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Are Nice Guys sociopaths?

Cats: The world's most adorable sociopaths

A reader alerted me to this post on a very interesting blog I haven’t written about before. Regular readers of Man Boobz may find some of these, er, arguments to be a bit familiar:

Our culture is absolutely fucked up. Girls and women hold all control of sex. … [F]rom the first interest in girls, we’re expected to pursue them, and they’re expected to reject us. …

I’m a perfectly healthy man. I’m stronger than a lot of other men, more intelligent, more competent, I think I’m reasonably good looking, and I’m very well endowed. None of that matters though. Somehow, women go for men that fail on a comparison on multiple accounts. …

There are things like rejecting a woman, or pretending to be uninterested that make her even more interested. … Women subconsciously measure a man’s performance in bed by his dancing and posturing. If only they knew how fucking stupid and wrong they are.

I don’t know what happened with me. I’ve always had a strong sex drive, but I got fucked over socially. I wasn’t even “in” in the reject crowd. All girls rejected me, and most rejects rejected me. People made fun of me, laughed at me, picked on me, and all the girls that I lusted after were either repulsed by me, or didn’t know who I was. Even the girls that were “friends” with me, wouldn’t have sex with me. Meanwhile, they went around whoring themselves out to whatever man played this fucking dumb-ass social flirting game. They [crude sexual remarks redacted —DF] like the dirty little whores they are. I’ve been available my whole life, but the only person that ever chose me as a mate were paid prostitutes, and my wife, who is emotionally and mentally fucked up beyond comprehension.

On the surface, this reads like almost every “nice guy” lament I’ve ever seen on the internet. Oh, it’s a bit more bitter than most, but this “nice guy” hits all the right notes: like the Holocuast-trivializing “nice guy” we looked at last Sunday, he complains that women get to actually choose whom to have sex with; like the “nice guy” Redditor we looked at Monday, he still holds a grudge against former crushes who chose to go out with (and have sex with) guys who weren’t him.

The difference? For one thing, this new guy is a bit more self-aware than most “nice guys,” in that he doesn’t actually describe himself as “nice.” For another, he is (or at least claims to be) a sociopath. As might have been immediately apparent had I quoted these comments, which immediately follow what I quoted from him above:

This is the reason I don’t care about people. Why the fuck should I? Everybody [wears] a mask. I want to rape and murder people, and I pretend I’m “normal.” Normal people wear a mask where they pretend they’re friendly and honest; whereas, they’re really deceptive, insecure, and emotionally hostile.

This posting comes from Sociopathworld, a fascinating blog written by a sociopath who is basically trying to explain to non-sociopaths how people like him or her think, to clear up misconceptions about them, and to help sociopaths themselves deal better with their disorder. (The author of the blog didn’t write the comments above; they were sent in by a reader.)

For those not intimately familiar with abnormal psych, “sociopathy” (often used synonymously with the term “psychopathy”) is a term commonly used to describe what is known clinically as Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). The blogger at SociopathWorld quotes a journal article that gives this useful capsule description of psychopaths as people

characterised by an absence of empathy and poor impulse control, with a total lack of conscience. … They tend to be egocentric, callous, manipulative, deceptive, superficial, irresponsible and parasitic, even predatory.

So are “nice guys” a bunch of sociopaths? Well, no. They may be egocentric – like the “nice guy” on Tumblr who compared his lack of dates to the Holocaust. They may lack empathy – like the “nice guy” Redditor who couldn’t feel sympathy for a female “friend” who had been raped. They may be manipulative – hoping that by being excessively “nice” and doing favors for women they will earn themselves some sex.

But they lack, among other things, the impulsiveness and routine deceitfulness that tend to characterize real sociopaths. Sociopaths can be deceptively charming, but very few people would ever describe them as nice. (Indeed, if anything, it’s pickup artists that act the most like real sociopaths; indeed, I’ve heard “game” described before, I think accurately, as an attempt to get guys to think and act more like charming, conscienceless sociopaths.)

