The inhabitants of Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit seem to have developed a sudden crush on the authoritarian Chinese government. Why? Well, it seems that the lovable tyrants have decided to crack down on evil golddigger bitches. According to an article in The Telegraph, linked to in the subreddit,
In a bid to temper the rising expectations of Chinese women, China’s Supreme Court has now ruled that from now on, the person who buys the family home, or the parents who advance them the money, will get to keep it after divorce.
“Hopefully this will help educate younger people, especially younger women, to be more independent, and to think of marriage in the right way rather than worshipping money so much,” said Hu Jiachu, a lawyer in Hunan province.
The ruling should also help relieve some of the burden on young Chinese men, many of whom fret about the difficulty of buying even a small apartment.
Never mind that the lopsided demographics in China today — where young men greatly outnumber young women, making it harder for young men to find wives — are not the result of excess feminism, but the result of a toxic mixture of cultural misogyny and the authoritarian regime’s “one child” program. As William Saletan explains the logic in Slate:
Girls are culturally and economically devalued; the government uses powerful financial levers to prevent you from having another child; therefore, to make sure you can have a boy, you abort the girl you’re carrying.
The result? 16 million “missing girls” in China. Ironically, the skewed ratio of men to women gives young women considerable leverage in chosing whom to marry – and that’s what the Men’s Rightser’s seem to see as the real injustice here.
As Evil Pundit wrote, evidently speaking for many (given the numerous upvotes he got):
Wow. I’ve always disliked the authoritarian Chinese government, but for once, it’s done something good.
I may need to reconsider my attitude.
IncrediblyFatMan added:
China wants to become the next superpower and world leader. They aren’t going to do it by allowing the kinds of social decay that rot away at the competing nations.
Revorob joked:
If they brought that in over here, most women in Australia would be living on the street.
“Or,” Fondueguy quipped in response, “they could learn to work.”
At the moment, all the comments in the thread praising the Chinese government for this move (and there are many more) have net upvotes; the only comment in the negative? One suggesting that the Telegraph isn’t exactly a reliable source.
Speaking of which, here’s a more balanced look at the issue on China.org.cn that examines some of the consequences of the new ruling for Chinese women.
Let’s look at some of those. According to one Beijing lawyer quoted in the piece:
“[H]ousewives, especially those in the rural areas who have no job and are responsible for taking care of their families, will be affected most by this new change,” she said. “If their husbands want a divorce, they are likely to be kicked out of the house with nothing.”
Luo Huilan, a professor of women’s studies at China Women’s University in Beijing, agreed.
In rural areas, she said, men have the final say in family matters. All essential family assets, such as home, car and bank deposits, are registered in the men’s names, and women fill the roles of only wife, mother and farmworker.
“Their labor, though substantial, hardly gets recognition. Without a good education, they have to rely heavily on their husbands,” Luo said. “In case of divorce, a woman is driven out of her husband’s life, home and family, and finds herself an alien even in her parents’ home. No wonder the new interpretation of the Marriage Law has aroused concern among women.”
And no wonder it’s drawn cheers on the Men’s Rights subreddit.
Girls that I have hooked up with, I don’t feel that it is any of their business what I do.
Well, like everyone should, I hope you have conversations about STIs and use protection!
@Comrade: Condoms every time!
no you goon, the parade of horribles that person after person has told you didnt happen in their weding and marriage while you come up with new excuses for why you know more about marriage than people who have been married
are you even paying attention anymore or are you just objecting for the sake of objecting
My point is, you’re wrong. Married couples have more sex than single people.
Period.
I just surveyed a poly person, she doesn’t have more sex than a married person.
So, you’re wrong again.
Studies show you’re wrong, anecdotes say you’re wrong….
Just admit you’re wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
😀
Hyu keep schayink dat vord, hy don’t tink it means vhat hyu beleeve eet meens.
“Are you implying my girlfriend is cheap because she doesn’t want a to get married? I almost feel like I should be defending her honor based on that comment…but this is the Internet, so it’s kind of pointless. But I do take offense to your implications of no marriage = cheap.”
No, actually, if it came off that way I do sincerely apologize. I meant precisely what I said; she probably doesn’t have big dreams of an expensive marriage if she’s okay with you not marrying her. That’s fine. I don’t have dreams of an expensive marriage, as such, either. I don’t think that makes anyone cheap, and for that matter I don’t think it makes them anything else either. Wanting a big to do for a marriage means, to me, you want a big to do for a marriage.
