The contest for the Most Ironic Use of the Term “Nice Guy,” When Applied to Yourself –otherwise known as the MIUTNGWAY Award – is heating up. The previous front runner – the Tumblr guy who compared his inability to get laid to the Holocaust – now faces a serious challenge from a Redditor calling himself DogmaDog.
The other day Mr. Dog wandered into a discussion of the SlutWalks in the Feminisms and offered his two cents: he declared them “stupid,” and suggested that they won’t really help victims.
And then he started in on his own tale of woe.
I know I’m going to be shit on for saying what I’m about to say, but please hear me out.
Not a promising start, Dog.
I’ve never raped a woman, and I’m the ‘nice guy’ who never took advantage of a woman.
Do you want an award for this?
But a girl I was infatuated with in high school blew me off and treated me disrespectfully. She ended up being raped one night, while intoxicated. I do not know how I am supposed to feel about it.
As Don Draper would say, “what?”
How do you think you’re “supposed” to feel? Did you accidentally dislodge the part of your brain responsible for basic human empathy?
Apparently, the answer to that is “yes.”
[H]ow do you suppose I am supposed to feel about this woman I knew who got raped? I mean, I’ve never taken advantage of a woman, but I don’t understand how my ‘friend’, this girl I went to high school with, could go out and party all the time, and in turn treat me, her classmate, as though I were an inferior person for not enjoying the atmosphere of drunkenness at high school parties.
As it turns out, you’re an inferior person for an entirely different reason.
That girl was a mean girl, no? And by being disrespectful toward men, and prejudiced toward men, wasn’t she asking men to behave badly toward her? The only men she gave attention and physical affection to were the ones who hurt her back.
So let me see if I get this: she didn’t go out with you, a “nice guy,” so she was therefore “asking” to be raped?
Naturally, this being the Feminisms subreddit, and not The Spearhead, some of the regular commenters took exception to Mr. Dog’s victim-blaming and his complete lack of empathy for the victim – especially strange, since Dog, who says he is suffering from an (unspecified) mental illness, considers himself “a victim, in my own way,” of prejudice towards those with mental health issues. This experience, alas, has not given him any sympathy towards other vicitms.
Indeed, it seems that DogmaDog didn’t misplace his sense of empathy after all; rather, he threw it out of the house and got a restraining order against it. Responding to someone who suggested he show a little empathy, Dog lashed out:
Your empathy can go suck a dick. Empathy does nothing to help my situation. I suppose that is just the excuse people give themselves so that they can feel like they are actually doing something.
You basically called me an inferior human being because I can’t or won’t empathize for my friend who was raped. Well, ask yourself this, smart-ass, have you ever really wondered what good your empathy does? It does nothing. …
In reality, you are doing nothing but attacking me, and I may or may not have a ‘complex’, even though I don’t know what that is, but I can guarantee you, I HAVE NEVER RAPED ANYONE!!!
The sound you hear is me banging my head, ever so softly, on my desk. Empathy is what connects human beings to one another, what allows them to understand one another on a deep level.
When people are suffering – as you are, Dog, in dealing with your mental illness – a little bit of empathy from someone else can make all the difference in the world.
If you can’t feel even a little bit of sympathy for this woman you were once “infatuated” with, you’re not a nice guy at all; you’re an even bigger asshole than those drunken high school partiers you disdain. You may never have raped anyone — as you’ve repeatedly insisted, as if this should win you a prize – but “in your own way” you’re thinking like an abuser. Your lack of empathy for the victim, your continued bitterness towards her for turning you down, your sense of wounded narcissism; none of this is healthy, for you or for anyone who comes into contact with you.
You need help, dude. Please, please get it.
An anecdote about lying-until-proven-virtuous (brilliant phrase Bagelsan).
Watching TV news, a story about a young woman murdered in her own home, describing the things she had done for her community, and showing a picture of her.
My Dad: “It must have been a woman who murdered her!”
Mum: “What makes you say that?”
Dad: “No man would attack a nice girl like that!”
owlslave charge is a synonym for allegation. charges of alleged rape is redundant. find something else to pretend to be a victim about.
“Here let me finish that statement for you, “Yes, I did it, but it wasn’t rape because it was enthusiastically consented to.””
That’s blatantly wrong. She didn’t enthusiastically consent to it. Assange woke a woman up by sticking it in; you can’t enthusiastically consent while asleep. The other specifically said “No”t o not doing it with a condom, and he did it anyway. The initial defense was “Yes, it happened exactly that way, but…”
And yes, they realized they weren’t the lone victims, so they stopped taking one for the team. I applaud them for that.