So why do “nice guy” laments make them sound so much like sociopaths? I think their egocentricity and their almost total lack of empathy are key. “Nice guys” get crushes on a lot of girls and women, but these crushes often seem to have nothing to do with the objects of these intense feelings: the “nice guys” have whipped up a romantic and sexual drama in their own head, and simply projected it onto some convenient romantic object . The “nice guy” Redditor was once obsessed with his female “friend” – but when she was raped he did not react as a true friend would, with sympathy and sadness. He responded with a callous “she had it coming.”

Combine this lack of empathy with a sense of wounded entitlement – I DESERVE a cute girlfriend! – and you have a recipe for a pretty noxious stew.

“Nice guys” may not literally be sociopaths. But sometimes they think and act in some pretty sociopathic ways.

 

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speedlines
speedlines
9 years ago

The majority of sex toy buyers today are women. So, yeah.

bekabot
bekabot
9 years ago

“They’re the kind of person who thinks that Hannibal Lecter is the hero of The Silence of the Lambs.”

Or else they’ve seen The Dirty Dozen too many times.

Hershele Ostropoler
9 years ago

@Skyal:

It’s extremely rare for a woman to just leave for absolutely no reason.

That’s probably true; however, I imagine plenty of relationships end through no fault, so to speak, of the person being left. But if the courts decided that the divorcing partner would get full custody of the kids and a high enough percentage of marital assets to make a serious dent in the other’s lifestyle (let alone the litany Antz recited), either the family court system is even more fucked than I realized or the person being divorced is more than partly to blame.

bekabot
bekabot
9 years ago

“On a deeper level though, it’s not like these guys are completely untouched by the patterns of social interaction proper to our culture. It looks to me like they’ve absorbed plenty of them: men pursue and women are pursued, men deserve to have their social “needs” met, women are commodities but men are agents—-these are all narratives at work in our culture, and to believe in them, these people must first have been socialized into them.”

They might be kind of Aspergerish in the sense that they’ve satisfactorily absorbed these social rules but interpret them too literally. They don’t understand that a very large asterisk coupled with a YMMV tag is situated next to each cliché. They don’t read the fine print. They think the strictures are more straightforward than they are. They don’t realize that, since our social commonplaces may have been formulated by jerks but were not formulated by fools, the Real Rules actually read something like:

* men pursue and women are pursued, except in second grade and in all cases in which the women are the pursuers

* men are entitled to have their emotional needs met by women, but if a woman proves deliquent in this duty, there’s no way a man can exact damages from her in court; hence, the wise man meets his own needs emotionally as well as in other ways

* women are commodities and men are agents but anybody who’s ever done any kind of financial stuff knows that commodities can have a sneaky mind of their own; if your ownership of your own house is foggy, imagine how uncertain must be your ownership of your date (or whatever); therefore, guys, don’t trust in your possessions, and that includes your women; rather, depend on yourselves.

Lots of MRA/MGTOW guys strive to live by the Real Rules, and to that extent, I’ve got some respect for them, b/c the Real Rules make some sense. It’s the guys who put their faith in nominal gender privilege who puzzle me. Surely they’ve got to perceive that what they’re dealing with is not some kind of legally binding contract but a myth…you can get a lot of mileage out of a myth. But not if you keep trying to enforce it as though it were a traffic ordinance.

Holly Pervocracy
9 years ago

women are commodities and men are agents but anybody who’s ever done any kind of financial stuff knows that commodities can have a sneaky mind of their own

I’m pretty sure that I have a mind of my own in a much, much less metaphorical way.

redlocker
9 years ago

AntZ, do you have any ideas on gender relations or science that aren’t completely fucked?

How did you and your wife meet up? Why did you get married if that’s what you really think of her?

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

Anthony:
In particular, Kennedy Jr. and Kennedy Sr. jointly scuttled the “Child Medication Safety Act”. The bill would have prohibited schools from forcing children to take certain addictive and/or hazardous medications, including Ritalin. Proving that the Kennedys acted under the direction of feminists has been tougher.

This…is dumb. Dumber than “The only problem with my True Love is that I can’t read my wife’s mind.”

