Categories
alpha males bad boys douchebaggery evil women men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny nice guys oppressed men PUA rape rapey reddit sex thug-lovers violence against men/women

Are Nice Guys sociopaths?

Cats: The world's most adorable sociopaths

A reader alerted me to this post on a very interesting blog I haven’t written about before. Regular readers of Man Boobz may find some of these, er, arguments to be a bit familiar:

Our culture is absolutely fucked up. Girls and women hold all control of sex. … [F]rom the first interest in girls, we’re expected to pursue them, and they’re expected to reject us. …

I’m a perfectly healthy man. I’m stronger than a lot of other men, more intelligent, more competent, I think I’m reasonably good looking, and I’m very well endowed. None of that matters though. Somehow, women go for men that fail on a comparison on multiple accounts. …

There are things like rejecting a woman, or pretending to be uninterested that make her even more interested. … Women subconsciously measure a man’s performance in bed by his dancing and posturing. If only they knew how fucking stupid and wrong they are.

I don’t know what happened with me. I’ve always had a strong sex drive, but I got fucked over socially. I wasn’t even “in” in the reject crowd. All girls rejected me, and most rejects rejected me. People made fun of me, laughed at me, picked on me, and all the girls that I lusted after were either repulsed by me, or didn’t know who I was. Even the girls that were “friends” with me, wouldn’t have sex with me. Meanwhile, they went around whoring themselves out to whatever man played this fucking dumb-ass social flirting game. They [crude sexual remarks redacted —DF] like the dirty little whores they are. I’ve been available my whole life, but the only person that ever chose me as a mate were paid prostitutes, and my wife, who is emotionally and mentally fucked up beyond comprehension.

On the surface, this reads like almost every “nice guy” lament I’ve ever seen on the internet. Oh, it’s a bit more bitter than most, but this “nice guy” hits all the right notes: like the Holocuast-trivializing “nice guy” we looked at last Sunday, he complains that women get to actually choose whom to have sex with; like the “nice guy” Redditor we looked at Monday, he still holds a grudge against former crushes who chose to go out with (and have sex with) guys who weren’t him.

The difference? For one thing, this new guy is a bit more self-aware than most “nice guys,” in that he doesn’t actually describe himself as “nice.” For another, he is (or at least claims to be) a sociopath. As might have been immediately apparent had I quoted these comments, which immediately follow what I quoted from him above:

This is the reason I don’t care about people. Why the fuck should I? Everybody [wears] a mask. I want to rape and murder people, and I pretend I’m “normal.” Normal people wear a mask where they pretend they’re friendly and honest; whereas, they’re really deceptive, insecure, and emotionally hostile.

This posting comes from Sociopathworld, a fascinating blog written by a sociopath who is basically trying to explain to non-sociopaths how people like him or her think, to clear up misconceptions about them, and to help sociopaths themselves deal better with their disorder. (The author of the blog didn’t write the comments above; they were sent in by a reader.)

For those not intimately familiar with abnormal psych, “sociopathy” (often used synonymously with the term “psychopathy”) is a term commonly used to describe what is known clinically as Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). The blogger at SociopathWorld quotes a journal article that gives this useful capsule description of psychopaths as people

characterised by an absence of empathy and poor impulse control, with a total lack of conscience. … They tend to be egocentric, callous, manipulative, deceptive, superficial, irresponsible and parasitic, even predatory.

So are “nice guys” a bunch of sociopaths? Well, no. They may be egocentric – like the “nice guy” on Tumblr who compared his lack of dates to the Holocaust. They may lack empathy – like the “nice guy” Redditor who couldn’t feel sympathy for a female “friend” who had been raped. They may be manipulative – hoping that by being excessively “nice” and doing favors for women they will earn themselves some sex.

But they lack, among other things, the impulsiveness and routine deceitfulness that tend to characterize real sociopaths. Sociopaths can be deceptively charming, but very few people would ever describe them as nice. (Indeed, if anything, it’s pickup artists that act the most like real sociopaths; indeed, I’ve heard “game” described before, I think accurately, as an attempt to get guys to think and act more like charming, conscienceless sociopaths.)