“@Sharculese: What fantasy version of marriage? People are waiting longer to marry, less people are getting married and divorce rates are about 50-50. What part of that is fantasy?”
The parts where that means that 50% of extant married couples *right now* will get divorced, the part where you claim marriage is dying (Losing primacy, mercifully, but hardly dying)….
“With fewer people getting married year after year, what would you say is the main cause of that?”
Considering how much of that decline comes in very recent years… I’m going to just hazard a guess and say “crushing economic depression”
““Expensive” is relative. A millionaire spending 10 grand on a wedding could be seen as cheap. While someone working as a manager at McDonalds making 30K a year is spending excessively at 10 grand.”
Uh, okay, but you can have one for 0 dollars if you’re sufficiently poor, and less than 200 otherwise. I don’t give a fuck what you consider expensive; it’s not necessary unless 200 dollars is expensive and you’re unfortunately not poor enough to qualify for indigent services. You don’t have to have a big to do. Only your family can exert any pressure to the contrary.
@Sharcules: You do realize that this site has a particular demographic that is attracted to it. Thus from a statistical perspective, one can only say that the people HERE have not had an expensive marriage/wedding. This says nothing of the general population. So while you might be correct within this particular sub-culture (gender studies, feminism). Most men and women do not label themselves as feminists or visit these kinds of websites. So the commenters here are a relatively small sample size compared to the rest of the planet.
You haven’t even answered my question. Which was what do you think the reasons why there is a decline in marriage?
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-11-18/fewer-getting-married-as-people-say-it-s-obsolete.html
Marriage rates declined 22 percent from 1960’s and 68% of people in their twenties were married compared to 26% in 2010.
It seems my hypothesis is far more accurate and logical. Marriage is dying.
@Cynickal: You quoted one study and questioned one woman….that doesn’t really seem conclusive. At least marriage rates can be counted because there is paperwork that can be checked…people can lie when asked questions like “how many times are you having sex with your partner every week?”.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Jan09/surveys.lying.mw.html
Summary: People lie on surveys because it boosts their ego and makes them feel good.
This is why you look at people’s behavior and not what they say.
So you’re emotionally blackmailing her. That’s. Just. Swell.
So when a survey agrees with you it’s well done, but when they disagree with you all the methodologies and standards used to eliminate bias are wrong.
Got it.
I’ll be publishing this in Psychology Today. I’m sure it’ll pass peer review.
http://tinyurl.com/ckbytm
Brandon, the solution is simple: marry a feminist woman, who wants to work outside the home, have a low-key and inexpensive wedding, have an open and honest marriage, share responsibilities (for breadwinning and housework and childcare) equally, etc. I’m not saying all feminists would fit that bill, but some certainly would, and you only need to find one woman who is all of these things.
Brandon: The cost of getting married is that of the license, and the fee to the officiant.
That’s it. Everything else is optional.
People choose to spend that money, the same way you choose to not get married.
You know not having a big ceremony and duplicating all the things that happen when one gets married don’t have in common?
One can be done, and the other can’t.
re your sexual morals. I presume you only have non-condom sex with women whom you have told about your most recent partners, and shown the results of your most recent STD panels. I presume, you inform them of any risky behaviors you have engaged in (sex with someone who is HSV positve, etc.).
So lets wrap this up shall we:
Committed relationship = monogamy = cheating is bad
No. Cheating is bad. Cheating is violating the terms of one’s relationship with one’s partner. Implied terms may apply (see above about informed consent to risky behaviors).
There are a lot of poly-people on this board (e.g. me, Ozy, Holly, Molly). We have sex with more than one person. All the people involved know we do this. What levels of disclosure about whom/when is between us and our partners. If we break those rules, we are cheating.
I’ll be publishing this in Psychology Today. I’m sure it’ll pass peer review.
http://tinyurl.com/ckbytm
Dude, no. It’s not cool to do this shit.
“It seems my hypothesis is far more accurate and logical. Marriage is dying. ”
Your conclusion doesn’t really follow the evidence. The logical conclusion to your evidence, if completely accurate, is that people are getting married later. It doesn’t follow from that that marriage is dying. It’s losing primacy, mercifully, but… dying is you trying to give yourself a feel good by saying it’s true.
I support buying gold for one reason and it has nothing to do with Glenn Beck. Gold is maintaining it’s purchasing power while the US dollar is becoming worthless. Why would I hold on to ever increasingly worthless money when I can prevent my savings from going down the drain?
