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Dudes’ Republic of China

The inhabitants of Reddit’s Men’s Rights subreddit seem to have developed a sudden crush on the authoritarian Chinese government. Why? Well, it seems that the lovable tyrants have decided to crack down on evil golddigger bitches. According to an article in The Telegraph, linked to in the subreddit,

In a bid to temper the rising expectations of Chinese women, China’s Supreme Court has now ruled that from now on, the person who buys the family home, or the parents who advance them the money, will get to keep it after divorce.

“Hopefully this will help educate younger people, especially younger women, to be more independent, and to think of marriage in the right way rather than worshipping money so much,” said Hu Jiachu, a lawyer in Hunan province.

The ruling should also help relieve some of the burden on young Chinese men, many of whom fret about the difficulty of buying even a small apartment.

Never mind that the lopsided demographics in China today — where young men greatly outnumber young women, making it harder for young men to find wives  — are not the result of excess feminism, but the result of a toxic mixture of cultural misogyny and the authoritarian regime’s “one child” program. As William Saletan explains the logic in Slate:

Girls are culturally and economically devalued; the government uses powerful financial levers to prevent you from having another child; therefore, to make sure you can have a boy, you abort the girl you’re carrying.

The result? 16 million “missing girls” in China. Ironically, the skewed ratio of men to women gives young women considerable leverage in chosing whom to marry – and that’s what the Men’s Rightser’s seem to see as the real injustice here.

As Evil Pundit wrote, evidently speaking for many (given the numerous upvotes he got):

Wow. I’ve always disliked the authoritarian Chinese government, but for once, it’s done something good.

I may need to reconsider my attitude.

IncrediblyFatMan added:

China wants to become the next superpower and world leader. They aren’t going to do it by allowing the kinds of social decay that rot away at the competing nations.

Revorob joked:

If they brought that in over here, most women in Australia would be living on the street.

“Or,” Fondueguy quipped in response, “they could learn to work.”

At the moment, all the comments in the thread praising the Chinese government for this move (and there are many more)  have net upvotes; the only comment in the negative? One suggesting that the Telegraph isn’t exactly a reliable source.

Speaking of which, here’s a more balanced look at the issue on China.org.cn that examines some of the consequences of the new ruling for Chinese women.

Let’s look at some of those. According to one Beijing lawyer quoted in the piece:

“[H]ousewives, especially those in the rural areas who have no job and are responsible for taking care of their families, will be affected most by this new change,” she said. “If their husbands want a divorce, they are likely to be kicked out of the house with nothing.”

Luo Huilan, a professor of women’s studies at China Women’s University in Beijing, agreed.

In rural areas, she said, men have the final say in family matters. All essential family assets, such as home, car and bank deposits, are registered in the men’s names, and women fill the roles of only wife, mother and farmworker.

“Their labor, though substantial, hardly gets recognition. Without a good education, they have to rely heavily on their husbands,” Luo said. “In case of divorce, a woman is driven out of her husband’s life, home and family, and finds herself an alien even in her parents’ home. No wonder the new interpretation of the Marriage Law has aroused concern among women.”

And no wonder it’s drawn cheers on the Men’s Rights subreddit.

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ozymandias42
10 years ago

(is a female feminist running a masculist blog. Just saying)

Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

(I know but I’m trying to make it super simple here.)

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
10 years ago

Because some (most) exclude men…but somehow you want us to support you. That doesn’t seem right at all.

If you don’t want men to be a part of the feminist movement, that is fine. … I would say “I guess I am not wanted, so you are on your own”

Don’t get confused! While most feminists are perfectly happy to have “men” as a group join them, whether or not you are wanted is an entirely different matter. Gender aside, having a little bit of skill in reading comprehension and being able to argue with precision and accuracy is a plus. Lots of men make delightful and valuable feminists, but you’re still not doing well — you, Brandon, the individual of unimportant sex and gender — if this debate is some kind of tryout for getting feminists to like you.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
10 years ago

Just because most feminists don’t “hate men” doesn’t mean we have to like every man in existence either. For example, I love puppies — but even they have the occasional individual who’s just kind of a dick (the kind of puppy who can barely unclamp from the tit long enough to mutter “bitches ain’t shit” …if you want to explicitly include MRAs in this puppy metaphor. :D)

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@Ozy: While I agree with more of what you write compared to sites like Feministe and Feministing, I wouldn’t call your blog a masculist blog. Even the name No, Seriously, What About Teh Menz? just sounds condescending as if you are mocking issues that are important to men.

I just see your blog as a feminist blog with a slight twist.

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@Bagelsan: Why did you put men in quotes?

So, I can only become a feminist if I think, act and behave just like everyone here…ya…I guess I will never be a feminist then.

Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

Brandon, we’re not like dying to have you on our side here. We weren’t really expecting you to turn into a feminist.

Which is really okay. I, at least, am not that bent out of shape over the fact that one particular guy isn’t a feminist. I’m not going to break my butt trying to convince you. Go forth and be a not-feminist, I guess, and try and have fun with that.

KathleenB
KathleenB
10 years ago

Brandon: Yes, I’m sure everyone here was waiting with bated breath for the pronouncement from you Dudley Keyboard. We will all commence to to reordering out lives to fit your strictures right away.

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

At least we can all agree on something

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
10 years ago

@Bagelsan: Why did you put men in quotes?

Because I was quoting you, doll. Pretty standard use of the things. And I was simultaneously scare-quoting the charmingly naive way you treat “men” as a monolithic group that can be said to collectively like or dislike anything, or that can be collectively liked or disliked.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
10 years ago

So, I can only become a feminist if I think, act and behave just like everyone here…ya…I guess I will never be a feminist then.

Not “just like” — I only want “as well as.” And yes, then you still will never be.

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@Bagelsan: Naive, like saying heterosexual men like having sex with women…that kind of monolithic thinking. 😉

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@Bagelsan: Be still my heart, what will I do in life if I don’t become a feminist. Oh yea, work, make money, have boatloads of sex, travel, make new friends…and basically have a good life.

kristinmh
kristinmh
10 years ago

I am not trying to persuade anyone, nor do I really care if you or anyone else adopt my position.