So why do “nice guy” laments make them sound so much like sociopaths? I think their egocentricity and their almost total lack of empathy are key. “Nice guys” get crushes on a lot of girls and women, but these crushes often seem to have nothing to do with the objects of these intense feelings: the “nice guys” have whipped up a romantic and sexual drama in their own head, and simply projected it onto some convenient romantic object . The “nice guy” Redditor was once obsessed with his female “friend” – but when she was raped he did not react as a true friend would, with sympathy and sadness. He responded with a callous “she had it coming.”

Combine this lack of empathy with a sense of wounded entitlement – I DESERVE a cute girlfriend! – and you have a recipe for a pretty noxious stew.

“Nice guys” may not literally be sociopaths. But sometimes they think and act in some pretty sociopathic ways.

 

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

199 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Amused
Amused
9 years ago

I especially liked the last portion of his complaint, which culminates in the tragic revelation that aside from prostitutes, the only woman who would fuck him is his wife. Oh, the horror! Damn those whores, who won’t sleep with a married man!

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Look how he describes his wife. He’s definitely a catch.

Amused
Amused
9 years ago

@Hellkell: On the other hand, being married to such a gem, I wouldn’t be surprised if she really is emotionally and mentally fucked up beyond imagination.

kristinmh
kristinmh
9 years ago

I’ve been available my whole life, but the only person that ever chose me as a mate were paid prostitutes, and my wife, who is emotionally and mentally fucked up beyond comprehension.

Sounds like most of the women he meets have good sense.

kysokisaen
9 years ago

I just can’t imagine how the wife of a man that awesome could have any emotional problems at all. His devotion and patient support alone should exorcise the demons of any reasonable woman; if that’s not enough there’s always his apparently impressive schlong.

filetofswedishfish
9 years ago

“This is the reason I don’t care about people. Why the fuck should I? Everybody [wears] a mask. I want to rape and murder people, and I pretend I’m “normal.” Normal people wear a mask where they pretend they’re friendly and honest; whereas, they’re really deceptive, insecure, and emotionally hostile.”

1. Ze wants to rape and murder. Still wants people to sleep with zir. WTF.

2. Isn’t this a thing in psychology, too? Justifying your behavior by saying everyone ELSE is also wearing a “mask” of normalcy and being all around terrible? (no comment from this commenter on whether all people suck)

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

@Amused: True enough, but he could just be projecting all his shit on her in an “I’m fucked up, so anyone who could ever like me is fucked up” way.

katz
9 years ago

Even the girls that were “friends” with me, wouldn’t have sex with me.

This says it all.

gem
gem
9 years ago

The guy quoted in the post really sounds like my father, who is a sociopath. I hope that his wife gets away from him.

Anthony Zarat
9 years ago

“Girls and women hold all control of sex.”

Porn. Salvation is porn.

One day soon, men AND women will have fulfilling, long-term exclusive relationships with computer assisted dream state virtual partners who exist only in our minds. Love, adventure, compassion, encouragement, and partnership are all phenomena that manifest entirely within our minds. The wasteful and destructive conflicts that invariably result from attempts by men and women to share space and life will no longer be necessary. I expect that men and women will drift into separate and rarely interracting species, each of which will prosper more by the absence of the other.

It is wonderful to contemplate, and I am excited to know how few technology developments remain between our broken culture and the utopia to come.

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

1. Ze wants to rape and murder. Still wants people to sleep with zir. WTF.

Hold on a sec. As far as functioning in society is concerned, I don’t think the point should be what s/he wants to do, but how s/he acts.

captainbathrobe
9 years ago

AntZ,

How does your wife feel about your theories of gender relations?

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

AntZ,

How does your wife feel about your theories of gender relations?

She probably drowns them out by turning the volume on her porn up.

Wanderer
Wanderer
9 years ago

One day soon, men AND women will have fulfilling, long-term exclusive relationships with computer assisted dream state virtual partners who exist only in our minds. Love, adventure, compassion, encouragement, and partnership are all phenomena that manifest entirely within our minds.