Protip: No, the dollar is not becoming worthless. Inflation is stable and historically low. The dollar may be dropping relative to the yuan, but that’s been coming for 30 years (more like 750, if you take the long view). Similarly, the dollar may be dropping relative to oil, but there’s massive fluctuation in that. The dollar is weakening in certain respects, but it is NOT becoming worthless.
Seriously, the number of people who believe this continues to stagger me. Do you buy bread? Did you buy your last loaf with a single, small-number bill, roughly the same as the amount you spent last time? Welcome to a stable currency.
@Voip: How is that even remotely “emotional blackmail”? You seem to have a problem with selective reading. Did you not read the rest of that paragraph? Well here it is:
“Life is short, I am not going to stay in a relationship that I don’t want to be in or doesn’t fit my lifestyle. It is better for me and it is better for her. I can go find a woman that wants to work and she can find a guy that doesn’t mind or likes the idea of her staying at home. Why settle for a win-lose when you can get a win-win?”
What is the alternative when we have a disagreement? Do I just not express myself, agree with her and live a life I don’t want to live? That would make me miserable and her as well. How is that even remotely healthy for either of us?
@Cynickal: Asking one woman her opinion does not make a survey. The link I provided was an article mentioning data from the recent US Census…as in ALL Americans which equals huge amounts of data…not just one person. Also that link about married couples having more sex for some reason isn’t working…I tried it in IE, Firefox and Chrome and everything loads but the video.
@Comrade: Marry a feminist? What do I look like as sadomasochist? I fight the world enough as it is, I don’t want to go home and and fight about gender relations. I want to make my self some dinner and relax a bit before I get up and do it all over again.
@Pecunium: Everything is optional…including actually getting married. I spend time with my GF, we look after each other, help each other, try and accomplish our goals together…I just can’t see how marriage can make that arrangement any better. Why spoil a good thing? If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it! And I think over time, more and more people (mostly men) will come to the same conclusion I have.
I always use condoms…there isn’t a time where I don’t. Last thing I want is a STD. My past partners are none of anyone’s business. I am sure if I was asking a woman about her past lovers as a way to judge her, I would be seen as some misogynist. So I expect the same back from women. Fair is fair.
Yes, cheating is bad when you are in a committed relationship…this is exactly what this means: Committed relationship = monogamy = cheating is bad.
I tell women my lifestyle and if they are uncomfortable with it, they do not have to continue spending time with me.
@Rutee: Straight from the Census:
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2011/tables/11s0129.pdf
Right were it says “Rate per 1000 population”. In 1990, 9.8 per 1000 married. Now in 2008 it is 5.4 per thousand. So in 18 years the total amount of marriages in the US dropped roughly 45%.
I bet it won’t even take another 18 years for it to drop another 45%. 18 years isn’t that long…in fact, I doubt if you have any children younger than 5, their generation will only remember marriage as “something from my grandparents and parents time”.
@Erl: Inflation happens when the money supply is increased. Which is exactly what Bernanke and Congress did with QE1 and QE2.
Prices haven’t increased? Are you kidding me? Just look at the CPI and you can see month after month increases in food, medical costs, clothing, transportation, etc…
The Yuan? The dollar is sinking amongst practically every currency trading. Gold and other precious metals are increasing in price compared to the dollar.
http://www.google.com//finance?chdnp=0&chdd=0&chds=0&chdv=1&chvs=Linear&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1314577742399&chddm=2744769&cmpto=CURRENCY:USDGBP;CURRENCY:USDJPY;CURRENCY:USDCHF;CURRENCY:USDAUD;CURRENCY:USDCAD;CURRENCY:USDINR&cmptdms=0;0;0;0;0;0&q=CURRENCY:USDEUR&ntsp=0
Weakening just equals “on it’s way to become worthless”. The government might stabilize the dollar. But even still, what percentage of worth and value has to be given away for it to stabilize? 20%? 50%?
Food is rising due to natural disasters, transport due to rising fuel costs, clothing due to fuel and labor, and medical costs due to fucked up health policy. None of that is inflation.
@Orion: Yes, those also contribute to rising costs. But no matter how you look at it, when you increase the supply of money (which IS what the government did), then inflation will happen unless they decrease the amount of money in circulation.
The government basically printed up billions of new dollars and sent them out into the world. This by the law of supply and demand makes each one of our dollars worth less than before. Hence inflation.
If your dollar goes down, that’s good for exporters, isn’t it? Or am I an idiot? I know nothing about economics.