(1) Girls get put on Ritalin as well (including me, ADHD as all hell. Actually, this touches on my second-biggest problem with MRA complaints against the school system and desire for single-gender education: the assumption that every child involved is stereotypically gendered)

(2) Joseph Kennedy was not only a private citizen during the Kennedy administration, meaning that there’s no way he would have been in position to sign off on legislation, he had suffered a debilitating stroke in 1961, rendering him unable to speak, as he would have had to do to plan such a dastardly scheme.

(3) Of which there’s no record during the Kennedy administration. The bill you are looking for is this. It’s from 2007.

(4) It would have to be: while Ritalin was approved for use in 1955, they only realized it was a stimulant in ’71, and it didn’t become widely used until the ’90s.

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

This is all very odd for someone who claims to be such an accomplished biochemist. Wouldn’t this have come up in your quals or something?

redlocker
9 years ago

“This is all very odd for someone who claims to be such an accomplished biochemist. Wouldn’t this have come up in your quals or something?”

I’m pretty sure being a biochemist is one of AntZ’s RP characters, next to the conspiracy theorist and (possibly) NWOSlave. If he polished his act just a tad, I’m pretty sure he would be fun on the Manboobz forums RPG section.

redlocker
9 years ago

“next to the conspiracy theorist and (possibly) NWOSlave.”

Oh, wait, I put those two things as seperate. Silly me.

Anthony Zarat
9 years ago

“I’m pretty sure being a biochemist is one of AntZ’s RP characters …”

I am a biophysicist, not a biochemist.

“To be fair, Anthony has promised the ladies coin-operated boys of their own.”

It is much better than that, Shaenon. Women will embrace, and enjoy, virtual life partners much more than men.

Most women can conjure a more or less satisfying fantasy just by closing their eyes. Men usually require a significant visual assist. When the technology is in its infancy, and the interface between thoughts and computer projected images is not great, women will stitch together the missing pieces much more readily than men. Remember, the key is LOVE and INTIMACY. That can only happen with exploration, discovery, growth, encouragement … virtual partners have a big role to fill. On average, a woman’s brain will probably find it easier to fill in the missing pieces, transforming “images” into a real relationship.

ohiken
ohiken
9 years ago

So, everyone has a shitty divorce story, but I’ll anecdotass myself, anyway.
Friend of mine got divorced. She and her husband have 6(!) Kids under 10. Dude just didn’t want to play Daddy anymore.He moved in with a girlfriend and felt that since he wasn’t fucking their mother, the kids had no need to eat. Threatened to quit his job so that his wages weren’t garnished for childsupport so my friend didnkt fight for it. One word, benefits. 6 kids going to the dentist is killer. He didn’t care to see the kids at all, except the one time he demanded to have the second daughter – creepy. My friend went bankrupt because she couldn’t afford the house, the bills and the childcare so she could work.

Yeah, that feminist court system really works well.

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

Remember, the key is LOVE and INTIMACY. That can only happen with exploration, discovery, growth, encouragement

If you can only get that with an agentless reflection of your own ego, you’re missing out. Have you read this? I think you’d learn a lot. SPOILER ALERT: The dude who’s surrounded by nothing more than extensions of his agency may believe he’s got absolute power, but is actually miserable, because really making stuff and really having relationships with other people is more fulfilling than drifting around in the puppet room.

I am a biophysicist, not a biochemist.

Shouldn’t you still have learned things like “Ritalin isn’t poison” and “The Kennedy administration was 1961-1963” by now though?

redlocker
9 years ago

“Most women can conjure a more or less satisfying fantasy just by closing their eyes. Men usually require a significant visual assist.”

Huh. Guess my entire childhood was a hallucination or a dream, considering how I came up with wild stuff just based on text and stuff that I heard.

Molly Ren
9 years ago

Antz, show me a woman that’s not visual and I’ll show you the Chippendales.

Wanderer
Wanderer
9 years ago

I am a biophysicist, not a biochemist.

Where’d you get your doctorate from? What was your thesis on?