The problem is, that leaves the real world somewhat neglected. If virtual reality eventually turns out to be as compelling as you say, more and more people will reject living in reality for living in their computer-generated fantasy worlds, with obviously dire ramifications for the society in which these technologies turn out to be widespread. This is a fairly common theme in a lot of science fiction, really–the first thing that comes to my mind is The Matrix, where in the first movie (IIRC) the machines say they created a virtual utopia world not very different from the one you described, which failed because mass numbers of humans rejected it. A similar concept would be in Brave New World, where the populace is kept happy by things like soma, while at the same time becoming decrepit and degenerate.

There’s also the unfortunate fact that MRAs are almost singularly unsuited for making such a gender-separatist utopia a reality, *even if we were to concede it’s desirable.* You are, assuming you’re the same AntZ I’ve seen commenting on other sites, a simple pharmacist, if I recall correctly. This is not to insult you or shame you with an ad hominem attack, but to acknowledge a reality–i.e the sort of experts necessary to build an MRA utopia are the sorts of experts you MRAs have very few of. I’ve been hanging around the manosphere for a while now, and the most educated people I’ve seen have tended to be businessmen, engineers, or computer scientists (such as PMAFT, Ray Manta, and a few others). I haven’t seen a single MRA embryologist, molecular biologist, or gynecologist, and those are the sorts of people you’d need to build a working artificial womb. Similarly, I haven’t seen a single MRA neurologist or AI expert, and those are just two (of many) of the kinds of experts you’d need for VR porn or “companions” of the sort which would make gender separatism feasible. If you really wanted to advance the cause of men, good sir, perhaps your time and energy would be better spent reading up on these fields rather than commenting on Mr. Futrelle’s posts.

Anthony Zarat
9 years ago

“Anthony, so your response to reading a sociopath’s fucked-up theories about women and sex is to … agree with the sociopath?”

I disagree with him completely. He believes that other people can control his destiny. Men and women both bemoan the way the opposite sex makes partner choices. Women complain about men, and men complain about women — as though other people were extensions of out projected needs and desires.

Of course, hard work or luck can result in a partnership that is tolerable, occasionally even compassionate. I have been lucky in this regard. But I have two sons, and the writing is on the wall.

My sons will assemble the components of their happiness without relying on the vagaries of good fortune. Not to mention, the current phase of female control over law, culture, and government means that men face horrendous odds every time they cast the “dice of life” — and sometimes, even when they don’t cast.

Pecunium
9 years ago

I’m with VoiP: what one has going on in one’s mind is only relevant if one lets it control what one does. Everyone has atavistic urges.

Even Jackoffasaurus is only problematic because he’s shared the angry thoughts with us. If he never acted on them (which, to date he seems to have not done), and never shared them with us, who would know? And who would care?

Anthony Zarat
9 years ago

“a simple pharmacist … I haven’t seen a single MRA embryologist, molecular biologist, or gynecologist, and those are the sorts of people you’d need to build a working artificial womb.”

You have now. I design drugs, not sell them. I am currently working on a sound based system to deposit individual cells on a two dimensional surface. Extension to three dimensious will be difficult be inevitable. There are some other problems. I will not live to benefit from any of this, but I will live to see it.

Anyway, why the hostility? EVERYONE will gain in this society. The “virtual” world will be indistinguishable from the real world. Our productive lives will be lieved in the real world, because production requires interaction with matter. However, our emotional lives will be
lived in the virtual world, because emotional connection does not require interaction with matter.

The fabric of human life will be woven between the two. I imagine that men and women will be deeply in love with their virtual partners. We will share travel, excitement, and experiences that would be impossible in the “real” world. One night, fall asleep into a dream that takes you and the love of your life to explore the Great Barrier Reef in Australia. The next life, backpack across Europe. Each of us will awaken to a productive day in which we bring no baggage of anxiety or disappointment. The two components of our lives will be equally important, and equally fulfilling. Violence, abandonment, rape, domestic abuse, heart break, and uncertainty will be a thing of the past. Can you imagine? I often dream of this world, when men and women will finally be free of each other.

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

What does your wife think of this again? Aw hell, she’s probably pining for it too.

VoiP
VoiP
9 years ago

I often dream of this world, when men and women will finally be free of each other.,/i>

Almost all of my friends are men. Why would I want to “be free” of any of them?

ozymandias42
9 years ago

But… I don’t want to be free of real people.