“I always use condoms…there isn’t a time where I don’t. Last thing I want is a STD. My past partners are none of anyone’s business. I am sure if I was asking a woman about her past lovers as a way to judge her, I would be seen as some misogynist. So I expect the same back from women. Fair is fair.”
I’m a bit confused now. You say you are poly, but then you use the word “past”. Have you had several partners in the past and now only have your girlfriend? Because that’s not poly, that’s just being well-rounded. 😛
And asking someone about whether or not they have an STD, if they will get tested, etc., isn’t “judging” someone. Unless you think having an STD is shameful?
“Yes, cheating is bad when you are in a committed relationship…this is exactly what this means: Committed relationship = monogamy = cheating is bad.”
The thing is, being poly–as opposed to being “open” or even an “ethical slut”–usually does mean some level of commitment to more than one person at a time. This usually involves some degree of negotiation between everyone involved, so that no one’s feelings get hurt, no one feels like they’re being neglected for the other partner(s), etc. It sounds like you’re just doing the sex part, in which you have an open, not poly, relationship.
Sigh… has any partner you’ve ever been with had HSV II? Condoms are not proof against contagion, and lack of outbreak isn’t proof of non-carrier status.
It’s not judging to ask about risky behaviors. That’s fine. When I have a new partner I ask for a test. I get a test. If someone is HSV/HPV/HIV positive it’s only ethical to share so that one’s partner may make informed decisions.
I commend “The Ethical Slut” since you seem unclear on this.
Committed relationship = monogamy
Bzzzt. Incorrect. Violating the agreed parameters of a relationship is cheating. Poly doesn’t mean non-monagamous. Poly means that one has more than one, ongoing, partner. Responsible poly means all the partners know of each other.
It doesn’t require that they like one another.
And… if being involved with a feminist = masochism to you, well we have evidence that you are, in fact, not clear on the concept. It’s borderline for misogyny, as the idea that the ideals of feminism = cruelty to men isn’t anything like true.
Care to expound.
Sorry, I was distracted.
Poly is a committed relationship. It just isn’t monogamous.
How stupid are you? This is the same idiocy that leads you to say Marriage is dying because i’ts losing primacy. No, you fucking moron, not having the same strength is not the same as becoming worthless. For fuck’s sake, do you think every currency besides the dollar is worthless?
Yes, I’m sure that rate will continue completely unabated and at the same ratio. Good christ.
(takes cane out of closet, pops in dentures).
I bet it won’t even take another 18 years for it to drop another 45%. 18 years isn’t that long…in fact, I doubt if you have any children younger than 5, their generation will only remember marriage as “something from my grandparents and parents time
I remember hearing this shit in the 70s, when laws against domestic co-habitation were being passed. All those “kids” would move in together, they’d skip on getting married, and the family would die out.
Almost 40 years on, and marriage is still going to die out, any day now, never mind that the stats say something like 80 percent of people will end up married, at some point, before they die.
@Magpie: If the dollar goes down, that is good for exports and visits to the US since our dollar will be “cheaper” than other countries. While this does incentivize people from other countries to visit the US, convert their Euro/Yen/Franc into dollars and spend…it can’t really be sustained in the long run. It is much better for the country if we have a trade deficit is small.
@Molly: Right now, I only have one girlfriend. In the past, I have had multiple sex partners at the same time.
I do inform the people I sleep with that I often times have multiple sex partners. I have had a few women walk out after I have told them, but that is OK. The women that don’t mind it, stay. I also place no restrictions on her having multiple partners as well…maybe restrict is too harsh. I just don’t care if she is sleeping with other people besides me.
@Pecunium: I will start informing of my STD past, when women start telling me, without asking, if they have any STD’s. You know how often that happens since I was a teenager? Once…and she mentioned it after sex.
Also, it is judging since her answer will determine if you sleep with her, don’t sleep with her or choose not to go without protection. So while you are acting in your own best interests, you are still judging her.
“Violating the agreed parameters of a relationship is cheating”. Yes, but those agreed parameters are often implied when starting a committed relationship. I know few people that start a committed relationship, then have a talk about sleeping with multiple partners. The women I know and have slept with, the majority of them automatically imply that if you are in a committed relationship, you are only sleeping with that person.
Yes, exceptions do exist. There are swingers, polygamy, open marriages, etc… But the de facto standard in the US is committed relationship = you are committed to your partner which means no having sex with other people.
In response to your last post, marriage has lost roughly 40-50% since the 1960’s and 70’s. While that might not be a lot for one human (since we don’t live that long), it isn’t to human history. Marriage has been around for a thousand+ years. So having it lose that much in 30-40 years is a pretty big deal.
