Well, this explains a few things:
Narcissistic Heterosexual Men Target Their Hostility Primarily at Heterosexual Women, the Objects of Their Desires, Study Finds
ScienceDaily (July 29, 2010) — Heterosexual women bear the brunt of narcissistic heterosexual men’s hostility, while heterosexual men, gay men and lesbian women provoke a softer reaction, according to psychologist Dr. Scott Keiller from Kent State University at Tuscarawas. This is likely to be due to women’s unparalleled potential for gratifying, or frustrating, men’s narcissism, the author concludes. They are crucial players and even gatekeepers in men’s quests for sexual pleasure, patriarchal power and status.
More here. The actual study here (subscribers only).
Yes, like a lot of psych studies, it was based on a relatively small sample of college students (104 undergraduate men, to be exact). But after this post yesterday – and, you know, the entire content of this blog — it’s hard not to think that Keiller is on to something.
What is it with trolls today and announcing themselves The Winner?
Welp, looks like the feminists win the thread, the discussion can pretty much end now, it’s a clear decision made by me (an impartial observer, as unlike some, I carry no animus toward feminism) and everyone can relax because we’ve got an outcome. Feminists win, yep.
Thanks for playing, everyone.
Then perhaps you shouldn’t be asserting your opinions until you are sure… ignorant rubbish like:
doesn’t deserve a response.
I can’t believe I’m going to say something in partial agreement of with someone so silly and antagonistic (although, to be fair, I did kind of agree with NWO yesterday that men are great; he just happens to be a fuck-wit) but that description does describe some of the women in the Black Woman Empowerment movement. I don’t think it’s the totality or even the majority. And I have my own ideological differences with some of the writers and bloggers who consider themselves at its helm.*
But that is not an entirely inaccurate description of one of its facets. Still, I haven’t had time to read through Obsidian’s blog at length and determine whether Random Brother’s account is honest.
That said, mediumdave, thanks for the links.
*For the record, my interest in minority men writing within or for the manosphere and MRM notwithstanding, misogyny is misogyny is misogyny. Still worthy of mocking.
Another odd troll habit today:
“You’re wrong because you’re wrong. I substantiate this by stating that you’re wrong and my evidence is that you’re wrong.”
Although Chucky is the first to pull “Clearly you’re not smart enough to understand that women are naturally submissive because culture is an ecological cultural fixed gender norm that varies, and until you keep up with these basic concepts, I just can’t be bothered.”
doesnt everyone respond reflexively in situations where theyre overwhelmed. i know i do…
also chuckeedee answer me are you really carl sagans dipshit little brother or do you just play him on the internet
The winner and still world champion…. Holly!
xD
What’s going on? o_O Somebody seems eager to disengage, hence the victory declaring and “you’re too stupid to argue w/” stuff xD
We all, men and women, have combinations of male and female in us.
What does this mean? That we all can have personality traits that our society may see as “masculine” or “feminine”? :3 Or that there are objective male and female personality traits… or that we all have testosterone and estrogen in us… or..? xD
Ami, I’m not certain about any specifically east Asian MRA movements. But I do remember running across Angry Asian Man a couple of years ago. It wasn’t so much MRM influenced but it did touch on issues of negative stereotyping of Asian men and, to some extent, culture in the West. There was a lot about emasculation and, occasionally, some posts spawned comments sections that expressed a lot of anger toward Asian women and the idea that they’re always dating White guys. I do remember some very misogynistic remarks. I don’t know that I would say it drove the blog.
Not especially helpful, admittedly.
Chuckedee sounds like he just smoked a gram of Sour Diesel.
I know, everyone forgets about the sadistic women!
and who’s going to win the “I win because I’m smart and you’re dumb, and because I said so, and because I said it first” contest? Late entries not accepted 🙂
Molly Ren, I know. Where’s AWS with his “Feminism is nothing but sadism!” when you need him?
No self-discipline. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised.