Actually, I agree with Rutee’s definition. But since men are disadvantaged in society, not women, as a liberal I’m more for men’s rights and men’s issues.
Once again, MRAL, you’re oppressed because you can’t get laid.
MRAL, you can’t just make up what words mean. I can’t just say “I’m a Mouseketeer but since Looney Tunes is way awesomer, as a Mouseketeer I’m a fan of Bugs Bunny.”
Give us an example of an issue where you actually agree with actual liberals. Then I’ll believe you’re a liberal.
Oh geez. >_< (Let me guess… she was also pretty and white?)
Women always seem to need the most im-fucking-peccable credentials to be considered legitimate victims, don't they? If you're not the tee-totaling virgin bastard daughter of Mother Teresa and a Girl Scout you're pretty much "asking for it" — and while middle class white girls generally lose the privileges of "virtue" extremely easily, many girls and women never have access to "virtue" at all.
Which is way back to the "slut" discussions in previous threads. "Slut" is not about actual morals or even actual sexual habits; as a label it simply means someone who can never be a real victim because they aren't considered virtuous enough, and it's applied to anyone from whom society wants to withdraw its protection. It's been applied to virgins, 11-year-olds, chaste married women, any teenage girl who's had a beer… Once enough people decide to hate someone she is promptly retroactively labeled a "slut" and can never be clean or honest or decent again, even in the eyes of the law.
“Actually, I agree with Rutee’s definition. But since men are disadvantaged in society, not women, as a liberal I’m more for men’s rights and men’s issues.”
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/08/04/gender-gap-in-science-and-tech-jobs/
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/05/26/explaining-gender-gaps-by-education-and-age/
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/article/Journal-Managerial-Issues/193141029.html
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/04/052/the_enduring_gender_gap_in_faculty_pay
http://www.bmj.com/content/314/7086/1037.short
NWO: We know that numbers are hard for you, let’s look at English.
It is alleged that Assange committed a rape. As a result rape charges were filed. He has been charged with rape. The determination of fact by the jury has not taken place.
Ergo he is an alleged rapist.
It’s kind of like murder. A murder has happened, it’s not alleged.
There are also promotion gaps, and that’s just in economics. Then you take a look at congress, the cabinet, the SUpreme Court, the presidency, and the rhetoric that is ultimately spewed about a lot of women in public life, just politically.
If I have to source the war on women’s bodily autonomy, I’ll do it, but I’ll call you a massive fucking moron in the process, and also blind. I could also point at the unequal conditions in the overwhelming majority of all homes, which ALSO dovetails nicely with at least some of the work discrimination.
That’s just the obvious stuff. I’m not even getting into sex lives (Men can have them, women can’t), men’s pre-eminence in the media (Whine some more about getting the buffoon role in some family sitcoms. There’s still THE REST OF THE MEDIA, even if that were a point for women, and it unfortunately isn’t), the pre-eminence of anti-woman myths in both society and the media (Such as the foundational myth of the nice guy, laid out by hollywood and TV writers who couldn’t get laid), women being crowded out of a number of fairly major hobbies, women being shut down throughout primary schooling in the US, etc. Even if every claim the MRA made were true, it’d still not be enough. And it’s not all true.
Yeah, I’ve already seen all that stuff and either don’t believe it and/or disagree, think there’s an explanation other than discrimination (all the “gaps”), think feminists have distorted and exaggerated the issue beyond belief, or I agree that it’s a problem, but overall men’s issues are more pressing. I’m not going through it point by point again.
Seriously, this is the foundation upon which the MRM is based. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be an MRM, and it’s why MRAs will never get along with feminists.
You think there is an explanation…
I can’t say as I’ve seen you go through anything point by point. I also remind you that you’ve said you are too lazy to link.
Which means it’s your assertion, not actually backed up with facts.
And those facts Rutee posted, carry a lot more weight with me than the opinion of a lazy 20 year old.
The foundation of the men’s rights movement is a combination of those who don’t have the perspective to understand how good they have it compared with others, and those who do understand but think they deserve it through virtue of their Y chromosome and are bitter because feminism has reduced the inequalities somewhat.
If I was a conservative, I’d be a feminist. Feminists want to pile more and more privileges upon an already privileged class, not unlike hardcore Republicans wanting to pile more privileges (tax breaks) upon the rich.