Well, for someone who doesn’t care what we think you’re spending an awful lot of time here arguing with us!

And being a goldbug doesn’t make you self-centred, of course. You are self-centred because you seem to judge things only through the “what’s best for Brandon” filter. You don’t want any responsibilities towards another human being and you don’t see any problems with that, and if that’s not cold and self-centred I don’t know what is. The goldbuggery just came after it in the sentence, because lists of three things are much funnier that lists of two or four.

cynickal
cynickal
10 years ago

@Bagelsan: Be still my heart, what will I do in life if I don’t become a feminist.? Oh yea, work, make money, have boatloads of sex, travel, make new friends…and basically have a good life still be a douche bag to at least 51% of the human race.

FTFY

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@Kristinmh And why should I be responsible for another human being? They should be responsible for themselves.

Or are you saying that I don’t like to have obligations placed on me by a third party to take care of someone financially? What do I look like…that persons parent? Adults need to take care of themselves and I find it selfish of someone to ask that they be taken care of when they are perfectly capable of doing so.

I actually find that idea insulting to women…as if they can’t possibly take care of themselves. Which they very much can. Especially in today’s world. I might have agreed with you if this was the 50’s. But it isn’t and women can go to college, get a good job and support themselves. That concept doesn’t make me self-centered…it makes me see women for what they are…my equal.

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

He confused me with Katz? Add “Fucking illiterate” to his list of idiocies. I see now he’s also played the “If a feminist anywhere didn’t support my cause, and by support I mean do the whole thing, I don’t have to ever listen to feminists!”

Listen, sweetcheeks: The discrimination against women is substantially worse than that affecting men. Women are disadvantaged substantially more than men in nearly every arena. That your primacy has cost you in 2 ways that lead to institutional bias in fairly minor aspects of your life (The draft, and ~10% worse sentences in criminal courts) is simply not as big a deal as the overwhelming list of shit women have to put up with, solely on institutional levels. We aren’t obligated to fix your smaller problems first, especially since if we’re going to be remotely honest, the draft is probably not going to come up until the global balance of power is totally skewed by the removal of weapons of mass destruction. Now, you’re not obligated to specifically move first to fix women’s problems either, but I expect at least some measure of support from people who aren’t asshats, and by that I at least mean voting to end such jackassery. And if folks promise to end the selective service, or reduce criminal sentences, I’ll vote for them (Provided there are no anti-woman, anti-poor, anti-PoC, anti-gay, etc riders), because I’m not an asshat. Hell, I’ll probably help on the activist level too, but I’m sure as hell not doing it all for you; it’s not in me to work on the smaller problems first.

@Bagelsan: Naive, like saying heterosexual men like having sex with women…that kind of monolithic thinking. 😉

Your stupidity knows no bounds. Yes, after you by definition remove all the men who don’t just want sex with women, and all men who don’t want sex, you are only left with men who want sex with women. That doesn’t mean men are a monolith, it means definitions can be awesome.

@Bagelsan: Be still my heart, what will I do in life if I don’t become a feminist. Oh yea, work, make money, have boatloads of sex, travel, make new friends…and basically have a good life.
You could do all those things supporting feminists too, you’d just also have the satisfaction of not being a bigoted asshat.

Which as we all know you’ve made great efforts to show is very important to your self image.

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

@Kristinmh And why should I be responsible for another human being? They should be responsible for themselves.

You’re not a super special awesome island. Neither is anyone else.

You can’t ever claim ultimate responsibility for another human, but you can easily decide it’s your responsibility to help them. You seem to have foregone that too. Why should you? See about not-islands; others will for you. Reciprocating? Kind of a thing.

Or are you saying that I don’t like to have obligations placed on me by a third party to take care of someone financially? What do I look like…that persons parent? Adults need to take care of themselves and I find it selfish of someone to ask that they be taken care of when they are perfectly capable of doing so.

You didn’t restrict yourself solely to the financial, dude. You denied all responsibility, period. You said being expected to consult your girlfriend before making plans was a horrendous obligation, for fuck’s sake. Maybe you shouldn’t claim financial responsibility, but it’s not the sum total of responsibility.

I actually find that idea insulting to women…as if they can’t possibly take care of themselves

Who said anything about women, specifically, besides you? I take it upon myself to help all my friends, male and female, when I can, which isn’t always.

Especially in today’s world. I might have agreed with you if this was the 50′s. But it isn’t and women can go to college, get a good job and support themselves. That concept doesn’t make me self-centered…it makes me see women for what they are…my equal.

You’re fucking stupid. Women still face massive bias against them in economic terms. It’s why feminists keep harping on the wage, promotion, and hiring gaps. Men still expect them to take responsibility for the lion’s share of the housework. We should be equals, but we’re still not treated as such yet.

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@Rutee: Ya…getting forced by your government to pick up a rifle and start shooting people is “fairly minor”. It is easy to say that since you will never be forced to do something like that.

Telling men that either you don’t want them in the feminist movement or that you can only join and be valuable if you behave in a manner you deem appropriate, and then expecting men to support you is highly illogical.

That’s like me saying “women are not welcome in our movement and we don’t want you…yet can you do us this big favor to help us end the draft”. If any group was that hostile to you, would you want to participate or even pledge support to it? I think not.

You are basically saying the MGTOW equivalent of “Women suck…but they should help us prove that women suck” Sounds like if you joined the MGTOW movement, you would be working against your best interests…which you would be.

If you don’t want men in the movement (or the handful of men that will jump through your hoops) that is fine. At least it would be understandable if you were saying “We don’t want most or any men, we can do it ourselves so we don’t need your help or support”

Going it alone is admirable, but alienating a group of people then expecting or demanding their support is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. It’s like asking a die hard Democrat to support a Republican.

If you believed in equality, you would fight to end the draft. Equality just isn’t about fighting for the benefit of your own gender…it’s about making things equal. And Selective Service unequally benefits women as it stands now.

So, discrimination = fight fight fight. Benefits = oh well, the men can fight that one.

