A reader alerted me to this post on a very interesting blog I haven’t written about before. Regular readers of Man Boobz may find some of these, er, arguments to be a bit familiar:
Our culture is absolutely fucked up. Girls and women hold all control of sex. … [F]rom the first interest in girls, we’re expected to pursue them, and they’re expected to reject us. …
I’m a perfectly healthy man. I’m stronger than a lot of other men, more intelligent, more competent, I think I’m reasonably good looking, and I’m very well endowed. None of that matters though. Somehow, women go for men that fail on a comparison on multiple accounts. …
There are things like rejecting a woman, or pretending to be uninterested that make her even more interested. … Women subconsciously measure a man’s performance in bed by his dancing and posturing. If only they knew how fucking stupid and wrong they are.
I don’t know what happened with me. I’ve always had a strong sex drive, but I got fucked over socially. I wasn’t even “in” in the reject crowd. All girls rejected me, and most rejects rejected me. People made fun of me, laughed at me, picked on me, and all the girls that I lusted after were either repulsed by me, or didn’t know who I was. Even the girls that were “friends” with me, wouldn’t have sex with me. Meanwhile, they went around whoring themselves out to whatever man played this fucking dumb-ass social flirting game. They [crude sexual remarks redacted —DF] like the dirty little whores they are. I’ve been available my whole life, but the only person that ever chose me as a mate were paid prostitutes, and my wife, who is emotionally and mentally fucked up beyond comprehension.
On the surface, this reads like almost every “nice guy” lament I’ve ever seen on the internet. Oh, it’s a bit more bitter than most, but this “nice guy” hits all the right notes: like the Holocuast-trivializing “nice guy” we looked at last Sunday, he complains that women get to actually choose whom to have sex with; like the “nice guy” Redditor we looked at Monday, he still holds a grudge against former crushes who chose to go out with (and have sex with) guys who weren’t him.
The difference? For one thing, this new guy is a bit more self-aware than most “nice guys,” in that he doesn’t actually describe himself as “nice.” For another, he is (or at least claims to be) a sociopath. As might have been immediately apparent had I quoted these comments, which immediately follow what I quoted from him above:
This is the reason I don’t care about people. Why the fuck should I? Everybody [wears] a mask. I want to rape and murder people, and I pretend I’m “normal.” Normal people wear a mask where they pretend they’re friendly and honest; whereas, they’re really deceptive, insecure, and emotionally hostile.
This posting comes from Sociopathworld, a fascinating blog written by a sociopath who is basically trying to explain to non-sociopaths how people like him or her think, to clear up misconceptions about them, and to help sociopaths themselves deal better with their disorder. (The author of the blog didn’t write the comments above; they were sent in by a reader.)
For those not intimately familiar with abnormal psych, “sociopathy” (often used synonymously with the term “psychopathy”) is a term commonly used to describe what is known clinically as Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). The blogger at SociopathWorld quotes a journal article that gives this useful capsule description of psychopaths as people
characterised by an absence of empathy and poor impulse control, with a total lack of conscience. … They tend to be egocentric, callous, manipulative, deceptive, superficial, irresponsible and parasitic, even predatory.
So are “nice guys” a bunch of sociopaths? Well, no. They may be egocentric – like the “nice guy” on Tumblr who compared his lack of dates to the Holocaust. They may lack empathy – like the “nice guy” Redditor who couldn’t feel sympathy for a female “friend” who had been raped. They may be manipulative – hoping that by being excessively “nice” and doing favors for women they will earn themselves some sex.
But they lack, among other things, the impulsiveness and routine deceitfulness that tend to characterize real sociopaths. Sociopaths can be deceptively charming, but very few people would ever describe them as nice. (Indeed, if anything, it’s pickup artists that act the most like real sociopaths; indeed, I’ve heard “game” described before, I think accurately, as an attempt to get guys to think and act more like charming, conscienceless sociopaths.)
So why do “nice guy” laments make them sound so much like sociopaths? I think their egocentricity and their almost total lack of empathy are key. “Nice guys” get crushes on a lot of girls and women, but these crushes often seem to have nothing to do with the objects of these intense feelings: the “nice guys” have whipped up a romantic and sexual drama in their own head, and simply projected it onto some convenient romantic object . The “nice guy” Redditor was once obsessed with his female “friend” – but when she was raped he did not react as a true friend would, with sympathy and sadness. He responded with a callous “she had it coming.”