Even if my virtual partner was perfect for me, s/he’s still not REAL. I would rather have imperfect love with an imperfect person than fake love with an unreal figment of my imagination. My partner’s existence gives me pleasure outside of anything s/he ever does for me. There’s a reason we don’t hire actors to be our romantic partners, even really rich people, and that’s because “my partner exists” matters to people.

Also, I’m interested in what you think the irreconcilable differences between men and women are.

kristina.scal
kristina.scal
9 years ago

perhaps this doesn’t matter to others as much as it might to me, (I confess, I’m a counselor), but ASPD is not equal to sociopathy. those who are sociopaths almost always have a diagnosis of ASPD, however, those who are diagnosed with ASPD are very rarely sociopaths. sociopathy does not have a diagnosis per the DSM-IV-TR, but psychologists do utilize the term when attempting to quantify/understand behavior, certainly.

relatedly, not all sociopaths are evil. in fact, many sociopaths function just fine and may even be altruistic. sure, the altruism stems from selfish means usually, but they CAN be positive, helpful members of society. my apologies, but I generally get a bit miffed when I hear the “if mentally ill, then horrible” argument.

magdelynswallows
9 years ago

I think “nice guys,” whatever that means, are people who maybe poor at reading social cues, or on the autistic spectrum, or grew up in disfunctional environments. No one, absolutely no one helps guys learn how to socialize. Since society predominately seems young men as scary and unsympathetic, we spend all our time controlling them, and as a society we don’t help them socialize.

pervocracy
9 years ago

As my uncle Hank is so fond of saying, “Or maybe he’s jus a poophead.”

Wanderer
Wanderer
9 years ago

I design drugs, not sell them. I am currently working on a sound based system to deposit individual cells on a two dimensional surface. Extension to three dimensious will be difficult be inevitable.

I stand corrected–I suppose there may be one MRA with a decent degree of education in a subject related to VR tech or artificial gestation. The problem is, my greater point still stands–a single AntZ, even if you were a notable expert in the field (and you must forgive me if I remain somewhat skeptical of this; the name “Anthony Zarat” does not come up in any articles when I searched pubmed and a few other databases of scientific/pharmaceutical publications), you are still only one man; you MRAs need many more if you want this utopia to become a reality. Okay, let’s assume the technology you’re developing will solve some of the problems related to embryonic implantation. What about the issues of oxygen and nutrient supply? Who’s going to build an artificial amniotic sac? How are you going to stop babies from turning out deformed? And back to the subject of VR tech, will the drugs you design allow machines to interface directly with the human brain? Has your research on depositing individual cells on a two dimensional surface.revealed how to cross over the “uncanny valley” of robotics and create convincing female (or male) AIs? I will concede that at least one MRA has a Ph.D in chemistry (or whichever specific field you work in), but you need bunches of Ph.Ds in neurology, gynecology, embryology, artificial intelligence, etc. etc. etc. for your utopia to be remotely feasible. If the only guys the MRA can muster up are a single Anthony Zarat and the assorted businessmen and computer engineers I’ve mentioned above, you and your movement will not be of much use in creating the utopia you describe.

Anyway, why the hostility?

You misinterpret my skepticism for hostility.

Each of us will awaken to a productive day in which we bring no baggage of anxiety or disappointment. The two components of our lives will be equally important, and equally fulfilling.

You are far too optimistic. If real life could ever be as fulfilling as a fantasy world, people would have no need for a fantasy world. I will assume you don’t believe women are the only problems men have to deal with IRL–given that, nobody would ever leave a virtual reality world if such a world becomes as convincing as you postulate. If someone living in a grubby, roach-filled apartment in New York has the opportunity to spend half his day in a virtual Great Barrier Reef, he isn’t going to return to his horrible regular life happily, he’s going to want to spend ALL of his time in the virtual Great Barrier Reef. Addiction to virtual reality and subsequent societal decay is a very real possibility depending on the extent to which VR technology advances.

pervocracy
9 years ago

“Just.” oops, phone keyboard

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

Then why are there so many guys who are good at socializing? I mean, I’m pretty social and I know a lot of men who are also very social. Some of them have always been good people, some were much more shy when they were younger. But they’re all very social now. Hell, I just got home from a small gathering that was chock full of men; some single, some attached, some married. Younger, older, a few who were gay.