It’s must be nice to cherry pick your issues so they only help women. I thought feminism was about equality. I guess not. And you want men to support you…pfft

Pecunium
10 years ago

Brandon: So… “they did it too” is your excuse for being an ass? Really, you need to find a more honest set of partners.

I’ve had two STD scares in my sexual career. One partner had another partner show up with Cllamydia. She called me to tell me I might have been exposed. This was after we’d had an unpleasant break up.

Another partner and I had bad chemistry. Really bad. I got a yeast infection. I went to the clinic, got tested, got a prophylactic shot, and called her.

Turns out there was no STD.

Why? Because that’s what decent people do.

Your definition of judging is bizarre. I mean really. I don’t give a shit, at one level, if someone like blood-play. I don’t care if someone has HSV, or a partner who has it; so long as I can make an informed decision.

If someone chooses to hide those facts from me. That I care about. The same way I’d care if someone had seizure narcolepsy, and didn’t inform me before I let them drive me someplace.

I know few people that start a committed relationship, then have a talk about sleeping with multiple partners. The women I know and have slept with, the majority of them automatically imply that if you are in a committed relationship, you are only sleeping with that person.

Again, you need to see a better class of person. In the going on 30 years I’ve been sexually active I have never had a partner whom I was going to be seeing on a more than casual basis who didn’t share with me her ideas on monogamy/non-monogamy.

This may be that I was more proactive than you. It may be that I spend more time in places where non-traditional relationships are common. But my experience, when someone wants you to not fuck anyone else, they tell you.

Regarding feminists: Are you saying that ManBoobz is like all the other feminist sites you’ve been to? Or are we not feminists?

That cartoon… strawman. That you think it’s typical of interactions with feminists… telling.

You don’t like my opinions. Fine. But saying that feminists are harpies, and the like (which is what that comic you claim represents the discussion you, and your friends typically have with feminists) does border on misogyny. It’s an important distinction, one you seem unwilling to look at (much as the one between my saying lead was a better investment vehicle than gold, not that lead is a good basis got a commodity backed currency… by the by, take a look at the rates at which non-commodity currencies recovered from the Great Depression, as compared to commodity currencies).

The issue isn’t that you don’t date feminists, it’s why.

It is just like the conversation earlier, sure you can get married for less than 100 bucks, but the majority of people do not do that. They choose to get married and have a big wedding to go along with it. The examples people are bringing up are in the minority not what the majority of Americans actually do.

This is what we are talking about.

You say, Marriage is expensive. We say, Only if you make it so; the actual costs are pretty small.

And you say, “Yeah, you could do that, but most people don’t. Which means getting married is going to cost you a lot of money.”

Which is nonsense. Just as you choose to gamble your investment dollars on gold, and spend you entertaiment money on travel, or HDTVs, or what have you, those people choose (you know that thing you are doing by not getting married) to spend money on a big party to celebrate something they think is important.

Which is their right.

@Kathleen: That is what birth control and condoms are for. Words don’t offer the same amount of protection as a latex condom.

Which is the part you ignored about talking things out, and tests. I don’t know about you, but I can afford to wait a little while to get to the hot and sweaty.

I don’t see men or women just saying “I have HPV!” right before intercourse.

Again, you need to hang out with more open/honest people.

Plus, most feminists fail 3-5 minutes into a conversation. I can typically sense it by their tone of voice and their body language. If they start bashing their current or former boyfriend…that is a nice red flag as well. The more man-bashing they do, the quicker I want to get the fuck away from them. If they even utter “Typical man” or any of it’s variants…I walk away right then and there without saying a word…even if she is in mid-sentence.

Right, because judgement of a group based on the something that would be so wrong… say, backing away from feminsts.

Nothing extreme in making a snap judgement about a woman talking about her specific past, nope.

In response to the draft issue. Even if NOW and a few other organizations filed Amicus curiae…what was that? 30 years ago! Feminists fight and fight for the wage gap, but they don’t put in the same amount of effort (or anything close to that) for the draft.

What Draft? Seriously. What draft. Right now their is mandatory registration, but no draft. When there was talk about reinstating it (for the “WAR ON TERROR”) women’s groups were opposed to reinstating it without it being gender neutral. The conservatives were against drafting women.

I just find it odd that we could be forced drafted into a war and half of the population is free from ever having to go…I wish I had that perk.

But you dismiss the actions of feminists to remove it, and then blame feminists for not fixing it.

Which is more of that borderline misogyny. You blame for things they are working against.

I didn’t say feminists were horrible…

No, not in so many words (as with your insulting of those who choose to get married, by telling them they were wasting their time, and only women benefit from it, and that the gravy train is why “girls” are for it. Nothing insulting in that), but you posted a link to a comic about straw-feminsts and then said it was typical of all your interactions with feminists (which, perforce, must include those here, no?).

That’s insulting.

And the comic you linked to, so approvingly, chock-full of “uncivil words”, and you said was accurate. So again, you have dressed your insulsts with a veneer of deniability. “You” didn’t say it, but nonetheless it was said, and you agreed with it.

@kristinmh: I am just stating an opinion. I am not trying to persuade anyone, nor do I really care if you or anyone else adopt my position.

Bullshit. If you didn’t care you’d not be spending so much time in responding to so many people.

alimony for life (even though it is rare nowadays).

Alimony at all is rare, but it was one of the planks in your anti-marriage platform.

kristinmh
kristinmh
10 years ago

Hey Brandon, remember how I said upthread that your big problem with marriage was that it involved factors beyond your control? Yeah, that.

I’m sorry to be the first to inform you that you’re part of a social species and that we depend on each other for our survival – you as much as anyone else, my special little libertarian cupcake – but being part of the human community, unfortunately, does mean that you have responsibilities towards others. Not necessarily to support them financially – able-bodied adults are responsible for earning their own livings; that’s just part of the human condition – but to take into account the needs, feelings, and opinions of others when your choices affect them.

Like, say, if you and your GF were to have a baby, perhaps having a discussion with her about how she feels about working inside vs. outside of the home instead of making a blanket declaration that you’d never allow her to quit her job because you don’t want to financially support her. Because, you know, that’s a big decision that affects her a lot more profoundly than it affects you, and your paranoia about alimony is a lot less important than the needs of your hypothetical child. I mean, you’re all up in arms about marriage because you think it places others in too much control over your life and finances, but you see no problem in exercising that control over others. Do you not see how selfish that is?