Angry Asian Man is pretty anti-oppression friendly from what I’ve read… he seems like a regular ally of Racialicious and other blogs, and I haven’t run into any misogynist stuff.. but I dun read everything he says :
There’s ANOTHER guy who has a similar name tho… like Angry Asian Guy or Bitter Asian Guy or something I don’t remember nemore : I dunno if he’s still around but HE was like an Asian MRA… he was constantly railing about Asian women and white women and not being able to get dates and etc :
I’m mostly wondering about Asian-Americans/Canadians/Australians/etc cuz I DO know that there are angry Asian ‘Nice Guys” and that they feel that just being Asian and Male alrdy makes them Omegas, and they have a thing with Asian women being traitors and getting white women as “prizes”… and etc etc and I was wondering if any of them associate w/ the MRAs or are they turned off b/c the MRAs seem to exoticize Asian women so much, talk about Asian men being effeminate and not competition, and etc etc? :
http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-americans-2011-5/
But somebody like this guy (who is not that bad to some of the other ppl I know, like guys I knew in HS) where he goes into this weird tangent about women…
and the guy he talks about:
What if you missed out on the lessons in masculinity taught in the gyms and locker rooms of America’s high schools? What if life has failed to make you a socially dominant alpha male who runs the American boardroom and prevails in the American bedroom? What if no one ever taught you how to greet white people and make them comfortable? What if, despite these deficiencies, you no longer possess an immigrant’s dutiful forbearance for a secondary position in the American narrative and want to be a player in the scrimmage of American appetite right now, in the present?
How do you undo eighteen years of a Chinese upbringing?
This is the implicit question that J. T. Tran has posed to a roomful of Yale undergraduates at a master’s tea at Silliman College. His answer is typically Asian: practice. Tran is a pickup artist who goes by the handle Asian Playboy. He travels the globe running “boot camps,” mostly for Asian male students, in the art of attraction. Today, he has been invited to Yale by the Asian-American Students Alliance.
“Creepy can be fixed,” Tran explains to the standing-room-only crowd. “Many guys just don’t realize how to project themselves.” These are the people whom Tran spends his days with, a new batch in a new city every week: nice guys, intelligent guys, motivated guys, who never figured out how to be successful with women. Their mothers had kept them at home to study rather than let them date or socialize. Now Tran’s company, ABCs of Attraction, offers a remedial education that consists of three four-hour seminars, followed by a supervised night out “in the field,” in which J. T., his assistant Gareth Jones, and a tall blonde wing-girl named Sarah force them to approach women. Tuition costs $1,450.
“One of the big things I see with Asian students is what I call the Asian poker face—the lack of range when it comes to facial expressions,” Tran says. “How many times has this happened to you?” he asks the crowd. “You’ll be out at a party with your white friends, and they will be like—‘Dude, are you angry?’ ” Laughter fills the room. Part of it is psychological, he explains. He recalls one Korean-American student he was teaching. The student was a very dedicated schoolteacher who cared a lot about his students. But none of this was visible. “Sarah was trying to help him, and she was like, ‘C’mon, smile, smile,’ and he was like …” And here Tran mimes the unbearable tension of a face trying to contort itself into a simulacrum of mirth. “He was so completely unpracticed at smiling that he literally could not do it.” Eventually, though, the student fought through it, “and when he finally got to smiling he was, like, really cool.”
Tran continues to lay out a story of Asian-American male distress that must be relevant to the lives of at least some of those who have packed Master Krauss’s living room. The story he tells is one of Asian-American disadvantage in the sexual marketplace, a disadvantage that he has devoted his life to overturning. Yes, it is about picking up women. Yes, it is about picking up white women. Yes, it is about attracting those women whose hair is the color of the midday sun and eyes are the color of the ocean, and it is about having sex with them. He is not going to apologize for the images of blonde women plastered all over his website. This is what he prefers, what he stands for, and what he is selling: the courage to pursue anyone you want, and the skills to make the person you desire desire you back. White guys do what they want; he is going to do the same.
Sounding a little familiar? Sexual marketplace… Alpha males… xD
And yeah.. blonde white women as the ultimate ideal that you’ve “made it” as an Asian male.
His efforts at dating were likewise “a miserable failure.” It was then that he turned to “the seduction community,” a group of men on Internet message boards like alt.seduction.fast. It began as a “support group for losers” and later turned into a program of self-improvement. Was charisma something you could teach? Could confidence be reduced to a formula? Was it merely something that you either possessed or did not possess, as a function of the experiences you had been through in life, or did it emerge from specific forms of behavior? The members of the group turned their computer-science and engineering brains to the question. They wrote long accounts of their dates and subjected them to collective scrutiny. They searched for patterns in the raw material and filtered these experiences through social-psychological research. They eventually built a model.
