously? This is what these dudez call activism? Sweet blessed gods, no wonder the rest of the world thinks the Men’s Right’s Movement is cuckoo for cocoa puffs!
Ozy: I’m already a withered old hag by MRA standards (33 yo). Somehow, this doesn’t upset me all that much.
Plus, I’m fat, which makes me unfuckable even if I weren’t an ancient crone.
Several comments (by JUANDELACRUZ and Meh) got caught by the spam filter; they’re up now.
Oh, and by catuar.
“Normal heterosexual males will generally have sexual attraction for pubescent females of child-bearing age, from puberty till they start to get old and gross (late 20s, early 30s usually haha).”
Thank you for quoting me, good sir!