I’m sorry if I sound hostile, but at this point it might be nice for you to post some proof that you’re as an accomplished scientist as you claim to be. On a lot of other websites/forums I’ve seen teenaged ne’er’do-wells derail decent threads by claiming to be “experts” in some esoteric field. Looking at your facebook page doesn’t tell me anything besides your status as an MRA (and the fact that you graduated from high school, and I think it takes more than a high school diploma to be a biophysicist) and I still can’t find any research which “Anthony Zarat” seems to be associated with. If you want to make claims of your storied scientific accomplishments (and before you ask me to do the same, note that so far I haven’t claimed to be anything but an Internet wanderer in all the time I’ve been here), I think it’s time for you to provide some evidence that you actually are–I, at least, am not going to simply take your word for it.

redlocker
9 years ago

“Antz, show me a woman that’s not visual and I’ll show you the Chippendales.”

Silly molly, male erotic dancers aren’t real men. Genius astrochemist (oops, astrophysicist) AntZ knows that, and so should you! 😉

redlocker
9 years ago

“Looking at your facebook page doesn’t tell me anything besides your status as an MRA (and the fact that you graduated from high school, and I think it takes more than a high school diploma to be a biophysicist) and I still can’t find any research which “Anthony Zarat” seems to be associated with.”

Hahaha, wow, I can’t believe I missed this.

So, AntZ, what do you know about the field of biology itself? I’m curious.

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

Genius astrochemist (oops, astrophysicist) AntZ

Is he also versed in metaphysico-theologo-cosmolo-nigology?

Molly Ren
9 years ago

“Most women can conjure a more or less satisfying fantasy just by closing their eyes. Men usually require a significant visual assist.”

So, Antz, aren’t you saying here that most men are dreadfully unimaginative? I don’t hold out much hope for your sex bot designs, then.

redlocker
9 years ago

“Is he also versed in metaphysico-theologo-cosmolo-nigology?”

That’s not all! He’s so smart his arguments become true simply because he said them. He’s like a mini god or something…but don’t piss him off, or he’ll turn you into an Apple and eat you up.

ALL HAIL THE GREATNESS THAT IS ANTZ (The person, not the movie).

katz
9 years ago

AntZ:

Here is a scientific publication of mine from the Journal of the Western Association for Art Conservation (PDF). I’m barely a scientist in any capacity–literally, I’m an ascended volunteer–so if I’m published, you absolutely must be. Please link us to a publication with your name on it. Otherwise we shall assume that you have nothing but a high school degree, as your Facebook page indicates.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

They might be kind of Aspergerish in the sense that they’ve satisfactorily absorbed these social rules but interpret them too literally. They don’t understand that a very large asterisk coupled with a YMMV tag is situated next to each cliché. They don’t read the fine print.

That’s not “Aspergerish”, that’s lazy and entitled.

So, Antz, aren’t you saying here that most men are dreadfully unimaginative? I don’t hold out much hope for your sex bot designs, then.

Sex bot: “Oh baby. I want you so bad. My boobs are so super big like your penis. Your ex is dumb. Let’s make sex.”

MRM ‘scientists’: “It’s fucking perfect!”

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

I mean, the very definition of “relationship” is contingent on having more than one thing involved in it:

“The way in which two or more concepts, objects, or people are connected, or the state of being connected.”

David, biophysicists don’t need to know shit like what the definition of a relationship is! It probably never comes up in their research. 🙂

Quackers
Quackers
9 years ago

“To be fair, Anthony has promised the ladies coin-operated boys of their own.”

Pfft. Of course we’re stuck with the inferior coin-operated technology 😛

Magpie
Magpie
9 years ago

According to Antz, blind men don’t wank 🙂

katz
9 years ago

Yeah, one of the odder bits of his bizarre fantasy/hallucination/prediction is that it only involves sight. He hasn’t even

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

Yep, he’s at war against us.