This past Valentine’s Day, during a weekend boot camp in New York City sponsored by ABCs of Attraction, the model is being played out. Tran and Jones are teaching their students how an alpha male stands (shoulders thrown back, neck fully extended, legs planted slightly wider than the shoulders). “This is going to feel very strange to you if you’re used to slouching, but this is actually right,” Jones says. They explain how an alpha male walks (no shuffling; pick your feet up entirely off the ground; a slight sway in the shoulders). They identify the proper distance to stand from “targets” (a slightly bent arm’s length). They explain the importance of “kino escalation.” (You must touch her. You must not be afraid to do this.) They are teaching the importance of sub-communication: what you convey about yourself before a single word has been spoken. They explain the importance of intonation. They explain what intonation is. “Your voice moves up and down in pitch to convey a variety of different emotions.”
It’s guys like that I wonder if they’re in the MRA/PUA comm… or if the “Asian women are the BESTEST!” thing turns them off, cuz it means that the white MRA/PUAs are the enemy? xD
Gah, how unbelievably trite your writing is, Chuckles. There’s just no there there. Again get back to me when you have something, anything, of substance to say. As it is, you’re like the guy in class who never does the reading, writes vague papers, then complains because the professor can’t grok his superior intellect.
Hey Ami – I really enjoy Angry Asian Man. The content is awesome; I just remember a few comment threads that gave me pause. It’s the Asian women being stolen by White men and or complicit in the emasculation of Asian men thing that strikes me a problematic. And I do wonder how they react to the exoticism and fetishization of Asian men that runs throughout so much of the mainstream MRM.
Chuckeedee –
If you are going to quote me, lets at least try to do it in a way that doesn’t completely misconstrue my statement. What I said was, “For instance, if ALL men desired to be dominant, while ALL women desired to be submissive, then why in the world would a man visit a dominatrix? According to your theory, this man and woman would both be violating their nature! And yet, many men and women do this every day!” NOT, “ALL men desired to be dominant, while ALL women desired to be submissive.” You see, context makes a difference.
In addition, so your theory is both that women are reflexively overwhelmed by the dominance…but also that male and female traits (including submissiveness/dominance) aren’t set in stone and are based on culture. So…how can something be both a reflex, but also culturally dependent?
Again, the real point I am trying to make, which I believe you are perfectly aware of, is that even if everything you say is true, that still doesn’t mean that every man should have access to my vagina merely because he approaches me in a dominant way. And this has been my point from the beginning of the thread. Why keep “responding” to my comments if you aren’t actually going to respond to the substance of the statement?
I shouldn’t have to rewrite what I’ve already written, because the answer is in there. However, since you appear to be missing my point, I will express it from a different perspective. Gender roles are a cultural phenomenon. By way of an over-simplified thought-experiment, if women go out of their way to choose thugs, then the outcome of their collective choices is a culture of thuggish men. Indeed, because women in this hypothetical culture adore thugs, they will also raise their sons to be thugs. And if one woman does not like one particular thug, she may believe that he has no “right” to her vagina, and indeed, she has a point of sorts. However, as a complicit member of the cultural collective, the question of rights cannot be considered in isolation from the choices that women collectively make.
In other words, what goes around comes around.
Let’s put it another way, seeing as you seem to be having problems seeing the bigger picture. Today we have the situation of false rape claims being accepted with the result of punishing many innocent men. Don’t innocent men have rights? If we don’t care about their rights, then why should anyone care about your rights?
Qutie apart from the fact that I’m not aware of any cultural norm that entitles every man to have access to your vagina merely because he approaches you in a dominant way. Where are you getting this from? What planet are you living on? Many women submit to dominant men with eagerness and from these easy women, dominant men learn what works with all women. Of course they are incorrect, and they have no right to intrude on your personal space nor anyone else’s. But by the way you phrase it, why should you feel beholden to these men to submit your vagina? You have no duty to, and there is no culture in the world that requires this of their womenfolk.
Or is your response just some feminist variant of trying to define everything that a man does as an act of rape? We have date rape, changed-my-mind rape, and now a new variant… assuming vaginal access rape, or maybe “dominant attitude rape”. Sorry, doesn’t count. You have NOT been raped without penetration.