Asking you to consider how your actions affect others is not placing some tremendous unheard-of burden on you. On the contrary, interdependence is the basic survival strategy of Homo sapiens sapiens. Don’t like it, go be a sea turtle or something.

kristinmh
kristinmh
10 years ago

That being said, I can sympathize with not wanting to be human.

So can Frank Black:

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@Rutee: I am all about reciprocating. If people help me out, I do my best to help them. While we all have to rely on others for somethings, some people are more dependent on others. I am saying one shouldn’t be completely dependent on another human being.

There is a difference between wanting to be responsible for someone or wanting to help them and being forced to help them when you do not want to.

“Who said anything about women, specifically, besides you? I take it upon myself to help all my friends, male and female, when I can, which isn’t always.”

Ya, I help out when I can…but it would be different if someone else was forcing me to help someone.

Last time I checked, women make up the majority of college students. They can pick what ever major they like. they get “women-only” loans and grants, etc,,, So please don’t give me this crap that women are unable to learn, go to school and provide for themselves. In fact, women make up the majority of teachers, nurses, therapists, social workers, dental assistants and if you want the gray area, legal prostitution (Nevada, Germany) and porn stars.

I also find it funny that feminists aren’t clamoring to end the hiring gaps in those jobs. So male dominated jobs = discrimination. Female dominated jobs = ok.

While not rich by any stretch, these are all middle to upper middle class jobs that provide enough income to care for yourself. If you can’t take care of yourself on 60K a year, you are overspending or not budgeting your money correctly.

Men don’t do half the housework because we spend more hours working at our full time job.
http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2006/oct/wk1/art03.htm

Pecunium
10 years ago

@Kristinmh And why should I be responsible for another human being? They should be responsible for themselves.

I thought you just spent a lot of time ranting that women ought to be actively responsible for men, what with that, “as soon as women make this thing I dislike, but most men aren’t willing to get off their ass to fix a big priority, I’ll give a shit about the things that affect them.”

And you are back to the whole alimony thing again with, “I don’t like to have obligations placed on me by a third party to take care of someone financially? “

I actually find that idea insulting to women…as if they can’t possibly take care of themselves.

We agree… only that you are the one saying that. Women aren’t. Feminists aren’t arguing for sex-independant spousal support. We are arguing that when on partner is put into a place of dependence, the other partner shouldn’t be allowed to just abandon them.

That society makes this a situation more common for women than for men is something feminists are actively working against.

@Rutee: Ya…getting forced by your government to pick up a rifle and start shooting people is “fairly minor”. It is easy to say that since you will never be forced to do something like that.

Again with the idiocy. Recall those amicus briefs?

And really dude.. are you less than 26? Because if you aren’t, you aren’t gonna be drafted. Newsflash: there isn’t a draft. Barring a repeat of WW2, their won’t be a draft. We didn’t even really toy with the idea of one for Iraq; never mind the ways in which the standards for enlistement were dropped (and the poverty draft is more damaging to society than an actual draft would be).

Then you ignore that the most recent legislation to be attempted, in relation to the draft widened the scope to all men and women.

SEC. 10. REGISTRATION OF FEMALES UNDER THE MILITARY SELECTIVE SERVICE ACT.

(a) REGISTRATION REQUIRED- Section 3(a) of the Military Selective Service Act (50 U.S.C. 453(a)) is amended–

(1) by striking `male’ both places it appears;

(2) by inserting `or herself’ after `himself’; and

(3) by striking `he’ and inserting `the person’.

(b) CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Section 16(a) of the Military Selective Service Act (50 U.S.C. App. 466(a)) is amended by striking `men’ and inserting `persons’.

So that dog don’t hunt.

What, BTW, Make you think you, if drafted are likely to be slotted as an 11, 13, or 19 series MOS? Those are jobs for career soldiers, and kids. The career types, because laying out a sector of fire, planning a route march, setting a perimeter, overseeing PMCS of weapons and vehicles, co-ordinating fires, setting/triggering an ambush, etc. takes years of practice to do with any hope of real success, and kids because it take the sense of immortality that comes of being 19, and not having been shot at, to be willing to do it.

I’ve got about eight feet of Field Manuals on how to do that shit. You’d be more likely to be in the supply chain, or a clerk in the rear. Supporting the guys at the sharp end, but at any real risk of killing and dying.

Telling men that either you don’t want them in the feminist movement or that you can only join and be valuable if you behave in a manner you deem appropriate, and then expecting men to support you is highly illogical.

So why do you think it’s any better when you tell feminists that they can only get your support when they do it the way you want it done?

If you don’t want men in the movement (or the handful of men that will jump through your hoops) that is fine. At least it would be understandable if you were saying “We don’t want most or any men, we can do it ourselves so we don’t need your help or support”

That’s not what been said. What’s been said is, “we don’t want men telling us what issues feminists should be putting first.”, which is what you are doing.

If that’s too big an idea for you to get your head around, I can see why marriage is giving you troubles.

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

@Rutee: Ya…getting forced by your government to pick up a rifle and start shooting people is “fairly minor”. It is easy to say that since you will never be forced to do something like that.

Is your grasp of international politics as weak as your grasp on economics?

It’s not going to happen until WMDs are no longer part of the global power equation and trade is no longer global. Americans no longer hate a group enough to die killing them, as we did with communists. We don’t have the option of drafting in our imperialistic wars any more, they’re not that broadly supported. In fact, the only way we can get Americans to agree to them now is by making sure they place absolutely no burden on the American people beyond buying yellow ribbon bumper stickers. You do know that the reason the debt increased so much in Shrub’s wars is because he knew nobody would support a tax to get this shit done, right? If he couldn’t get re-elected for taxing these wars, he’s not going to be for a draft. Ending the war and hte draft would automatically have won any opposition campaign by the democrats.