Everyone was yucking it up, having conversations, flirting casually -flirting seriously when appropriate. If no one helps men learn how to socialize, how do they learn to do it?

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

I don’t want to be free of men. I mean, if you want to live in a world free of women more power to you.

But I don’t want to be free of men. I’ve been hurt by men in the past, but I’ve been hurt by women too. I’m not sure how you’ve reached the conclusion that our emotional lives do not require an interaction with matter but I strongly disagree. And I wouldn’t want to be in a relationship with someone who didn’t actively choose to be with me and I with them. I couldn’t be happy with a hologram.

I’ll take arguments and make up sex over digital dreams and snorkeling just about any day of the week. That said, your dream may become a reality. And, hell, there may even be people who are interested.

Of course, most people won’t be able to afford it.

Anthony Zarat
9 years ago

“But… I don’t want to be free of real people.

Even if my virtual partner was perfect for me, s/he’s still not REAL. ”

My ideal virtual partner would be identical to my wife in every way. The things that I like AND the things that I don’t like. However, I would still prefer the virtual clone to the real person. Why? My wife is everything that I want … but how do I know I am everything that she wants?

At any time, my wife can stroll to the county courthouse and take everything that I love. My two boys, my beautiful home (which I built myself), by life, my dignity, my liberty. In the best case, I would be granted “visitation” — a euphemism for “play dates”. I would see my boys only when, and if, my ex- agrees. My children would become the property of another person. There would be no chance to play a meaningful role in their lives. They would be lost to me forever.

The risks are simply too great for any man. To make things worse, living in fear makes for poor “game”. Male helplessness within the man-hating civil court system is weekness, and weekness is repulsive to most women. Even in the rare cases where chance produces a “good” partnership, the forces of man-hate quickly begin working against the union. Wives faces no censure or sanction for walking, leaving husbands to live in fear. The fear itself makes the man undesirable and the union even more fragile.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

So why did you get married?

hellkell
hellkell
9 years ago

Weekness? Are they made up of seven days? It’s not repulsive, but it is odd.

Anthony Zarat
9 years ago

“I couldn’t be happy with a hologram.”

Not a hologram. Think eye drops to avoid irritation and a contact-lense shaped image screen (linked to a laptop) that stimulates the eye during dreams. The imaginative human mind will stitch together the rest. Initially, drugs may be needed to boost Oxytocin. Once a person is in love, the addiciton like qualities of emotional attachment will do the heavy lifting and the drugs will be suspended.

Molly Ren
9 years ago

“Women subconsciously measure a man’s performance in bed by his dancing and posturing.”

Anyone else imagine a guy dancing around a bed naked in hopes of sex? Perhaps doing the funky chicken?

“My wife is everything that I want … but how do I know I am everything that she wants?”

You could maybe, uh, ask her? Think back and go, “Huh, does my wife ever show me any affection? Do we ever interact with each other when we return home from work?” You managed to have sex at least twice, so at least you had *some* interaction at one point…

Jill the Spinster
Jill the Spinster
9 years ago

Do you hate your wife? Does she know?

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

Yeah…

No. Still no. I don’t care what kind of technology you think will accomplish this. I’m not interested in having a relationship with a figment of my imagination that lacks autonomy.

Magpie
Magpie
9 years ago

With virtual partners, how would babby form?

Wanderer
Wanderer
9 years ago

At any time, my wife can stroll to the county courthouse and take everything that I love.

You make a point, and I salute what seems to be your genuine affection for your wife, but for the reasons I described above it seems considerably more practical to concentrate on reforming the laws you describe rather than betting it all on VR tech/artificial wombs/etc, which have problems of their own (again, which I describe above). Indeed, in respect to artificial wombs, I’m not the only one skeptical of their feasibility (in a previous thread other commentors mentioned the problems widespread use of the technology would raise), some of your fellow MRAs have raised objections to such a ‘utopia’ as well; see BejiaFlor’s comment here. Again, if even MRAs are raising these considerations I don’t think I’m being particularly “hostile” in pointing them out either.