While I do agree with parts of feminism: equal pay for equal work, women should have the right to vote, women should choose who they marry and not have it forced on them, While I am personally pro-life (in the sense that I think the abortion procedure if fucking disgusting)…I don’t really think that it is my business to make those decisions….it is her body and she can do what she wants with it.
But feminist women often rub me the wrong way. I usually can’t stand having a discussion with them for very long and I certainly can’t imagine myself in a relationship or god forbid married to one. When a woman see’s me as her oppressor…it kind of ruins it for me.
Ya…ya…ya feminist women are not a monolith and all that happy horseshit. Well, I haven’t come across many that didn’t completely toe the feminist line. When I have had disagreements with feminists, they pretty much conform completely and say the exact same shit.
Besides the insults, this little comic typically shows how my friends and I conversations go down with feminists:
http://oi54.tinypic.com/fa6bdf.jpg
If I don’t blindly agree with everything that comes out of her mouth, I am labeled as some sexist, misogynist, oppressive man. Which is funny since all I want in life is to make some money, save a little and have fun traveling and seeing new places. It takes far to much energy to order people around and I don’t have the time or the patience to act as someones slave master.
The fact that you wrote that it is “borderline misogyny” is another prime example of why I don’t really care for feminists. Feminists tend to see EVERYTHING as a form of misogyny. I don’t think it is misogynistic to say I don’t like dating feminists. That doesn’t mean I hate women. That means I don’t like dating feminists. Everyone is free to have their preferences. Some white girls only date black men…I don’t call them racists for it.
@Rutee: Did you even look at the chart I linked to? Also, if the govt and the Fed keep printing more money, it makes the dollar worth less and less…see Zimbabwe for an example. Do you need any 100 trillion dollar notes?
I think the Euro is ok, the same for the Yen. I tend to always have faith in the Swiss Franc. For the most part, it just seems like the dollar is losing value.
Also, do you have any evidence to back up your statements or are you just going to give me weak platitudes like “dollar not #1 doesn’t mean it is worthless” (which I never said). I don’t really care if the dollar is number 1 or not…I just want the dollar to retain its purchasing power. And if you look at the chart I posted…it isn’t. Thus keeping extra dollars around = me losing money. Right now, my bills get paid and all my investment money goes to anything else besides the dollar. Euro’s, Yen, Gold, Franc, etc… Why? Because right now, the dollar is sinking.
“Yes, exceptions do exist. There are swingers, polygamy, open marriages, etc… But the de facto standard in the US is committed relationship = you are committed to your partner which means no having sex with other people.”
So we just don’t count, basically?
This whole convo has been like “I don’t do these things, because that would be like marriage, and marriage is terrible!”
We say, “Look! There are other kinds of relationships!”
Brandon: “You don’t count! I am still going to live exactly how I am, because my life is one big marriage protest!”
XD
“@Pecunium: I will start informing of my STD past, when women start telling me, without asking, if they have any STD’s. You know how often that happens since I was a teenager? Once…and she mentioned it after sex.”
This is just like… wow. “ONE WOMAN didn’t tell me she had an STD til after sex, so I am never discussing STDs with ANY of my partners EVER AGAIN!”
Dude, STDs can still get you despite your wounded pride. The actual way to be safe is to ask EVEN IF IT’S AWKWARD!
@Molly: When did I ever say “you don’t count”. Most relationships in the US tend to be monogamous. That doesn’t mean you don’t count or that you are not important…just that the type of relationship you are in is in the minority.
It is just like the conversation earlier, sure you can get married for less than 100 bucks, but the majority of people do not do that. They choose to get married and have a big wedding to go along with it. The examples people are bringing up are in the minority not what the majority of Americans actually do.
My relationship right now is similar to marriage. I am only sleeping with one woman, we help each other out, we try and get our goals accomplished and so on and so on…I just don’t have the state “condoning” it. I also won’t be forced to pay alimony any other spousal support. I won’t have half of my assets taken away either. So if the relationship ends…I go on my merry way. And I see nothing immoral or unethical about that position.
My pride really isn’t hurt at all. I just think that people (men and women) would lie if someone just bluntly came out and said “Do you have any STD’s?”.
And to be fair, I can’t possibly think asking a woman right before sex if she has any STD’s would go over very well. All I can see happening is her screaming “What…you don’t trust me?”…and out the door she goes.
Who says I have to ask? In what rulebook does it say “You must ask someone you plan on sleeping with if they have any STD’s”.