God you’re full of shit.
RAPE HAPPENS. IT IS A REAL THING THAT HAPPENS TO REAL PEOPLE.
This “oh, ladies say they’ve been raped if a man looks at them funny” horseshit is just a way to belittle and terrorize women who have actually been raped, and to support men who actually have been raped. It’s fucking disgusting and it has no basis in reality.
I have zero respect for someone playing the “wah wah, everyone claims they’re a rape victim these days” card. It’s really hateful, harmful, and fucking cruel.
“Today we have the situation of false rape claims being accepted with the result of punishing many innocent men. Don’t innocent men have rights? If we don’t care about their rights, then why should anyone care about your rights?”
Bet ya think it’s white men who suffer disproportionately from rape claims too.
Just because people can’t properly identify an assailant doesn’t mean the rape didn’t happen, and this is the majority of inaccurate rape accusations; they’re not false, they’re aimed at the wrong person. The victims don’t generally realize it, but are rarely not happy with this being the case. They don’t want to throw innocent victims into jail.
So, to cut through the pseudo-intellectual shit cloud and sum up, women -sadistic bullies by nature- respond primarily, and at a biological and culturally reinforced level to dominant men. And for this, they have no one but themselves to blame because they raise children, especially sons, to bolster this paradigm and as a result the cycle is perpetuating. Men must be dominate to attract women and all women, whether they admit or not, respond sexually to dominate men.
And, as a result, there are men who may be overly aggressive and, while women don’t owe them sex, they’ve seen displays of dominance work with some women and are, therefore, justified in presuming that they’ll work with all women. Some women may end up being sexually assaulted as a result of this pervasive cultural meme but, since so many women are lying about sexual assault and rape, it is easily discounted. And, hey, if women weren’t so busy creating and reinforcing a paradigm of sexual dominance in men it wouldn’t happen. Thus, women have only themselves to blame when some man sexually assaults or rapes them. Which almost never happens, anyway.
And we all have mommy issues.
Is that the gist chuckedee?
Also, Rutee, thank you for noticing that while MRM types love to talk about the men who are erroneously imprisoned for rape, they will never discuss how they got there, the racial demographics behind this, or the break out the number of men falsely imprisoned because of bad police work and issues with identification. They love the False Rape Society, but they almost never mention The Innocence Project.
In their world, every man falsely accused and/or imprisoned on rape charges has been victimized by a malicious woman who was either seeking revenge for some imagined slight, or indoctrinated by evil feminist to believe that consensual, enthusiastic sex was rape.
It’s this scenario, and only this scenario, that they care about. They could give a shit about the reality of the men locked away in our fucked up prison system as the result of bad, negligent, or -at times- malicious police work.
Chuckee has moved on to rape apologism? Kee-rist. That is so far from being OK, I cannot begin. :-C
going way back, is there any such thing as an ‘ex-feminist’? Once you realise women are people, can you really go back?
Nobinayamu: kicking ass and taking names as usual. 🙂
@ chuckeedee
Don’t you get that Holly is right?
Rape is a problem. NO MEANS NO!!!!!!!
According to feminst researchers 4 out of every 3 women is raped every 5 minutes.
Don’t you know we live in a rape culture?
According to feminsts America doesn’t care about rape. And they’re right!
There is no place in the U.S. where they put dangerous rapists. You know like a building with cages inside and guards, with fences to keep the rapists in and that’s away from regular society. These places don’t exist and punishment of rape just doens’t happen! The rapists just roam free without a care in the world.
According to feminist researchers 157% of all rapists see no jail time.
And rapists are not like, criminals, nor gang members, you can’t tell who a rapist is! They could be anyone! Well any man!
I think sir you should stop mocking rape.
Remember no always means no!
Random Brother
*A man comes home to his wife and says “Baby, tonight, I gonna fuck you good!”
Wife: No you’re not!
Husband: I’m gonna take off all your clothes!
Wife: No you’re not!
Husband: I’m gonna lick you from head to toe!
Wife: No you won’t!
Husband: And then I’m gonna ride you all night, and I ain’t wearing a condom!
Wife: Oh yes you will!*
Another tragic case of rape.