Anthony Zarat
9 years ago

“With virtual partners, how would babby form?”

Artificial womb. The brute force way is cell by cell deposition (which I am lucky enough to be working on). If the underlying mechanism of differentiation can be understood, easier (and cheaper) self assembly methods become viable.

My guess is that two men (or two women — or even a man and a woman) would agree to raise a child jointly. Both would be genetic contributors to the child, and both would be parents to the child. Each would have a virtual life-partner, and the relationship between them would be something like a cooperative friendship.

Both men and women form these kinds of bonds with each other, even when they are not same-sex inclined.

Molly Ren
9 years ago

Nobinayamu, you’re forgetting about ROBOTIC SEX DRAGONS!!!!

I can, actually, imagine cuddling with an AI with its own personality. But that’s because it would be awesome, not because I distrust the person I’m married to and by extension their entire gender.

In the meantime, I’ve been away from Deep End for two weeks and all I can think about are his voice and his hands and his hot back muscles. Meatspace definitely has its perks.

ozymandias42
9 years ago

Oxytocin drugs? Really? So creepy.

Also it seems to me the solution here is to reform the family court system, not to take your ball and go home to have a perfect relationship with an imaginary person and take off the VR helmet and be alone.

Molly Ren
9 years ago

“One day soon, men AND women will have fulfilling, long-term exclusive relationships with computer assisted dream state virtual partners who exist only in our minds. Love, adventure, compassion, encouragement, and partnership are all phenomena that manifest entirely within our minds.”

Antz, have you ever thought of writing or drawing erotica? All the perks and yet it takes so much less time than creating AIs!

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

The solution is for you to talk to your wife and stop projecting your fears and insecurities about the impermanence of love and, potentially, your marriage onto all of humanity.

And, yeah, I also support reforms in some aspects of family court law. We have a system that is flawed and those flaws are worth addressing.

Wanderer
Wanderer
9 years ago

The brute force way is cell by cell deposition (which I am lucky enough to be working on). If the underlying mechanism of differentiation can be understood, easier (and cheaper) self assembly methods become viable.

Again, you haven’t really responded to my comment above. Okay, we have one MRA working on cell deposition (I am again taking your word for it, I’m still searching on Pubmed and other databases and haven’t seen any research it seems you’ve done). We need an MRA working on proper gene expression, transfer of nutrients, decantation, artificial amniotics, and so on, and so on. You people desperately need more than a single man who seems to have some expertise in cell deposition if you want artificial wombs to become a practical, feasible reality.

Magpie
Magpie
9 years ago

If they both raise a child in a cooperative friendship, isn’t that pretty much the same as marriage? You and your wife are cooperative and friendly, aren’t you? 🙂

Molly Ren
9 years ago

Seriously, Antz, if it’s really all in the mind, why do you even need technology? Plenty of authors and artists have created elaborate worlds and characters without it.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
9 years ago

And why would anyone in this sci-fi, artificial womb, digital partner, future want “exclusive relationships” anyway? What would be the point? You can imagine artificial wombs, virtual partners, and imaginary snorkeling, but relationships will still be subject to analog ideas about monogamy?

For what?

Magpie
Magpie
9 years ago

Maybe AntZ really needs a transplanted womb or something, so he can make his own babies.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
9 years ago

No one, absolutely no one helps guys learn how to socialize. Since society predominately seems young men as scary and unsympathetic, we spend all our time controlling them, and as a society we don’t help them socialize.

You’re right. For example, boys never attend school or play sports or read books or leave the house. It’s pretty rough.

Molly Ren
9 years ago

Antz, you can have the virtual partner you want *right now*. Just get on any dating site and trade chat SNs with a girl who has no intention of meeting you IRL!

“At any time, my wife can stroll to the county courthouse and take everything that I love. My two boys, my beautiful home (which I built myself), by life, my dignity, my liberty.”

Ah, the belief that the fact that I have a vagina is all I need to put a man behind bars! I know all I had to do the last time I was in court was lift my skirt and I was immediately showered with sandwiches, a pony, and given a million dollars.

Also dude, your life? Do you feel like your wife is out to get you?

Magpie
Magpie
9 years ago

Are you teaching this to your sons?

1 2 3 4