Seriously, this is the foundation upon which the MRM is based. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be an MRM,
And without the belief that the Earth is flat, there wouldn’t be a Flat Earth Society. THERE MUST BE SOMETHING CARTOGRAPHERS WON’T TELL US! CONNECT THE DOTS PEOPLE!
“Yeah, I’ve already seen all that stuff and either don’t believe it”
You think the data is wrong because?
“or disagree,”
Based on?
“think there’s an explanation other than discrimination (all the “gaps”),”
Such as?
“think feminists have distorted and exaggerated the issue beyond belief, ”
Based on?
“I’m not going through it point by point again.”
You’ve never substantiated your claims, you dimwit. You assert outright, no matter what, then whenever pressed with data you insist it’s wrong. Prove it.
“Seriously, this is the foundation upon which the MRM is based.”
I’m aware that stupidity and a lack of data is the primary reason why there is an MRM. It’s feminists who do the most work on actual issues concerning men and masculinity in this culture, because they’re the ones who actually acknowledge the problems that exist. Feminists like Michael Kimmel or Ted Porter are the ones who examine gender issues at all to say things are broken, (Kimmel does not always do so from a perspective of how to help men, of course; I doubt Porter does either). Even now, NSWATMZ, while it annoys me with some of its presuppositions, does substantially more for men’s issues than the MRA likely ever will without shaping up.
“Yet when an MRA give an example of the exact opposite, like a mother purposely blocking visitation that ends up being misogyny. So if theres an equal number of both happening and feminists deny one than feminism condones that action. Feminism is a lie.”
NWO, I have never said that offering an example of a bad mother is misogyny. There are bad mothers and I can offer at least ten examples right off the top of my head. Pointing out that there are bad mothers does not necessarily make me or anyone else a misogynist.
I’m not going to work from your worthless supposition, so offer some proof for your hypothesis. You seem to be laboring under the delusion that every man who does not have joint custody is being oppressed by a feminist state. Prove that there are just as many mothers “purposely blocking” visitation as there are fathers who are not interested in parenting let alone partial or full custody.
MRAL, your life is so hard. Someone should write a book about the oppression you face daily. Maybe Hollywood will make it into a movie.
Also, katz, what issues? I’ll avoid fiscal issues because that’s more complicated, although in the end I’m fiscally liberal too. Obama hasn’t done everything right but the economy is clearly on its way up. I’m of the opinion that it’s more a natural cycle than anything anyone has done (be it Republican or Democrat) but either way, I don’t want a Republican coming along in 2012, attempting something totally different, and possibly fucking things up in the process. Obama’s policies are clearly good enough. I could go on for hours about this but I’ll leave it at that.
– Abortion? Pro-choice.
– Gay stuff? Pro-gay marriage, not “civil unions” but state-recognized marriage.
– Stem cell research should be federally funded, and honestly I’d expand the program even further than Obama has.
– I think global warming is a serious problem that should be dealt with (although I think it will be, naturally, with the progression of technology in the next 50 years. That said, we should be actively pursuing eco-friendly innovations).
– All the Republican fucks who call America a “Christian nation” and constantly attempt to legislate religion can eat a dick.
– Legalize medicinal marijuana. Actually, I’d legalize recreational marijuana too, but that’s a little too much even for Democrats.
– I do favor the death penalty. Sorry guys.
As I said; what the hell guys? Liberals can easily spread misogynistic, inaccurate bullshit too. I don’t get why the hell there’s been so much static here; I can easily believe that MRAL is a liberal solely off of his own word.
By the way, who’s this Rick Perry douchebag? Did they take Bush’s DNA and clone an even bigger asshole for 2012?
MRAL: I”m not surprised that you are liberal in your non-women related politics. I confess that if I were merely told you were an MRA from Maine my thought would be politically conservative, but the ways you couched the non-female issues had me thinking that, apart from your blinkered state re women, you are what I would call a reasonable person; politically.
He also has decent taste in books. It should be noted.
I do favor the death penalty. Sorry guys.
Naaaaaw dude. The death penalty is occasionally viscerally satisfying, but always damn expensive.
I don’t know how to say this without speaking of him in the third person: MRAL strikes me as a decent person, with a flaw. It’s a big flaw, one that may prove to be emotionally lethal.
It’s why I alternate between hope and not quite despair. I see improvement, and then I see backsliding.
I don’t expect (nor even want, per se) him to become an out and out feminist. I’d be happy to see non-bitter, and not blaming women/feminists for the slings and arrows the flesh is heir to.