Combine this lack of empathy with a sense of wounded entitlement – I DESERVE a cute girlfriend! – and you have a recipe for a pretty noxious stew.
“Nice guys” may not literally be sociopaths. But sometimes they think and act in some pretty sociopathic ways.
“Just.” oops, phone keyboard
Then why are there so many guys who are good at socializing? I mean, I’m pretty social and I know a lot of men who are also very social. Some of them have always been good people, some were much more shy when they were younger. But they’re all very social now. Hell, I just got home from a small gathering that was chock full of men; some single, some attached, some married. Younger, older, a few who were gay.
Everyone was yucking it up, having conversations, flirting casually -flirting seriously when appropriate. If no one helps men learn how to socialize, how do they learn to do it?
I don’t want to be free of men. I mean, if you want to live in a world free of women more power to you.
But I don’t want to be free of men. I’ve been hurt by men in the past, but I’ve been hurt by women too. I’m not sure how you’ve reached the conclusion that our emotional lives do not require an interaction with matter but I strongly disagree. And I wouldn’t want to be in a relationship with someone who didn’t actively choose to be with me and I with them. I couldn’t be happy with a hologram.
I’ll take arguments and make up sex over digital dreams and snorkeling just about any day of the week. That said, your dream may become a reality. And, hell, there may even be people who are interested.
Of course, most people won’t be able to afford it.
“But… I don’t want to be free of real people.
Even if my virtual partner was perfect for me, s/he’s still not REAL. ”
My ideal virtual partner would be identical to my wife in every way. The things that I like AND the things that I don’t like. However, I would still prefer the virtual clone to the real person. Why? My wife is everything that I want … but how do I know I am everything that she wants?
At any time, my wife can stroll to the county courthouse and take everything that I love. My two boys, my beautiful home (which I built myself), by life, my dignity, my liberty. In the best case, I would be granted “visitation” — a euphemism for “play dates”. I would see my boys only when, and if, my ex- agrees. My children would become the property of another person. There would be no chance to play a meaningful role in their lives. They would be lost to me forever.
The risks are simply too great for any man. To make things worse, living in fear makes for poor “game”. Male helplessness within the man-hating civil court system is weekness, and weekness is repulsive to most women. Even in the rare cases where chance produces a “good” partnership, the forces of man-hate quickly begin working against the union. Wives faces no censure or sanction for walking, leaving husbands to live in fear. The fear itself makes the man undesirable and the union even more fragile.
So why did you get married?
Weekness? Are they made up of seven days? It’s not repulsive, but it is odd.
“I couldn’t be happy with a hologram.”
Not a hologram. Think eye drops to avoid irritation and a contact-lense shaped image screen (linked to a laptop) that stimulates the eye during dreams. The imaginative human mind will stitch together the rest. Initially, drugs may be needed to boost Oxytocin. Once a person is in love, the addiciton like qualities of emotional attachment will do the heavy lifting and the drugs will be suspended.
“Women subconsciously measure a man’s performance in bed by his dancing and posturing.”
Anyone else imagine a guy dancing around a bed naked in hopes of sex? Perhaps doing the funky chicken?
“My wife is everything that I want … but how do I know I am everything that she wants?”
You could maybe, uh, ask her? Think back and go, “Huh, does my wife ever show me any affection? Do we ever interact with each other when we return home from work?” You managed to have sex at least twice, so at least you had *some* interaction at one point…
Do you hate your wife? Does she know?
Yeah…
No. Still no. I don’t care what kind of technology you think will accomplish this. I’m not interested in having a relationship with a figment of my imagination that lacks autonomy.
With virtual partners, how would babby form?
At any time, my wife can stroll to the county courthouse and take everything that I love.