Well, if microscopic particles start adhering to me in a warlike way I’ll know who to blame.

katz
9 years ago

talked about incorporating touch, which I might suggest is of some slight importance to erotic encounters. His 100% soon-to-be-real technology wouldn’t even make good sci-fi.

(commenting fail)

Magpie
Magpie
9 years ago

Do you think his wife and kids might be like his scientific qualifications?

ozymandias42
9 years ago

Or sound… which is hella important for a relationship…

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

So basically in the war of attrition between women and men, women will win cuz men need sexbots and women just need imaginary men? xD

Ami Angelwings
9 years ago

Actually wait a second…

*peers at all the men on MBZ*

okay how many of you are real? >_>

NF4ever
NF4ever
9 years ago

All I can really muster up in response to this is the thought, “Go your own way, already! Please!”

Maybe they can design a virtual paradise and go live there all alone, without all of us hideous mortals to muck up their one-man psychodramas. One where they are kings and other “people” are their sock puppets who exist to reinforce how wonderful they are 24/7.

Antz, please, get on this. Maybe that guy who creates machines from scratch could help.

kristinmh
kristinmh
9 years ago

how can anyone have a real relationship with an imaginary person or a figment of their own imagination?

Well, there was a story on the last Radiolab about a dude who fell in love with a bot. I don’t think you can call it a relationship, though, unless the other party has the power to act completely without regard for you.

I mean, even though my dogs can’t talk, I think they feel the doggy equivalent of love for me (because I walk them, feed them, play with them, and care for them); they do sometimes annoy the hell out of me, especially now that Gus has started howling every time my nextdoor neighbour opens his back door. But most of the time they don’t do things that I’ve taught them not to do, and I don’t do things that they dislike unless it’s necessary (baths, nail clippings, ear cleanings etc), and not out of fear or compulsion, but because (I think) they love me and want to please me. Just like my husband has the power to play the accordion at 3 AM* but chooses not to, because he values my happiness and comfort, or I choose not to watch “Leverage” loudly in the next room when he’s composing, because I value his work and his time. That choice to respect and consider the other’s needs is part of what makes it a real relationship. A bot doesn’t have that choice, because you’ll have programmed the accordion playing/howling/Leverage watching out of them and the situation will never arise.

But Antz would probably advise me to replace Ben with HusbandBot and the dogs with HoundBots 1&2 who never howl inappropriately or pee on the floor or steal entire loaves of bread only rip them up and hide them under the sofa cushions.

* the first fight we got into when we started living together was because he started playing the accordion while I was napping. True story.

Molly Ren
9 years ago

I can, on the other hand, totally get behind the idea of hooking up with a robot with free will. There’s a reason Data got a lot of “romantic mail”.

Again, it is really sad that these guys have managed to ruin robot sex.

meg
meg
9 years ago

Anthony’s a rat = Anthony Zarat

cynickal
cynickal
9 years ago

*peers at all the men on MBZ*
okay how many of you are real? >_>

Not me Hym ah Jager!

Rutee
Rutee
9 years ago

“Not me Hym ah Jager!”
Iz better dan hyooman. Do I wouldn’t say det in front of meez Agatha heef I vere you.

MertvayaRuka
MertvayaRuka
9 years ago

“Iz better dan hyooman. Do I wouldn’t say det in front of meez Agatha heef I vere you.”

Hyu are probably right about dat.

Say, how mhenny Jägers are on dis blog hennyvay?

redlocker
9 years ago

“This is the kind of the future (already happening in Japan) Anthony Zarat is talking about, and it’s nothing to be afraid of.”

No one is afraid of it, exactly (at least, from what I can tell by the comments). We’re just…baffled at how much AntZ is personally hoping and pushing for that type of future while being married. Plus, this type of pipe dream isn’t new. David K. Meller rants about it constantly, with no apology.

Plus, if such a thing happens…fine. At least the people who jump in aren’t hurting anyone, and if they don’t want to deal with real women, then that makes the dating scene more open for people like me who DO want to be with real women. Win win! 😀

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

Anime body pillows are all well and good but I’m in a long-term relationship with the stuffed lamb toy I’ve had since age 6 months. Nice try, Korean dude, but no one commits to an inanimate object like I do!