Nobody is going to launch a conventional war of conquest against a nuclear power. They’re certainly not going to do it to the biggest economy on the planet, not in the age of globalization, where that *will* tank their economy. The draft *IS* a minor thing; it has exited your life as an actual issue that will affect you on a more-than-philosophical level. To claim otherwise is either ignorance or dishonesty.

Telling men that either you don’t want them in the feminist movement or that you can only join and be valuable if you behave in a manner you deem appropriate, and then expecting men to support you is highly illogical.

I gave one specific stricture. Vote for things that will end discrimination against women. That’s it. That is, in a very real sense, the least you can do. If you find that somehow onerous, I don’t care about you. I don’t want you. You’re deadwood in ANY movement. I didn’t even tell you that you had to change your behavior in any other respect.

You are basically saying the MGTOW equivalent of “Women suck…but they should help us prove that women suck” Sounds like if you joined the MGTOW movement, you would be working against your best interests…which you would be.

Only if you’re one of those morons who thinks that not only is misandristic institutional bias a serious threat (Which is about as reality-based as anti-white institutional bias being a serious threat), but that feminists want to enact it. But the fact of the matter is that you’re only going to lose the unfair advantages you got. That’s a far cry from what MRAs expect women to give up.

If you don’t want men in the movement (or the handful of men that will jump through your hoops) that is fine. At least it would be understandable if you were saying “We don’t want most or any men, we can do it ourselves so we don’t need your help or support”

I don’t want any men who refuse to vote in favor of equality for women, no.

If you believed in equality, you would fight to end the draft. Equality just isn’t about fighting for the benefit of your own gender…it’s about making things equal. And Selective Service unequally benefits women as it stands now.

Technically, I could fight to include women in the draft and fight for equality, as it is in Israel on this count.

I fight to end the draft because I’m a pacifist. I’m not doing it all though. I already told you I’d help on an activist level; make phone calls along with everyone else, march, etc. You want me to do it all, to count as fighting for it. That’s asshattery of the highest order.

So, discrimination = fight fight fight. Benefits = oh well, the men can fight that one.

Look, jackass, you don’t get to pretend that the tiny sliver of institutional bias against you is equal to the mountain that faces women. You’re acting like women benefit as much as men do, and that’s either stupid or dishonest. If women did, then ending benefits for both genders would be equivalent causes to fight for of equal magnitude, and deserve equal prioritization. But that’s not the real world, so.

It’s must be nice to cherry pick your issues so they only help women. I thought feminism was about equality. I guess not. And you want men to support you…pfft

Must be nice to be illiterate, what with not catching things like “Hell, I’ll help you on an activist level, but I ain’t doing the organization”. Makes it easy to pretend your opponents said whatever you wanted them to say.

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@Pecunium: Ok…I don’t really put that much thought into divulging my past sexual history with others. For one, women start acting different when I talk about those things. Some of the times, one of the girls will ask about STD’s. I sometimes just say “Im clean” in a off the cuff manner. Basically…I really don’t pay to much attention to it. If she asks, I don’t lie. That is pretty much my take on the STD comments.

Where the hell did I say I like blood-play? That is just nasty…and talk about high risk behavior.

My dealings with women who label themselves as feminists haven’t gone very well…so based on precedence I just ignore them as potential friends/lovers. I don’t want to waste my time or hers since we most likely will not get along. I have a different world view than they do and while I agree with some of feminism I also dislike and have opposing viewpoints with other parts. This causes a lot of strain and I am not in a relationship to be stressed out or constantly fighting about discrimination or the patriarchy. Also the fact that a lot of feminists immediately see me as someone who oppresses women…that just isn’t a turn on for me.

In regards to ManBoobz, I see the one redeeming value of it is David rarely deletes comments or blocks people even if everyone disagrees with them. To me that means he actually respects the first amendment (even if he is doing it just to get more ideas for posts).

Sites like Feministing and Feministe will shut you down the moment you deviate from feminist dogma. To me that is intellectually dishonest and it shields the readers there from debate and challenging ideas.

That cartoon was completely exaggerated…but it has been similar to many arguments I have had with feminists. It starts off as nice and respectful and the more I am get called a bigot and a misogynist, the more blunt I get with my words. I typically don’t use name calling since sinking that low means you have already lost the debate. We debate ideas not people.

I do think that women get more benefits from marriage then not. It always seems to be women that are clamoring to get married (yes not ALL women want to get married). I have a few guy friends that want to get married but the majority of them think “Fuck that! I am not going to rely on one woman to fulfill my sexual needs, especially when women today are far more sexually active”

Thanks feminism 😉

While I am stating my opinions, It doesn’t really matter if you agree with me. If you do great…if not oh well.

Alimony is rare…that is why I said it. But if you get married you are opening yourself up to paying alimony. If you stay single you wont ever have to pay it. And my state doesn’t have any palimony crap laws either.

@Kristin: If I have a baby, I am responsible to take care of that child…not her. The baby can not possibly defend or look after itself…she can. She is a grown adult. Assuming she can’t take care of herself is infantilizing her.

Again, there is three options: 1) we can both agree to work 2) We can both agree she will stay home and 3) I think she should work and she wants to stay at home

Here are the answers:
1) Great
2) Not happening
3) Houston we have a problem

Solutions:
1) We both get what we want
2 and 3) In order for us to both get what we want, I would have to end the relationship so she can find someone that will want her to stay at home.

The only thing I see myself being morally and ethically obligated to is paying child support.

Pecunium
10 years ago

Brandon: @Pecunium: Ok…I don’t really put that much thought into divulging my past sexual history with others. For one, women start acting different when I talk about those things. Some of the times, one of the girls will ask about STD’s. I sometimes just say “Im clean” in a off the cuff manner. Basically…I really don’t pay to much attention to it. If she asks, I don’t lie. That is pretty much my take on the STD comments.

I don’t say I’m clean. I say, “My last test was x long ago. I’ve added Y new partners since then, they had tests as of z” If they aren’t comfortable with that, I’m not interested. I am willing to take some risks (condoms work, or they don’t), but I have other partners to consider.

Where the hell did I say I like blood-play? That is just nasty…and talk about high risk behavior.

Where did I say you did?