You make a point, and I salute what seems to be your genuine affection for your wife, but for the reasons I described above it seems considerably more practical to concentrate on reforming the laws you describe rather than betting it all on VR tech/artificial wombs/etc, which have problems of their own (again, which I describe above). Indeed, in respect to artificial wombs, I’m not the only one skeptical of their feasibility (in a previous thread other commentors mentioned the problems widespread use of the technology would raise), some of your fellow MRAs have raised objections to such a ‘utopia’ as well; see BejiaFlor’s comment here. Again, if even MRAs are raising these considerations I don’t think I’m being particularly “hostile” in pointing them out either.
“With virtual partners, how would babby form?”
Artificial womb. The brute force way is cell by cell deposition (which I am lucky enough to be working on). If the underlying mechanism of differentiation can be understood, easier (and cheaper) self assembly methods become viable.
My guess is that two men (or two women — or even a man and a woman) would agree to raise a child jointly. Both would be genetic contributors to the child, and both would be parents to the child. Each would have a virtual life-partner, and the relationship between them would be something like a cooperative friendship.
Both men and women form these kinds of bonds with each other, even when they are not same-sex inclined.
Nobinayamu, you’re forgetting about ROBOTIC SEX DRAGONS!!!!
I can, actually, imagine cuddling with an AI with its own personality. But that’s because it would be awesome, not because I distrust the person I’m married to and by extension their entire gender.
In the meantime, I’ve been away from Deep End for two weeks and all I can think about are his voice and his hands and his hot back muscles. Meatspace definitely has its perks.
Oxytocin drugs? Really? So creepy.
Also it seems to me the solution here is to reform the family court system, not to take your ball and go home to have a perfect relationship with an imaginary person and take off the VR helmet and be alone.
“One day soon, men AND women will have fulfilling, long-term exclusive relationships with computer assisted dream state virtual partners who exist only in our minds. Love, adventure, compassion, encouragement, and partnership are all phenomena that manifest entirely within our minds.”
Antz, have you ever thought of writing or drawing erotica? All the perks and yet it takes so much less time than creating AIs!
The solution is for you to talk to your wife and stop projecting your fears and insecurities about the impermanence of love and, potentially, your marriage onto all of humanity.
And, yeah, I also support reforms in some aspects of family court law. We have a system that is flawed and those flaws are worth addressing.
The brute force way is cell by cell deposition (which I am lucky enough to be working on). If the underlying mechanism of differentiation can be understood, easier (and cheaper) self assembly methods become viable.
Again, you haven’t really responded to my comment above. Okay, we have one MRA working on cell deposition (I am again taking your word for it, I’m still searching on Pubmed and other databases and haven’t seen any research it seems you’ve done). We need an MRA working on proper gene expression, transfer of nutrients, decantation, artificial amniotics, and so on, and so on. You people desperately need more than a single man who seems to have some expertise in cell deposition if you want artificial wombs to become a practical, feasible reality.
If they both raise a child in a cooperative friendship, isn’t that pretty much the same as marriage? You and your wife are cooperative and friendly, aren’t you? 🙂
Seriously, Antz, if it’s really all in the mind, why do you even need technology? Plenty of authors and artists have created elaborate worlds and characters without it.
And why would anyone in this sci-fi, artificial womb, digital partner, future want “exclusive relationships” anyway? What would be the point? You can imagine artificial wombs, virtual partners, and imaginary snorkeling, but relationships will still be subject to analog ideas about monogamy?
For what?
Maybe AntZ really needs a transplanted womb or something, so he can make his own babies.
No one, absolutely no one helps guys learn how to socialize. Since society predominately seems young men as scary and unsympathetic, we spend all our time controlling them, and as a society we don’t help them socialize.
You’re right. For example, boys never attend school or play sports or read books or leave the house. It’s pretty rough.
Antz, you can have the virtual partner you want *right now*. Just get on any dating site and trade chat SNs with a girl who has no intention of meeting you IRL!
“At any time, my wife can stroll to the county courthouse and take everything that I love. My two boys, my beautiful home (which I built myself), by life, my dignity, my liberty.”
Ah, the belief that the fact that I have a vagina is all I need to put a man behind bars! I know all I had to do the last time I was in court was lift my skirt and I was immediately showered with sandwiches, a pony, and given a million dollars.
Also dude, your life? Do you feel like your wife is out to get you?
Are you teaching this to your sons?