Happy Anti-MRA
Happy Anti-MRA
9 years ago

@Anthony Zarat

I’m starting to suspect that you are actually an anti-MRA and that you are coming out with this idiotic nonsense to discredit further (if this was posssible) the MRM?

You love your wife and your children but you are scared that your wife will have you locked up, thrown out of your home, take your money and stop you seeing your children. OK…

Well, why don’t you start to open your eyes and live in the real world? This narrative works in MRA blogs but doesn’t have any credability in the real world. Show me the *law* that says a woman (only a woman) can have a man (and only a man) locked up, thrown out of his home and prevented from seeing his (and only his) children. This law doesn’t exist. What exists are laws to prevent and punish crime. Domestic abusers are habitual offenders who cost the taxpayer a lot of money. Society has had enough of these lowlives (overwhelmingly men, but some women too) and laws have been enacted.

Unless things are radically different in the USA (and they might be) then this is inane MRA propaganda. MRAs in the UK come out with this bullsh!t too. Unfortunately, it’s very, very well documentated that the UK courts are very lenient on any first offender and not many people end up in jail, let alone domestic abusers. Similarly, the family court is pedantic to an extreme about including both parents, no matter what (including convictions of domestic abuse, in front of the children).

Zarat, you’re weak and live in a dreamworld. Good on you – you give me a laugh.

Bruce McGlory
9 years ago

” Or has he let slip that he’s a domestic violence perpetrator?”

Ding, ding!

Given the way these whiny asshats post, they persistant delusions of persecution, their total lack of empathy (except for other whiny asshats), their dreams of apocalyptic genocide – how can we honestly think they are anything BUT abusers?

Of course they are, that’s why they’re always so terrified of being taken to court and losing everything.

In the same way that rape-apologists can be safely assumed to be worried about the sexual assault skeletons in their closets, in the same way that someone who says, “i’m not a racist but” will shortly thereafter prove themselves to be racists – we can assume that someone irrationally afraid of losing everything to the mythical feminist-controlled court system isn’t *irrationally* afraid at all – because he knows he’s guilty.

EIther that, or he’s got some serious mental issues that cause these delusions.

Either way, this doesn’t bode well for him or any of the rest of them.

Denia
9 years ago

Yet another scary example of a NiceGuy-ness:
http://grouphug.us/confessions/174618126

redlocker
9 years ago

@Denia: Wow. Holy balls.

jordan
jordan
9 years ago

My two cents: I think that Nice Guys are LIKE sociopaths, but not ACTUAL sociopaths. For one, (as far as I know) we haven’t found a cure for sociopathy. As a previous commenter proved, it is possible for MRAs (or at least one MRA) to eventually become ex-MRAs.

Nice Guys are like sociopaths in that they share a distinguishing trait; lack of empathy for others. Like sociopaths, the lack of empathy often makes it hard for them to see women as people, equals, or individuals. That’s why they are so creepy to many women. But sociopaths feel no empathy for anyone, and Nice guys only feel empathy for other men.

And we already have a word for a people who lack all empathy for another group of people, specifically the opposite sex; sexists. Nice Guys are like sociopaths, but they are definitively sexists.

I would also like to say about Antz’s claims, since the research he mentions is also part of my major; he says that he designs drugs, but then goes on to describe a cell-seeding method for a tissue scaffold. The two fields are related, but they are most certainly not the same. Tissue scaffolds are *much* more complex than most pharmaceutical drugs. If he has any experience with tissue scaffolds, he would know that we are still a long way from designing a working artificial organ. We can barely make a scaffold with one tissue (most of which are designed to be placed in the human body and quickly integrate with or be replaced/seeded by the body), much less several layers of tissue (none that I know of that have passed clinical trials, at least).

He also does not mention the mostly likely way an artificial womb could be made; a womb from a cadaver or patient kept alive via a life-support system. We can do this with other organs (like the heart) for a few hours, it is much easier to improve on this technology than try to build a womb via tissue engineering.