Really. Because this is the sort of thing which causes (I think) a lot of your problem. Not just that you fail to see what other people didn’t say, but in not seeing what you do say.

I am not in a relationship to be stressed out or constantly fighting about discrimination or the patriarchy. Also the fact that a lot of feminists immediately see me as someone who oppresses women…that just isn’t a turn on for me.

This, I think is the real problem. I’ve been in lots of relationships with feminists (both sexual, and not). Even where we disagree on things, relating to feminism, “feminism” isn’t what our relationship is about. Take Ginmar. We disagree on a number of things related to feminism; and how to argue for it. Doesn’t change the underlying basis of our relationship, and lots of our conversations are about things which have nothing to do with feminism.

Alimony is rare…that is why I said it

Not quite. What you said, was, “If you get married don’t forget you open yourself up to paying alimony, and 97 percent of alimony is paid to women, so it’s no wonder women like marriage”.

As to palimony being crap… We disagree. No surprise. I think that, should a partner be disadvantaged as a result of the way the partnership was built, the other partner ought not be able to just walk away.

It is, you may note, a gender neutral position. That men are socially disadvantaged, in other ways, if they should enter into the position of dependent partner is why the alimony stat is as skewed as it is, and part of why the patriarchy hurts men too.

None of that touches any of the ways in which you mis-undertsand what marriage confers, nor the ways in which you fail to see that your style of argument is polite, but insulting, and something short of being actually civil.

That may be the real reason your interactions with feminists end the way they do.

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@Pecunium: You are talking to a former 19 Delta. It takes 16 Weeks of OSUT training. 11B takes 13 weeks. Combat arms jobs are where draftee’s will go since the front line is where they would be needed most. They certainly aren’t drafting you to learn a foreign language.

Infantry and Calvary don’t require high scores on the ASVAB. (I can see the “your dumb” comments coming…I joined calvary because I was 19 at the time and I wanted to blow shit up) Throwing grenades and looking like a badass looked so much better than my crappy Stop and Shop job at the time. Plus Calvary has the best Army uniforms.

Being in the service also gave me a little insight into the whole draft issue. Draftee’s would make shitty soldiers. They don’t want to be their and they would most likely resort to passive-aggressive behaviors which are counter-productive.

Also Calvary is younger than most other MOS’s but most of the NCO’s their were in there late 20’s early 30’s.

@Rutee: I am interchanging the draft and Selective Service…basically one is nothing but “attendance” or a “role call” before the big day.

Molly Ren
10 years ago

Brandon is giving me flashbacks to this guy, at least in terms of the last paragraph.

Also to that time when I expressed surprise MRAL identified as a liberal/libertarian, and Rutee was like “Ha!” IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW.

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

@Rutee: I am interchanging the draft and Selective Service…basically one is nothing but “attendance” or a “role call” before the big day.

So your big response to my listing the barriers before actually having a draft is a saber rattling act which has gone nowhere and will continue to go nowhere, in terms of actual effects? If you can not get the political capital to tax for a war, you absolutely can not draft. You’re ignoring this basic point, and it’s just making you look more and more stupid.

I also note you’ve magicked your way out of responding to everything I said about activism, prioritization, etc.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

Going it alone is admirable, but alienating a group of people then expecting or demanding their support is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. It’s like asking a die hard Democrat to support a Republican.

That is actually happening in one district here in AZ. There is quite literally a movement afoot by the the die hard Democrats to get one die hard Republican to replace a different die hard Republican.

These are yellow dog Dems. They are the ones who actually become precinct committeemen and who either resigned or put it off to help a Republican out. So you know, even though the Republicans have been horrible to this state, they are still helping this one Republican out.

So it is possible.

Your problem with feminists is that they point out you are wrong (which is rarely pleasant of course but one should always be sufficiently open minded enough to accept that possibility which you are not), they show you how you are wrong and when you refuse to pay attention to what they say or show you, they refuse to back down like you assume all women should when you refuse to listen to a woman or women.

Pecunium
10 years ago

@Pecunium: You are talking to a former 19 Delta. It takes 16 Weeks of OSUT training. 11B takes 13 weeks. Combat arms jobs are where draftee’s will go since the front line is where they would be needed most. They certainly aren’t drafting you to learn a foreign language.

Then you aren’t really in much a spot to be whining about the risks of being drafted to go kill people, are you?

I joined calvary because I was 19 at the time and I wanted to blow shit up)… Also Calvary is younger than most other MOS’s but most of the NCO’s their were in there late 20′s early 30′s.

That would the the whole point of the combat MOSs being a mix for career soldiers, and kids.

Infantry and Calvary don’t require high scores on the ASVAB. (I can see the “your dumb” comments coming

Look again. I did a career. I spent a lot of it with combat arms troops. I got to play with Marines, SF, Seals, 11Bs. I was lucky enough to do it with people from more armies than I can recall.

Combat arms jobs are where draftee’s will go since the front line is where they would be needed most. They certainly aren’t drafting you to learn a foreign language.

No, actually. The needs of the service are what drive the draft (you might like to take a look at the actual history of the draft). An entire army needs to be fielded, and volunteer enlistment isn’t all that high in a conscript army.

Having been in a linguist MOS (which happens to have a lot people reclassing into it) and being from a family which has some history in the service (my father was a Marine, and my grandfather was in ww1), and being rather fond of history, and military history… draftees got every job the Army had. In Vietnam the made up most of the linguists. Same in WW2. When 90 percent of the people in the ranks are inducted, 90 percent of the jobs go to inductees.

And older soldiers, don’t make the best grunts, so older draftees (e.g. WW2, when the average age of inductee was 26, and the average age of a dogface was still only 19) end up in support roles.

Also, as Rutee points out, you didn’t address any of the rest of my comments; esp. as regards your tone.

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@Molly: At least that guy knows what he wants…even if it is pretty shallow.

@Rutee: I didn’t respond to your comment because you are basically making the claim that “I know what is going to happen in the future” For fuck sakes, we had nukes and other WMD’s in the 60’s and we still drafted people into Vietnam. We also don’t trade with every country. So it does seem that globalization and trading actually prevents wars. But there are still lots of countries we can easily justify going to war with. North Korea.

I can’t possibly refute those claims because, you are speculating what future politicians will vote for.

Also, attending a protest and filing some simple paperwork as support is nothing but lip service. Feminist blogs are practically silent on Selective Service. Most of the posts on the popular feminist sites talk about the following: abortion, vintage sexist posters, marketing, pop culture, republicans, wage gap. Oh I especially liked the article on Jezebel that asked how many of its readers hit their boyfriends…ya real tolerant bunch. I just love the hypocrisy…don’t abuse women…”HEY GIRLS DO YOU BEAT YOUR BOYFRIENDS?”

@Elizabeth: Really? You are really going to wedge in that flimsy excuse to negate what I said? The point wasn’t republicans or democrats…but that as a man, working with feminists is working against my best interests. It’s like being rich and voting for a politician that wants to raise my taxes and only my taxes.

Pecunium
10 years ago

For fuck sakes, we had nukes and other WMD’s in the 60′s and we still drafted people into Vietnam

Yes, and we’d had that draft, non-stop, since 1942. Which is very different from starting one up, when there isn’t an existential crisis.

Even when there were intimations made of a just such a threat from Iraq (drones with biological weapons being flown by Iraq, into the US, or Condoleeza Rice telling us we couldn’t wait until there was Mushroom Cloud over New York). We didn’t seriously consider raising a draft. When the idea was mentioned, it was said to be a ridiculous political stunt on the part of the Democrats to undermine the war.

So why, when the 2ID’s battle staff thinks they, (with the ROK Army) can hold a line 50 miles S of Seoul until the needed troops from the US arrive, have arrived, and can start the counter-offensive at roughly D+18, there is the need for a draft?

And why do you keep dismissing that the most recent legislation to enact a draft included women? It’s almost as if you have an agenda what won’t be swayed with facts. You say, in one sentence that the future can’t be predicted; so you can’t be asked to make any, while in the next predicting that future.

So, explain to me the justification we have for war with N. Korea?

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@Penculium: Because if they did start up a draft…who are they taking first….the men that have already signed up. It’s the path of least resistance. The govt could either quickly get a list of women to get drafted…or use the list they already have.

We don’t have a justification for attacking North Korea from my point of view. But when we trade with other countries it acts as a deterrent for war. Have you noticed since WW2 most of the wars are against countries where we do little to no trading with. Why wouldn’t we attack England if they did something we opposed? Because they import a lot of good shit to the US. Having trading partners prevents wars because each party gains because of the money and products exchanged.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

@Elizabeth: Really? You are really going to wedge in that flimsy excuse to negate what I said? The point wasn’t republicans or democrats…but that as a man, working with feminists is working against my best interests. It’s like being rich and voting for a politician that wants to raise my taxes and only my taxes.

See what I mean about not listening? (And no, I expect you to ignore the point I am trying to make like you do everything else.)

I pointed out where you are wrong-instead of saying “hmm, odd, can you show me what causes this odd thing?” you simply dismiss it since it does not fit in your world view.

Then you return to the fact that if you work with feminists on anything, you are working against your best interest (despite the ample evidence to the contrary I might add) and then do another simile that can also be easily refuted:
French Billionaires Call For Higher Taxes
Billionaires voice support for higher taxes on the wealthy
Tax Me, I’m Rich, Says Deep-Pocketed Group

Pecunium
10 years ago

Brandon: You’re ignoring all the actual content related to your claims about feminism (and your misrepresentation of your reasons for not liking the present draft registration), to focus on what… poorly understood theories of international relations.

While ducking the very issue you proposed (i.e. the US going to war with N. Korea… I’ll quote you, so there’s less chance of you saying I didn’t understand you; the way you did when caught out on your backtracking on “letting” someone do something you don’t like. But there are still lots of countries we can easily justify going to war with. North Korea.).

I’m not asking for a justification you believe in… just some justification (in light of the facts I presented about the 2ID’s expectations on the probably COAs,and outcomes of N. Korea invading S. Korea) for 1: the US going to war with N. Korea, and 2: reinstituting a draft.

As to the “path of least resistance” They have to actually pass a law to initiate a draft. I’d say the thing you ought to care more about is one that feminists have been fighting for, women in combat arms. Because even if there was a 50/50 call-up, women and men, women are prohibited from being in combat arms.

Now, about Britain. Care to guess when the US scrapped War Plan Red, detailing the planned COA for a war against Great Britain?

1939. It was drawn up in the 20s. Britain was one of our largest trading partners.

Why? Because conflicts over trade are one of the most common causes of war.

In the 1890s, the US came closer than most realise to declaring war with Great Britain (and perhaps, again, invading Canada) over the British role in the dispute between Venezuela and Great Britain over Guiana. War Plan Red actually assumed a joint task force of Brits, and ANZACs would take our Pacific assets,and perhaps invade the West Coast (probably Portland by sea, and moving up to join a south moving force of Canadians from British Columbia).

So, you think the US could justify a war with N. Korea, and would need to institute a draft to prosecute it.

Let’s see the reasoning.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

*puts on barker costume* Get yer bacon popcorn here folks! Get yer bacon popcorn!

I swear, every time I read something you post Pecunium my reading list gets longer.

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@Elizabeth Ok…we are mixing shit up. There isn’t a direct link between feminism and voting for a politician to raise taxes. I was using it as an example…not to debate if rich people should pay or not pay more in taxes. But if I was in a tax bracket that a politician wanted to raise taxes on, I wouldn’t vote for them…if Warren Buffett wants to, that is his choice.

Besides women being more promiscuous and tend to have sex far more frequently then in the past, what has feminism done to help men?

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

Are you going to actually listen if I tell or show you or are you going to do what you have been doing which is: ignore or dismiss anything that does not comply with your already arrived at conclusion?

Because frankly, you really do not seem to be worth the effort. If you make an honest attempt to learn something, it will be worth my effort.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
10 years ago

But if I was in a tax bracket that a politician wanted to raise taxes on, I wouldn’t vote for them…

What if said politician wanted to raise taxes and end the draft? Mind blown??

Besides women being more promiscuous and tend to have sex far more frequently then in the past, what has feminism done to help men?

Yer precious. ‘Member that job your girlfriend has, the fact that she is literate and able to vote, the fact that you don’t have to marry her to live with her (or to protect her from completely legal rape), the fact that y’all have access to birth control, etc? Or girlfriend aside, how do you feel about the fact that 50% of the population is now able to contribute to the world in capacities other than childcare? A huge chunk of things you benefit from on a daily basis — medicine and healthcare, service jobs, transportation and engineering — all have been hugely advanced by increased female participation.

But yeah, feminism hasn’t benefited you in any way aside from those.

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@Bagelsan: Ok…an increase in the workforce. Check!

Bostonian
Bostonian
10 years ago

and not having to support the girlfriend you claim to have…

Rutee Katreya
10 years ago

@Elizabeth: Really? You are really going to wedge in that flimsy excuse to negate what I said? The point wasn’t republicans or democrats…but that as a man, working with feminists is working against my best interests. It’s like being rich and voting for a politician that wants to raise my taxes and only my taxes.

Also, attending a protest and filing some simple paperwork as support is nothing but lip service. Feminist blogs are practically silent on Selective Service. Most of the posts on the popular feminist sites talk about the following: abortion, vintage sexist posters, marketing, pop culture, republicans, wage gap. Oh I especially liked the article on Jezebel that asked how many of its readers hit their boyfriends…ya real tolerant bunch. I just love the hypocrisy…don’t abuse women…”HEY GIRLS DO YOU BEAT YOUR BOYFRIENDS?”

You fucking miserable piece of human garbage. You just bumped yourself up to the third worst poster on this forum, and I’m not sure whether you’re actually better than NWO, because you are consciously aware that women are the actual victims in society, and I don’t have reason to believe you’re suffering some sort of disorder. You are no longer stupid; you are beyond dishonest. You are a shitpile.

You just admitted that men benefit more from sexism. That men are the primary beneficiaries of society, that men get more advantages, and that for all your anti-reality whinging on the draft (Which I will get to), you know that you get the lion’s share of the benefits. Your selfish little ass just outright stated you will never work with feminists to scale back the benefits men receive, because it isn’t to your benefit to do so. This directly after complaining about how women and feminists are not ‘for equality’ because we do not prioritize the few ways you actually suffer. You know, *KNOW*, that women suffer more, and you STILL expect them to focus their efforts on you, despite outright stating you will never help them because it isn’t good for you. You are scum. Go back to whatever Men’s Rightsitarian Wankfest that spawned you. Your antics will earn you no quarter. And on a personal note, go fuck yourself.

I didn’t respond to your comment because you are basically making the claim that “I know what is going to happen in the future” For fuck sakes, we had nukes and other WMD’s in the 60′s and we still drafted people into Vietnam.

Vietnam was little more than an imperialist venture, not a defense of the homeland. It exhausted the American public’s willingness to actually sacrifice for more of the same. Yes, there was a draft in Vietnam; there was also massive public backlash throughout the entire war, ultimately resulting in the pulling out of US forces. WMDs are relevant because nobody will attack the homeland until they are removed from the power equation, because to do so is suicide by nuke as it stands. You know this; you also know that this is the only way to get support for a draft now. You still pretend a draft is a real threat. It will not happen until and unless the american people actually become willing to sacrifice for their imperial ideals; this is not the case. Again: We could not even get people to pay taxes for a war. We can not draft them. A draft is a non issue, because it is utterly impossible without a massive change in the mindset of Americans.

I can’t possibly refute those claims because, you are speculating what future politicians will vote for.

Sure you could, if you had an actual point about a thing that was actually possible, and not a boogeyman you conjured to try to scare feminists into thinking they weren’t for equality. You could find evidence that indicates that a draft is a serious threat. For instance, you could find senate and house plans that had a serious movement to draft, with wide, if not majority, support. You could find polls that indicate support by the american people for a draft. Good luck with that, it’s not actually a possibility.

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@Bostonian: Oh yea… I am just lying about Ashley.

Also, I support my girlfriend. My whole beef was that it was immoral to force someone to support another fully capable adult.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
10 years ago

@Bagelsan: Ok…an increase in the workforce. Check!

Seriously, that’s all you got out of my comment. Be honest; do you throw a dart at every comment, and then read only the sentence that dart lands on?

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
10 years ago

Also, I’m pretty sure the only reason the US might attack North Korea is if we finally get fed up with them acting like a dick to Japan. And I’d venture to suggest that we would not have to exert the entire might of the United States, universal draft and nukes galore, against a country that almost managed to get a small missile partway across the Pacific that one time.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

The first problem I see in attacking North Korea is will China join in? Because then would be an entire country effort that we could very well lose.

Brandon
Brandon
10 years ago

@Rutee: You are correct. I don’t want to scale back the benefits of men. I would rather push women to have those benefits and be treated just like men. Despite what you may think, I think I am far more of an equalist than you suspect. So lets break this down:

1) Women should sign up for Selective Service as long as men have to.
2) Women should be paid the same as men for the same job, same performance and same hours.
3) Women have their own say in what happens with their body.
4) Women should have the right to vote and participate in politics.

As it stands now, men and women just receive different benefits. While men are predominately at the top of the career ladder, they are also at the bottom. I rarely see women clamoring to equalize garbage collectors or sewer treatment workers. And these are govt jobs that have to abide by gender quotas more so than private companies.

Women pretty much rule the roost when it comes to children and the raising of them. Women get to decide if they have a baby even if the man doesn’t want to become a father. Mothers are awarded custody far more often then men. At the divorce, men are typically kicked out of the home and delegated to “weekend parent” and “child support check”. Women are typically not punished for denying the father access to the child when it is his weekend or time with the child. And child support payments have zero accountability. Oh and feminists are actively opposing shared parenting laws.

So when it comes to family matters, men pretty much have no power or say. What ever the woman says the woman usually gets.

@Bagelsan: I just summarized it.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
10 years ago

I think that a “total war with China” scenario just brings us back to the the-entire-crust-of-the-Earth-is-fucked thing though. :p